April 24, 2014 2:22 am at 2:22 am #612627
First he tells over several stories of his encounters with irreligious Jews, and he extols the sensitivity that he saw them express towards others. He goes on at length about how it is thanks to these brothers and sisters of ours that Hashem is oheiv es amo yisroel, loves the Jewish People.
Only a couple of pages later, he deals with the subject of the Neturei Kartanics who went to meet with Ahmadinejad. To quote: “These individuals are not Torah people. We must expose for what they are: self-hating Jews who are doing more harm to Hashem and His people than most Jews, secular or observant, will ever do in their entire lives… With all of our being and all of our hearts, we scream out: “We protest!” We proclaim with loud and clear voices “These individuals, no mater how they are dressed, no matter how long their pei’os are are, are not Torah Jews and do not represent the Jewish people. These people are traitors to Hashem and His Torah.”
I couldn’t help but notice the obvious discrepancy in attitudes displayed here, which I believe is shared by a large percentage of American Jewry. When it comes to Jews who are unfortunately not shomer Torah u’mitzvos we tend to put on our Barditchover hats and focus solely on extolling the good they do, not on condemning what is contrary to the ratzon Hashem. The “pintele yid” stories that have been written praising the chessed, tefilah, etc. of those who lead largely unobservant lives have filled entire books.
But when it comes to our virulently anti-Zionist brothers who keep shabbos, kashrus, tefilah, tzniyus, etc. the common attitude differs drastically. Here the norm is to denounce and deplore their actions, and to demonize them as “self-hating Jews”, even “traitors to Hashem and His Torah”. We focus almost exclusively on the things they do wrong, and announce our opposition to world. We do not tell over stories of the good that they do; we do not seem to care.April 24, 2014 2:36 am at 2:36 am #1012660akupermaParticipant
The hilonim are not “self hating”. They love being secular western persons of Jewish descent. It is the hareidim that they hate. If the “moderate” (“modern”) orthodox can not convince the hilonim to end their current “war” against hareidim, both in America and Israel, then it more or less proves that the “fanatic” hareidim (e.g. Neturei Karta) have been right all along.April 24, 2014 2:43 am at 2:43 am #1012661
I heard from a prominent rav that if one checks in to the yichus of such people (referring to the netrei karta members who met with Ahmadinejad) they will surely find a shemetz of psul.April 24, 2014 2:54 am at 2:54 am #1012662OURtorahParticipant
mw13- so beautifully said! I think we can always prod at ways people are doing things the wrong way. At the end of the day, everyone is quite opinionated and wants whats best for Hashem, and very often what is best for one group isn’t best for the other and therefore they focus on the disagreement and then the world hears about it. This is where it becomes a chilul Hashem. If only we were more judgmental of ourselves and less judgmental of others..the world would be a much better place!April 24, 2014 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1012663
mw13, beautifully said.
jbaldy, I think he reversed it. The seculars we know frequently have psul in yichus. They’ve intermarried so long you can often never be sure that there wasn’t a non-Orthodox conversion among some great or grandmother or a remarriage without a valid get or an intermarriage somewhere along the line, etc.April 24, 2014 3:57 am at 3:57 am #1012664simcha613Participant
The reason is obvious. Chilonim are for the most part tinokos shenishbu. They didn’t have a good experience or any experience with Torah. They are less responsible because it is the situation that they were put into. In fact, it’s probably more our fault then theirs for not succesfully bringing them closer to G-d.
But Neturei Karta should know better. They are frum in most respects and yet still act the way they do. and in the name of the Torah. They are the ultimate chilul Hashem and the fact that they are otherwise “frum” is not a redeeming factor. A person who is learned and is still mechalel Shabbos bemeizid is on a whole different level than one who is not frum at all. There is a higher standard for the frum, and they fall much farther when they don’t meet those standards.April 24, 2014 4:04 am at 4:04 am #1012665
mw13: To answer your question without getting too political, there are two basic differences.
The first is that people meeting with people like Ahmedinejad and supporting the worst of anti-Semites is, without exaggeration, endangering Jewish lives.
