February 5, 2023 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #2162609AviraDeArahParticipant
Nom, i highly doubt rav Jacobs said that. Poor people are just as obligated in getting married as anyone else. That’s what community is for; hachnnosas kallah is a chessed mentioned in the mishnah directly. Everyone deserves to have a family and be part of the continuity of klal yisroel.February 5, 2023 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #2162666
Quick quote from the Rambam: A teaching from a chacham should be examined at length before concluding it is incorrect.February 5, 2023 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #2162667
Was there anytime that you invoked halacha on this site for something that wasn’t your personal viewpoint? There must be several dozen threads that you claimed halacha and did not respond when challenged.February 6, 2023 1:26 am at 1:26 am #2162697
> Poor people are just as obligated in getting married as anyone else
I am guessing, he was not disparaging poor people in general, but he meant that the hatan needs first to make an effort to earn a living,February 6, 2023 1:29 am at 1:29 am #2162713CTLAWYERParticipant
Getting back to the OP’s post about reducing the cost of getting married by eliminating the engagement ring.
Over a number of generations and many decades of observation it is my observation that the woman’s family bears the brunt of the cost of the marriage. The chassun and or his family having to buy an engagement ring has little effect on the cost of getting married.
My parents generation paid for their daughters’ weddings, I and my brothers paid for our daughters’ weddings. My sins have paid for the weddings of granddaughters who have reached that age. Yes, the boys’ side may have made a small contribution towards the total by paying for license, Ketubah, personal flowers and occasionally liquor or music; but the vast majority of the expense falls on the kallah’s family. I discussed this after minyan this morning. Of the 12 present, there have been 5 children or grandchildren married in the past 3 months in Brooklyn, Monsey and Lakewood. In each case the kallah’s family paid for more than 75% of the costs.
The cost of an engagement ring not purchased would not reduce the expense to the kallah’s family, it might just lower total money spent, not up the contribution by the other sideFebruary 6, 2023 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2162978ubiquitinParticipant
“If you can’t afford a chasunah, you should not be in shidduchim.”
It is impossible to beleive that a ben Avraham V’Yitzchak could say something so insane..
To say you shouldnt have a chasuna ie just get married in shul with a minyan is one thing (it would be wrong but not crazy) .
But not to be involved in shiddduchim ??? impossible that a frum Jew could suggest such a thingFebruary 6, 2023 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #2163062
Exactly! Almost everyone can afford some type of chasuna. If they are willing to realize what a chasuna is all about. And if they refuse that but say, I must have this and that at my wedding; how much more they will be thinking I must have this and that in a life partner. Such people should stay of shidduchim. They need to rethink.February 6, 2023 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #2163081
UJM. I agree that the strict halacha does call for us giving people what they are accustomed to. However, as a community, we also need to prioritize who gets precedence. If Reuven is a victim of tragic circumstance (yasom, ill parent, lost job etc) and is looking for basic necessities and Shimon is not (chooses to not work & wants to buy a home for his child), who should get preference?
It would seem that the most efficient way to handle tzdeka giving for hachnosas kallah would be to have a larger tzedka organization weed out the Reuvens from the Shimons with investigations as to who is who. If they both walk around shul with the same letter and say “hachnosas kallah” it is the Shimons making the Reuvens look badFebruary 6, 2023 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #2163083
Before we all weigh in on what Rav Yehuda Jacobs zt”l meant, perhaps we should ask people who were close to him. He may have meant a range of things that most people would agree to.
