How to use a blech on shabbos?

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  • #603621
    happym19
    Member

    What are the halachos with using a blech on shabbos but particularly shabbos day? 🙂

    #877519
    pcoz
    Member

    generally speaking (no halachical responsibility accepted) –

    – the blech should cover flame and controls (or controls can be covered seperetaly by alfoil etc)

    – if you take a pot off and put it down on a surface you can not put it back on

    – if the food is fully cooked then if you hold the pot in your hands while someone else takes food out of the pot you can then return it to the blech

    – you can put cooked cold food on top of a pot which is on the blech to warm it up becuase ein bishul achar bishul

    – you can move pots around on the blech so long as the area in which you are moving the pot around is over yad soledes bo (approx 70 celsius)

    #877520
    Sam2
    Participant

    Would you like someone to write a Sefer for you here? They are long and complex. Ask a rov for a general overview. The Artscroll Shabbos (Shabbos kitchen, I think) book has a good list, I’ve been told, though I’ve also been told it’s slightly more Machmir than normative.

    #877521
    haifagirl
    Participant

    – if you take a pot off and put it down on a surface you can not put it back on

    Not the way I learned it.

    To return food to the blech:

    As you remove it you must have in mind that you will return it.

    You must keep at least one hand on the pot.

    You may not it on the floor.

    B’dieved, two out of the three will work.

    #877522
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Use an “unblech” (a water blech).

    #877523

    Artscroll’s “The Shabbos Kitchen” indeed, by Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen of Lakewood. Has pretty much everything you might want to know.

    #877524
    yungerman1
    Participant

    You cannot put anything on the blech Shabbos morning in an area that can heat it to be yard soledes.

    Some allow placing an empty pot upside down on the blech and placing a pot of food on top of it; others require that there be food in the bottom pot.

    Ask your LOR

    #877525
    oomis
    Participant

    I do the following (not paskening, but my rov has told me what I do is good). First, I put only one or two burners on, very low. The I cover each burner, whether on or off, with a perforated approximately 8″ metal disc about 1/2 thick. They are sometimes called simmer rings or heat diffusers, meant to be used as a double boiler effect to put a pot on, to evenly distribute and lower the heat under the pot, so food does not scorch. Then my blech (covered with foil) goes over those discs, raising the height of the blech even further above the burners than it would be otherwise (I know most of my friends simply put the blech directly over the burners, but even for the sake of carbon monoxide issues, I think my way is safer and leaves a more open area for the gases to escape). I put my food either on an area that has no flame, or on top of a turned upside pan on top of the blech.

    I rotate the food, so nothing ever gets too hot to touch. I don’t need potholders to move them around, so it is not yad soledes bo. My mom O”H used to put things into a pan filled with boiled water that remained in one spot on the blech all night (like the k’daira al gabai k’daira “un-blechs” that are sold). I prefer not to keep hot water on a blech.

    #877526
    MorahRach
    Member

    Why do you new to cover the controls? I don’t use a blech so I don’t know.

    #877527
    Naysberg
    Member

    Haifagirl: That’s absolutely incorrect.

    (Btw, you made a linguistic error in your post. You have been duly reported to the internet police.)

    #877528

    haifagirl: I think it goes like this:

    You need three conditions to return food to the fire:

    – flame covered

    – intention to return

    – still holding onto pot.

    The first condition must be fulfilled.

    Only one of the other two is needed, bedieved.

    I think what I learned about putting on the floor is that it is so obviously off the fire, that even if you do have the intention to return, you cannot do so.

    #877529
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Truth be told according to the Rema one could return something to the blech b’dieved without either of the conditions, as long as it is not a liquid item that has cooled off completely. In that case it would be a problem even if both conditions were fulfilled. Ask your LOR. If you’re asking me, I go with the Rema in this case.

    #877530
    Sam2
    Participant

    Yungerman: Why not, if it’s solid? Ein Bishul Achar Bishul.

    #877531
    Rav Tuv
    Participant

    Sam2, I think Yungerman is referring to something that is cold. In order to warm it up on the blech one should invert a pot and place the food on that. From what I recall.

    #877532
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why do you new to cover the controls?

    Our blech is a simulation of the “grufa uk’tumah” of the Mishnah. The reminder not to raise the fire was evident in both the fire itself and in the “controls” (the fire was stoked, so the fire was both the heat source and the control). In our stoves, the control knobs are apart from the fire. If a reminder needs to be evident in the controls as well (as was the case in the times of the Mishnah), the knobs need to be covered. (Based on IG”M O.C. 1: 93)

    Truth be told according to the Rema one could return something to the blech b’dieved without either of the conditions, as long as it is not a liquid item that has cooled off completely.

    He says, though, “tov l’hachmir”, and based on M”B’s explanation, his heter might not apply to modern stoves.

    Why not, if it’s solid? Ein Bishul Achar Bishul.

    Because of “nireh k’mevashel” (see S.A. Horav 253: 14, and IG”M O.C. 1: 93 that a blech does not help for this).

    #877533
    haifagirl
    Participant

    (Btw, you made a linguistic error in your post. You have been duly reported to the internet police.)

    You’re right. I apologize.

    #877534
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Haifagirl: That’s absolutely incorrect.

    No it isn’t.

    You need three conditions to return food to the fire:

    – flame covered

    – intention to return

    – still holding onto pot.

    Not putting it on the floor is absolutely one of the requirements. The flame’s being covered is a precondition. However, if there is no blech on the fire when you remove the pot, you can put the blech on after you remove the pot, before you put it back.

    Ask your LOR.

    #877535
    happym19
    Member

    Thanks so much!

    Just to clarify if i want to put food from the fridge on the blech on shabbos morning i would have to either put it in a place that is cold enough not to reach yad soledes bo or i have to put it ontop of something that has been there from before shabbos like chulent or water in a pan (or some say an empty pot)?

    #877536
    haifagirl
    Participant

    If you are putting it on an empty pot, it doesn’t have to be there from before Shabbos.

    #877537
    Chacham
    Participant

    According to Rav Elyashiv (shvus Yitzchak on sheyiha perek6:2 and Orchos Shabbos 2:in the haaroh 107) and The Chazon Ish 37:8 the entire area of the blech even the part that is NOT yad soledes bo is considered like the cover on the fire. THerefore it will be assur to do a hanacha lchatchila even on the cool side of the blech. It is based on the fact that the same way there is no chiluk for the din toich even on the cold parts , because it has a shem kirah, so too on top when you have a blech spreading the heat we can’t be mechalek two parts of the blech and the cold part is batel to the hot part. See Igros Moshe chelek 1 siman 94 where he is meilkel however in OC4 74 he is more machmir and in YD2 75 Rav moshe seems to say it is all called an oven ??”?

    #877538
    yungerman1
    Participant

    Chacham- The minhag in America seems to be maikel and allow hanacha lcatchila on the not yod soledes part of the blech.

    Sam2- Chazara is not allowed in this case.

    #877539
    fedup11210
    Member

    To Chacham: Reb Shlomo Zalman TZATZAL was also meikil.

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