The second (and much more important) is that no one would ever view the unaffiliated or completely secular Jew as legitimate. No one thinks that they are doing something acceptable in Judaism. It is precisely because the Niturei Karta are Makpid on things like Shabbos, Kashrus, and more that there is this danger. People feel the need to separate themselves from the close but illegitimate neighbors. If you talk to them about things other than Zionism and supporting Anti-Semites, the Niturei Karta would be indistinguishable from this Chareidi author. Therefore, the Chareidi feels the need to show, in no uncertain terms, that this person’s path in Judaism is entirely illegitimate. (It is very, very similar to the YU/Centrist community’s reaction to Open Orthodoxy, which is also much stronger than their attitudes towards other not-Frum people.)April 24, 2014 5:50 am at 5:50 am #1012666
Sam, how are they endangering any lives by meeting him? They aren’t. They are a bunch of clowns but it is nothing more than getting their faces in the newspapers – which is their goal. They don’t accomplish anything and they don’t hurt anyone. They just make themselves out as foolish people. What they do is dumb but hurts no one.
The people that get all antsy and uptight and start going bonkers every time these guys do their shtick are essentially helping them accomplish their goal. They just want the attention. Ignore them and don’t worry about them. What they do doesn’t cause people to get killed; that is taking them too seriously.April 24, 2014 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #1012667
One can daven 3 times a day wear Teffin keep Shabbos and Kosher and still be a Rasha.April 24, 2014 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #1012668Little FroggieMember
And a VERY LITTLE KNOWN fact. A person can be a “mentch”, good with his neighbors, “gemutlich” and still be a rasha.April 24, 2014 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1012669DaMosheParticipant
I think the biggest issue is that Neturei Karta align themselves with the enemies of the Jews, like Iran. I don’t think anyone looks at other anti-Zionists (like Satmar) the same way they look at NK. For someone to openly show the world that you oppose other Jews and align with their enemies is terrible. That’s why I am so against them.April 24, 2014 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #1012670besalelParticipant
Although I mostly agree with the OP there are some differences between the average chiloni and a NK. First, the NK are responsible for a terrible chillul hashem and there is nothing worse a person can do. But that is not the main difference. The main one is that the NK do things that do not even serve their own purpose but do so only lehachis – to inflame the passions of others religious Jews. Burning a flag (or a Koran) never helped anyone and is done only to instigate. See, e.g., Pastor Terry Jones. Just as we have felt repulsed by Pastor Jones we feel repulsed by NK.
And this is the major difference between Satmar and NK in the eyes of the hamon am. No one feels negatively towards Satmar the same way they do towards NK even though they share almost identical ideologies towards Zionism. But Satmar does not engage in chillul hashem and does not do things solely to instigate. They have a mehalich they truly believe in and they act responsibly towards pushing their mehalich. You can disagree but you cannot feel negatively towards that.
And I think most American Chareidi Jews would feel negatively towards a chiloni who purposefully acts in a way to instigate against Torah. We do not hate the neighbor who doesn’t know any better and drives a car on shabbos but the neighbor who purposefully drives his car into charedi neighborhoods honking his horn down bar ilan street on shabbos only to instigate the frum are viewed negatively.April 24, 2014 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1012671nishtdayngesheftParticipant
I think the question you wanted to ask is why Marc Schneier and his group, Foundation for Ethnic Understanding, is lauded for meeting with Abbas and the NK is vilified by the same people for meeting with Ahmadinejad.
But it really is just a rhetorical question.April 24, 2014 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1012672
Thank you for proving my point. Why do we have this “they’re probably not even Jewish” attitude about NK and not about somebody who doesn’t keep Torah u’Mitzvos?
Why should somebody born in Meah Shearim to NK parents be any less of a tinok shenishba than one born in Tel Aviv to irreligious parents?
As reprehensible as meeting with Ahmadinejad is, it’s hard to say that doing so really endangers Jewish lives. I rather doubt that Ahmadinejad will decide to send more weapons to Hezbollah now that he knows he has the support of NK.
“no one would ever view the unaffiliated or completely secular Jew as legitimate.”
But is that really true? If you were to ask any random guy in Times Square what he thinks constitutes a legitimate Jew, do you think he’d be more likely to name NK or the irreligious?
“It is precisely because the Niturei Karta are Makpid on things like Shabbos, Kashrus, and more that there is this danger. People feel the need to separate themselves from the close but illegitimate neighbors. If you talk to them about things other than Zionism and supporting Anti-Semites, the Niturei Karta would be indistinguishable from this Chareidi author. Therefore, the Chareidi feels the need to show, in no uncertain terms, that this person’s path in Judaism is entirely illegitimate.”