For example: Don’t make promises (of support) for a shiddach if you can’t realistically afford it.
or: When making a plan for how you will make an income in life, it should include realistic likely life expenses such as children’s weddings. Don’t avoid working for a living with a plan of “we will figure it out”.February 7, 2023 1:27 am at 1:27 am #2163169
Rocky: We live in an age of unprecedented affluence. We are already giving tzedaka to causes that there’s no Halachic obligation to give to. But we need to first give those that the community does have a Halachic obligation to give to. One such obligatory cause is giving people to continue living how they are accustomed to.February 7, 2023 1:28 am at 1:28 am #2163171GadolhadorahParticipant
Everyone is entitled to set their own priorities in allocating whatever funds they have available for charitable giving. For many, addressing the critical needs of those yidden lacking funds for housing, health care and food for their families would take priority over helping other yidden finance a wedding, including airfare to fly over the mishpacha.February 7, 2023 1:29 am at 1:29 am #2163174
Rocky > would be to have a larger tzedka organization weed out the Reuvens from the Shimons with investigations as to who is who
this probably worked when communities were stable and many people knew each other for many years. Now, we do not often know what “large organizations” are doing, and it creates a field for abuse or at least for lack of urgency. You might do better by prioritizing people you know personally or those for whom people you know personally can vouch for.February 7, 2023 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #2163377
AAQ- Although I do not know the inner workings of the big tzedka organizations, it would actually seem easier in today’s day and age to research to true needs of a family. I agree that the ideal would be to give to family that I know personably and can attest to their genuine need. However, I would guess that most donors are not in that position. This would be especially true if you live in a wealthy neighborhood and most of your circle of friends are of the same ilk.
It should not be too difficult in many (not all cases) for an organization to contact a reputable Rav who knows the personally the most destitute and needy cases. Unfortunately it seems to me that there is not a shortage of genuine cases of need for families who got a raw deal on life.
Gadol Hadorah: I agree that we are living in an age of unprecedented wealth. But it seems to me that even so there are plenty of causes that we are obligated to give to that are desperate for $. Not every mosad is flush with cash. Although there may be an inyan to buy a Tesla for a guy who had his repossessed, it would seem that this should be put on the lower list of priorities. True everyone has a right to give to whomever they prefer but it would nice if people with $ would also use seichel in where they give.February 8, 2023 8:25 am at 8:25 am #2163762goldersgreenerParticipant
The easiest way to lower the price of marriage and dowries is to stop bringing US and Israeli concepts to the UK
Let’s stop sushi, adult chiors and meat carving stattions at simchas, let’s stop the shver paying rent for a few years in one of the most expensive cities in the world.February 8, 2023 9:51 am at 9:51 am #2163785
Why should we lower the price of dowries? Dowries have a rich, long and proper place in Jewish life from the earliest historical times in Jewish history until the present time.February 8, 2023 9:51 am at 9:51 am #2163786
Why should we lower the price of dowries? Dowries have a rich, long and proper place in Jewish life from the earliest historical times in Jewish history until the present time.February 8, 2023 9:51 am at 9:51 am #2163806CTLAWYERParticipant
You may live in an island but can’t stop trends from infiltrating your borders.
As for meat carving stations at simchas it was commonplace in Connecticut 60 years ago, if it just arrived in GG, chances are it has something to do with the traditional abundance of beef in the new world and that it was relatively cheap.
My mother served meat twice a day when we were growing up (except Shavous and the nine days). She always claimed it was cheaper and more available than dairy or fish.February 8, 2023 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #2164060
Rocky > I agree that the ideal would be to give to family that I know personably and can attest to their genuine need. However, I would guess that most donors are not in that position…It should not be too difficult in many (not all cases) for an organization to contact a reputable Rav
One way is for you personally to ask someone who you consider a reputable Talmid Chochom and who lives modestly, not involved in official fund collection, to distribute your funds. One Rav I know collects funds in US, calls his personal friend in Yerushalaim, who distributes amount he is told the same day.
Every time you give to organization, whether it is CJP, shul, school, you empower that institution. I would do this only when 100% aligned with the organization.February 8, 2023 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #2164062
> One such obligatory cause is giving people to continue living how they are accustomed to.
Load the animal “with him”… if a person is not doing his part, I do not think there is an obligation. Please check if this is discussed in the footnotes to your favorite halachik source and let us know what the answer is.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.