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snorkeling
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
The Wolf
Okay, so I used the wrong word. (I only used it once, btw.) But if you saw your neighbor’s kid smoking drugs, or with needles or whatever, would you ignore it and do nothing and notify no one because “it’s none of my business”?
If damaging one’s body (which we have temporarily) warrants intervention, so much more so when damaging one’s neshama (which we have permanently) and olam haboh demands it.
The above point is both a bein adam lamokom and a bein adan lchaveiro perspective. But to take the bein adan lchaveiro point further, if you knew someone in the community who was investing other people’s life savings was conducting a ponzi scheme, would you do nothing? You’d probably intervene to save hundreds more of people from losing their money. And if someone violating tznius is costing thousands of people olam haboh with their lifnei iver, you’re going to do nothing to stop it?
Joseph
If you saw someone about to speak Loshon Harah, would you slap them in order to stop speaking it
I’d yell out, loudly to drown out his voice, “loshon hora!”, so no one else could hear it. If it was just me there, I’d stuff my ears or run out.
Should we go to the local Conservative or Reform temple and physically block people from driving on Shabbos?
If you won’t get problems from the secular authorities for that, then sure.
Most likely result is getting hit by a car. Is one permitted to get hit by a car on Shabbos?
If the neighbor’s kid is doing drugs, then going over to him to tell him that drugs are assur, illegal and damaging to his body will not get him to stop doing drugs. It probably will make him more resentful and feel more isolated and more likely to feed his habit. So you are not saving him, but actually hurting him.
Telling his parents, who probably are very well aware of the problem, will only increase their pain and shame and and their anger towards the interfering do-gooder.Same with tznius- yelling at someone that they are not dressed tzniusly, lecturing or forcing rules down their throats will not change anything. It will only re-inforce the negative behavior, and then, perhaps, you too are guilty of being machshil someone.
These are delicate issues that must be dealt with chochma, by capable people who can bring about change and not by every busybody kanai with an agenda.
WTP, what would you do, if anything, were you to c’v find your neighbor’s kid using drugs?
I know someone who told a smoker that smoking is assur. The smoker blew smoke in his face.
Joe – You would shout, but you wouldn’t hit to stop somebody talking Loshon Horo/wearing something immodest?
The Gemara Kesuvos 86a writes that you can use lethal force (According to the Meshovav Si. 3, Chasam Sofer OC #177, Ramba”m on Mishna 48b. Igros Moshe disagrees partially) to enforce the performance of a mitzvah. The Gemara proceeds to differentiate between positive commandments and negative commandments, although what the distinction actually is is not clear.
R’ Akiva Eiger asks that the law is that you can use physical force to enforce negative commandments too. The Ketzos HaChoshen (Meshovev #3) differentiates between positive and negative commandments in regards to to the allowance for lethal force, and only non-lethal force is allowed for negative commandments.
So – Joseph – would you use force?
Yekke, you can’t hit (or use lethal force) if a lesser rebuke will work. So, of course, I’d yell if that might work.
As far as the stronger options, if halacha permits it and the secular authorities won’t intervene against it (you aren’t required to surrender your freedom to enforce it), then of course they should be used if the lesser options didn’t work.
There may be some tznius problems with a man hitting a girl, so then she would have to hit him back for his breach of tznius and then it could go on forever until they are both dead. Of course, once they are dead, we don’t have to worry about either of them violating hilchos tznius anymore…
I only used it once, btw.
I know… but the famous quote is “You keep using that word…” ๐
The Wolf
I suppose he could do it with a tool so he wouldn’t have to touch her.
How would beis din give a woman malkus?
There may be some tznius problems with a man hitting a girl, so then she would have to hit him back for his breach of tznius and then it could go on forever until they are both dead.
Hitting back is not allowed, I’m afraid. The whole “ืืืื ืืืชื” allowance is only to enforce the commandment before it’s breached. After the breach, she would be ืขืืืจ on ืื ืืืกืืฃ by hitting him.
If you hit a woman, she will naturally take out her gun and shoot. Or stab you with the dagger she wears.
The whole โืืืื ืืืชืโ allowance is only to enforce the commandment before itโs breached.
Yekke, so how did you apply the halacha you’re referencing in your earlier suggestion that she potentially could be hit to stop her, considering she already breached the halacha.
I’m assuming your answer is that her breach is ongoing so it is still applicable.
Joseph – Obviously. You are not hitting her for her breach; you may hit her to ensure she removes the offending garment. (Or, I suppose, she covers up the offending garment)
“How would beis din give a woman malkus?”
That’s a good question. Can women get malkus? Maybe the Beis Din was on a high enough level that they didn’t have to worry about its being a breach of tznius.
Was malkus done by hand or with an object? Even if it were done by hand, it probably wouldn’t be considered ืืจื ืืื when done by Beis Din, but I don’t think you can say that when it’s done by the kind of people who do these things today.
Ladies certainly do get malkus.