You make a good point, but I don’t think it fully explains the issue at hand. To show the world we don’t consider NK’s view acceptable all we’d need to do is put out a statement to the effect of “They’re flat out wrong, and slightly crazy”. There is no need for personal insults like “self-hating Jew” and “traitor to Hashem and His Torah”. There is no need for questioning their yichus. There is no need for this visceral hatred. So why are so many people so much more into bashing NK than condemning the chillonim?
Just out of curiosity, would you consider somebody who never davnes, wears teffilin, or keeps shabbos a rasha? How about somebody who is oiver on gilluy arayos? Shvichas dumim? Or is it just the NK?April 24, 2014 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1012673
Just out of curiosity, would you consider somebody who never davnes, wears teffilin, or keeps shabbos a rasha? How about somebody who is oiver on gilluy arayos? Shvichas dumim? Or is it just the NK?
There are many Gedolim including Rav Moshe (I think is one of them) who consider those people Tinik ShenobaApril 24, 2014 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1012674
I belive even the Satmar threw out the NK from Williamsburg after the Ahmadinejad meeting. They are certainly not Zionists,but they do know what the Nazis did to the Satmar Rebbe. Meeting with Holocaust Deniers doesnt go over very well with the SatmarsApril 24, 2014 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1012675
There are many Gedolim including Rav Moshe (I think is one of them) who consider those people Tinik Shenoba
Some hold that way about those who were not taught to keep the Torah (I don’t think R’ Moshe was one of them, though). Someone who was taught to keep the Torah, but rejects it, is not generally considered tinok shenishbah by anyone, and I doubt anyone holds that way about shfichas domim.
So, zd, you pretty much avoided the question rather than answering it.April 24, 2014 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1012676RedlegParticipant
There is a vast difference between being anti-Zionist and actively giving aid and comfort to an avowed enemy of, not only the State of Israel, but of all Jews everywhere. Could anyone on this blog imagine the late Satmar Rav, Rav Yoylish, who was known for his strongly anti-Zionist views, visiting and giving support to Ahmedinijad?
Also, it is a grave mistake to believe that Chilonim as a group, hate Chareidim. the recent survey of attitudes in Israel indicates that the overwhelming majority of Chilonim simply don’t care one way or the other about Chareidim. The so called “War against Torah” is a fabrication of militant Chareidi factions who use it to recruit and energize their followers in order to maintain the Government benefits. All of the grievances of the Chareidi community could be dealt with by dialog, discussion and negotiation with the Government and the Hamon Am but, apparently the Chareidi community and leadership isn’t really interested in getting what they want from the rest of the Country. They are more interested in maintaining what amounts to a state of war with the Government and People of Israel as a means of maintaining control of their own flock and gullible fellow travelers.April 24, 2014 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1012677
There is a difference between a murderer and someone who doesnt Daven or Keep Shabbos. Nobody is advocating to treat a murderer with respect, Although Chabad runs an organization called the Alef Institute which helps jews in US Prisons including Death Row, but that is the exception not the rule.April 24, 2014 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1012678crisisoftheweekMember
Actually Satmar engages in some Holocaust Denial…most notably how the Rebbe was saved and by whom and what their affiliation was.April 24, 2014 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1012679
DaMoshe and besalel, it is certainly true that NK goes about broadcasting their opinions in very provocative, in-your-face way. But is that really so bad that it justifies the amount of hate people show them?
As DY noted, you didn’t answer the question: Do you or do you not consider somebody who doesn’t daven, keep Shabbos, kashrus, etc. a rasha?
Also, as I pointed out above I think the label of tinok sehnishba is just as applicable to a born and bred NK as it is to the irreligious. So if you don’t think a tinok shenishba is a rasha, most of NK shouldn’t be rashim either.
Where do you draw the line?
“There is a vast difference between being anti-Zionist and actively giving aid and comfort to an avowed enemy of, not only the State of Israel, but of all Jews everywhere.”
Not to condone the aforementioned actions of NK in any way, but I really don’t see how just meeting with Ahmadinejad would be aiding him. It’s not like NK’s support will unlock any doors for Iran.
“Could anyone on this blog imagine the late Satmar Rav, Rav Yoylish, who was known for his strongly anti-Zionist views, visiting and giving support to Ahmedinijad?”
Absolutely not. But this isn’t about whether NK is a right or wrong; it’s about the discrepancy in the attitudes displayed at things NK does that we strongly disagree with and the things that the chillonim do that we strongly disagree with. Why do we react so differently?
“it is a grave mistake to believe that Chilonim as a group, hate Chareidim”
True, but what does that (and the following accusations you level at the “militant Chareidi factions”) have to do with anything?
crisisoftheweek, way to stick your talking points into a conversation they have nothing to do with.April 24, 2014 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1012680
mw13: Giving legitimacy to haters of Jews by letting them say, “see, even your own members think you’re evil” helps bolster anti-Semites’ claims and attitudes, which leads to more people having the confidence and willingness to do things like Kansas City.
Also, it gives more ammo to people who hate the State of Israel, which can lead to more public opinion against Israel which makes it easier for the UN to pass resolutions against Israel. Which, whether you think the State is a good thing or a horrible evil, does endanger Jewish lives.April 24, 2014 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1012681
Sam, you’re making way too big of a stretch. Are you saying that the secular left-wing Jews (who the world considers more “mainstream Jews” than Orthodox Jews) that support a boycott against Israel or support Palestinian rights are the cause of Kansas City?
And if the UN does pass another resolution against Israel (even assuming your stretch as to what causes such resolutions) then Jews die due to the UN resolution?April 25, 2014 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1012682
renters (Joseph): I’m not saying these are direct causes. Or that no bad things would happen to Jews without them. But yes, a world with an atmosphere more sympathetic to anti-Semites and terrorists is one that is more dangerous for a Jew to live in. (And yes, the average American thinks Kansas City was an awful thing; but if fewer people thought it was proper then there would be fewer attacks like that.)April 25, 2014 5:47 am at 5:47 am #1012683
renters and mw13
I am probably going to regret this but are you of the opinion that we shouldnt prevent holocaust denial because you think that wont directly cause the loss of jewish life either or is that too much of a stretch also?April 25, 2014 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1012684besalelParticipant
Mw13: the stuff nk does is not just in your face it is downright obscene. They are our version of the Westboro church. That being said I originally said I mostly agreed with you because I agree that the level of hatred shown to what really are a bunch of clowns is disproportionate.April 25, 2014 11:41 am at 11:41 am #1012685
besalel: I agree with your last line. That’s what I’ve been saying.
jbaldy: I’d be more worried about those that deny Har Sinai.
Sam: Your underlying point is valid but you’re making a stretch applying it here. Their meeting him doesn’t cause sympathy to jew-hatred. Would you have opposed Rabi Yochonon Ben Zakkai from meeting Vespasian?April 25, 2014 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1012686
renters: No. Everything is in context. If they met with him to plead for mercy on behalf of Iranian Jews it wouldn’t upset people. It’s them going to him to tell the world, “See, we hate Israel just like this Holocaust-denying anti-Semite” that gives people major pause.April 25, 2014 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #1012687
seems like Sam2 is right will bow to his obvious expertise in all Joseph related matters and slowly back away from this thread.April 25, 2014 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1012688
If a Chiloni would drive to the house of Rav Shteinman on the First day of Pesach and ate a ham and Cheese sandwich THEN they would be a Rasha and comparable to NK’s , otherwise they are Tinok ShenesbaApril 25, 2014 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1012689
ZD, how to define a tinok shenishbah is a halachic issue. Did you go through the sugya or ask a shailah, or did you make that up?April 25, 2014 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1012690
You asked if I thought they were Rashaim and I answered you that unless they deliberatly broke the law and were in your face about it (as opposed to ignorance) I said no.
I can tell you the following, If someone grew up non-religious and went to public and at some point in their life came into contact with religious people and the religious person wished to maybe Mekarev them. Calling them a Rasha is not the way to do it.April 25, 2014 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1012691
There’s a lot in between ignorant and in your face.April 25, 2014 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1012692
NK is in your face according to many.
There is a differnce be non-zionist and anti-zionist and there is a difference between non-religous and anti-religiousApril 25, 2014 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1012693
There is a fundamental difference.
For a person who has been brought up not to keep Shabbos, he needs to be educated in order to be able to change. It is not natural for such a person to keep such a new, foreign (in his eyes) concept.April 25, 2014 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1012694
“Giving legitimacy to haters of Jews by letting them say, “see, even your own members think you’re evil” helps bolster anti-Semites’ claims and attitudes, which leads to more people having the confidence and willingness to do things like Kansas City.”