ืืืจ ืจื ืืืืื ืืืจ ืจื ืืื ืชื ื ืืื ืจืื ืืฉืืขืื ืืืฉ ืื ืืฉื ืื ืืขืฉื ืืื ืืืืช ืืืื ืืฉืื ืืืชืื ืืฉื ืืืืฉ ืืื ืขืื ืฉืื ืฉืืชืืจื (ืงืืืืฉืื ื”ื)
Malkus is given with a form of whip; see :ืืืืช ื”ื
Joseph,
If damaging oneโs body (which we have temporarily) warrants intervention, so much more so when damaging oneโs neshama (which we have permanently) and olam haboh demands it.
True, but just as we wouldn’t stop someone from damaging his body by damaging his body (for example, were you to cโv find your neighborโs kid using drugs, you wouldn’t shoot them), one must address the spiritual issue without causing further spiritual damage.
“Malkus is given with a form of whip”
Thank you! That’s what I thought, but I wasn’t sure.
I think that what I wrote above still applies though. Nowadays, it would be still be untznius for someone to do even with a whip (aside from all the other obvious problems!), but the Beis Din was on a high enough level that they were doing it lishma.
Yekke – what was that in response to – my saying that whipping someone nowadays would be untznius?
Yup
Joseph: “WTP, what would you do, if anything, were you to cโv find your neighborโs kid using drugs? “- See more at: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-increase-tzinius-2#sthash.dql6fnsC.dpuf
Knowing that this was way out of my league, and that I could not personally change him, I would daven for him.
How well did the “this is your brain on drug” campaign work? Scare tactics dont work.
I once read the following story: A yeshiva (possibly for kids-at-risk) showed a very graphic video of what happens to you l”a when you smoke. One of the boys came away traumatized, “Rebbe, that was really scary! I am so stressed out! I need a cigarette asap!!!”
I saw a sign at a busstop yesterday that anyone who takes a kabala not to wear a sheitel outside for 4 days during the month of Nissan (2 days during Pesach plus 2 other days) can be entered in a raffle for 400 shekels worth of Pesach products.
I was considering entering – I’m so Frum that I NEVER wear a sheitel even in my house!! So I am definitely qualified to enter ๐
Joseph, maybe you can start something like this in the US.
Free Pesach products? Seems of little use if someone does it at the end of Pesach.
They should make the prize a free sheitel.
I guess they do the raffle before Pesach, and you are eligible as soon as you make the commitment.
“They should make the prize a free sheitel.”
Why – so they can burn it with the chometz? Maybe it should be 400 shekels worth of free non-sheitel hair coverings. That would make a bit more sense.
I once was passing by the shopping center and I saw they were showing an anti-sheitel video, so I was curious and stopped to watch. Funnily enough, I was the only female watching (don’t worry – I stood in the back).
Someone who works in one of the supermarkets came out and asked the guy who made the video if he could make a video about not stealing shopping carts since that is assur according to everyone.
So I didn’t stop wearing a sheitel but I started returning shopping carts to the supermarkets. So I guess the video accomplished something.
Do they discriminate by gender?
RY – good question. It did say something about “b’zchus nashim tzidkaniyos…” so it seemed pretty clear that it was only for females.
However, I am pretty sure that it did not say anything about marital status, which is why I am considering entering.
Oh, and by the way, I don’t think it mentioned that you have to cover your hair in order to qualify. You just can’t wear a sheitel.
Lilmod, very funny.
Rebshidduch – what was that in response to?
That kabbala is easy. I already have gone 4 days without wearing a sheitle outside, since it’s at the sheitle macher now being washed. And during Pesach- probably will be some days I am so busy that will not get a chance to get out at all- like erev shabbos chol hamoed and erev last day.
Lilmod Ulelamaid- anyone who takes upon themselves not to wear a sheitel? Did it specify that you have to be female to enter? That sounds like an interesting contest… Really in nissan not to wear a sheitel isn’t such a big deal. Who wears a sheitel while cleaning their house?
If a sheitel is designed to make you look better, why are you wearing it outside the home to look good for street people, which you shouldn’t be going out of your way to do, rather than wearing inside your home to look good for your husband, as you’re supposed to.
why are you wearing it outside the home to look good for street people, which you shouldnโt be going out of your way to do, rather than wearing inside your home to look good for your husband, as youโre supposed to
The same reason you might occasionally walk around in you bathrobe at home but not in the street.
Wearing a tichel outside or inside is very very far from being comparable to going around with a bathrobe.
But it’s still the same reason, and not to attract anyone, as you insinuate.
DY: Can’t think of a better way to bring out that point! Well done.
“why are you wearing it outside the home to look good for street people,”
I dont make assumptions on behalf of other people. I will say this. I personally wont wear slippers in the street, no matter how comfortable they may be. not everything is about tznius.
Most women I know just like dressing nicely for themselves, but they spend a lot of their time at home asleep or doing housework.
“Most women I know just like dressing nicely for themselves,”
My sister told this to me 30 years ago and it is probably even more true today. Women dont care how or if men look at them and their dress, all they care is what other women think.
And this is why it’s ludicrous to have men try to enforce, encourage, or inspire women in the areas of tznius. Because they just don’t have a darn clue what women have going on in their brains that creates these issues in the first place.
Whatever the methods employed are, it should be done by women, for women.
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