It is nothing short of ridiculous to blame the actions of a 73 year old white supremacist in Kansas on NK meeting with Ahmadinejad. I’m sorry, but that just makes no sense.
“Also, it gives more ammo to people who hate the State of Israel, which can lead to more public opinion against Israel which makes it easier for the UN to pass resolutions against Israel. Which, whether you think the State is a good thing or a horrible evil, does endanger Jewish lives.”
1) The difference in public opinion that NK makes is negligible, if it exists at all. The public at large (accurately) sees them as quacks on the fringe, not as some sort of intellectuals whose opinion should be taken seriously.
2) As anti-Israel as the UN is, there’s B”H not much that it can do that endangers Jewish lives. Biased resolutions are rarely fatal.
Holocaust denial is a result of anti-semitism, not a cause of it. Nobody’s ever decided to hate Jews because they don’t think the Holocaust happened; it’s usually the other way around.
“You asked if I thought they were Rashaim and I answered you that unless they deliberatly broke the law and were in your face about it (as opposed to ignorance) I said no.”
As DY pointed out, whether somebody is “in your face” about it or not has nothing to do with being a tinok shenishba. The rough definition of a tinok shenishba is somebody who, due to their upbringing, doesn’t know any better.
“I can tell you the following, If someone grew up non-religious and went to public and at some point in their life came into contact with religious people and the religious person wished to maybe Mekarev them. Calling them a Rasha is not the way to do it.”
1) You’re the only one who used the label rasha; everybody else just questioned where you draw the line.
2) If someone grew up NK and went to public and at some point in their life came into contact with anti-NK people and the anti-NK person wished to maybe Mekarev them. Calling them a Rasha is not the way to do it.April 25, 2014 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1012695
i hate to defend ZD but,
whether or not they are a halachik tinok shenishba isnt relevant over here. The point is peoples perception of tinok shenishba is the reason for not harboring feelings against them, regardless of the true din.
btw even if they arent considered a halachik tinok shenishba by the hamon am (regardless of true din), there is definitely not as much of a tviah. How can you compare someone brought up in a significantly easier lifestyle which a vast majority keeps to, with a NK person thats only excuse for his actions is his rebbe said so??!!
Point is the whole jewish world is saying theyre nuts and reshaaim, they know this, and yet still keep to their narrow minded stupid waysApril 25, 2014 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1012696Avram in MDParticipant
I think it is possible that you are seeing a contradiction where none exists due to a faulty premise that every person or every situation deserves the same response. As we learned at the seder, four different sons, four different responses.
he extols the sensitivity that he saw them express towards others. He goes on at length about how it is thanks to these brothers and sisters of ours that Hashem is oheiv es amo yisroel, loves the Jewish People.
Are you sure that the author’s intent was to heap praise on the irreligious, or rather to praise b’nei Yisroel that even the ones distant from Torah and mitzvos display upstanding middos?
he deals with the subject of the Neturei Kartanics who went to meet with Ahmadinejad.
Here the norm is to denounce and deplore their actions, and to demonize them as “self-hating Jews”, even “traitors to Hashem and His Torah”.
Ahmadinejad materially supports those who kill Jews. He mocks and insults Jews, including our martyrs, in front of the world. NK seemingly did not go there to seek mercy for their bretheren. They embraced him, and expressed support for his “cause” against the state of Israel. They are not simply anti-Zionist, you can be anti-Zionist without supporting the enemies of the Jewish people. NK on the other hand displays the flag of the PLO, an organization with the blood of Jews on its hands. How can we not have a strong reaction to that?
Hypothetically, should our ancestors in Egypt have reacted the same to a Jew who r”l assimilated into Egyptian culture verses a Jew who outwardly maintained the trappings of Judaism, but who declared that the Jews deserved their slavery and patted the Egyptian soldiers on their backs as they drowned Jewish babies in the hopes of currying favor with the Egyptian government?
We do not tell over stories of the good that they do; we do not seem to care.
Do you have any knowledge of good that they do?
You must live on a different planet from me. Seculars open a parking lot on Shabbos in Yerushalayim? Denounced, protested. Conservative movement permits driving on Shabbos? Denounced, protested.
Why do we tend to focus on the 10% of the weekly routine of an otherwise irreligious Jew that is in accordance with the Halacha, and focus on the 10% of the time a NKnic spends doing things that we disagree with?
I disagree with your assertion that we ignore the 90% with regard to an irreligious Jew. I have heard no “pintele yid” stories that do this – they usually end with the irreligious Jew becoming frum. Also, do you really want to go down the path of criticizing a focus on 10% bad when 90% is ok? If someone commits adultry only 10% of the time, should we really praise him for his commitment to put on tefillin every day?April 27, 2014 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1012697
Secondly, although I am no expert in NK theology, I do not believe that the NK is intentionally trying to harm anybody. They seem to believe that it is important to for the world to know that in their opinion, the very existence of the State of Israel is against the Torah, and they will go to obscene extremes to accomplish that.
“i hate to defend ZD but”
Why? Feel free to defend the truth as you see it, regardless of whose mouth it comes out of.
“can you compare someone brought up in a significantly easier lifestyle which a vast majority keeps to, with a NK person thats only excuse for his actions is his rebbe said so??!!”
Absolutely. People tend to live their life as they’re brought up to believe is right. That’s what makes being a tinok shenishba a good excuse for almost anything. (Would you say that somebody brought up in strict Monastery would not be considered a tinok shenishba because the way they’ve been taught to lead their lives isn’t any “easier” than a Torah lifestyle?) I’m not sure what else should contribute to the perception of being a tinok shenishba.
Avram in MD:
“Are you sure that the author’s intent was to heap praise on the irreligious, or rather to praise b’nei Yisroel that even the ones distant from Torah and mitzvos display upstanding middos?”
It was certainly the latter. But that was precisely my point; why do we focus on praising the few actions of the irreligious that we support, and on deploring the few actions of the NK that condemn?
“Hypothetically, should our ancestors in Egypt have reacted the same to a Jew who r”l assimilated into Egyptian culture verses a Jew who outwardly maintained the trappings of Judaism, but who declared that the Jews deserved their slavery and patted the Egyptian soldiers on their backs as they drowned Jewish babies in the hopes of currying favor with the Egyptian government?”
Although I am no expert in NK theology, I’m pretty sure they do not believe that Jews should be killed or deserve to be killed. All they declare is that in their opinion, the very existence of the State of Israel is against the Torah, and the source of all ills (although it’s certainly true that they do this in terrible, reprehensible ways). There’s quite a difference between the two.
“Do you have any knowledge of good that they do?”
NK members by and large lead an observant lifestyle. That means they keep Shabbos, kosher, wear tefillin, daven three times a day, observe the prohibitions relating to tzniyus and arayos, learn Torah, honor their parents, etc, etc, etc. This is all good.
“You must live on a different planet from me. Seculars open a parking lot on Shabbos in Yerushalayim? Denounced, protested. Conservative movement permits driving on Shabbos? Denounced, protested.”
When I said there was a discrepancy in the way we relate to the NK versus the way we relate to the irreligious, I didn’t mean in our official positions and statements (although even then, when’s the last time you heard somebody call the irreligious “self-hating Jews”, etc?). I was referring to the general attitudes that we display towards these two groups, how different the tone of our conversations about them tends to be, and which actions we tend to focus on in our day-to-day talk and in popular literature.
“Also, do you really want to go down the path of criticizing a focus on 10% bad when 90% is ok?”
I did not advocate focusing on the minority of bad or good deeds that a group engages in; I just pointed out that to focus on the minority of good deeds of one group and the minority of bad deeds of another is rather hypocritical.April 27, 2014 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1012698
i think someone brought up non religious has more nigius subconscious reasons for not becoming frum (agreeing that the frum way is correct) than an NK weirdo who knows the other tzad, knows hes a yuchid that the whole jewish world is screaming at, and nonetheless thinks hes right to take such extreme measuresApril 27, 2014 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1012699nishtdayngesheftParticipant
I had the displeasure of being in Manhattan today and I passed by where some group was have a rally, It was outside the Governor’s office in NYC. It is possible that since it right near the UN, that the Iranian embassy or consulate was somewhere in the vicinity as well.
The protest was supposed to a Holocaust remembrance event against Iran?!?
Anyhow, there were about 40 people there (and that is being generous), I think all thought they were going to speak.
You had the usual group of lunatics, such as Avi Weiss and Shmuely Boteach and some feminists yelling nonsense at the top of their lungs and then sticking around to sign autographs.
The NK group across the street had a better showing and were better behaved and making less of a chilul hashem.
Either way, I felt like going over and spitting on both of them, if it were not beneath me to do so in public and that they were still Jews and I, for one, would not spit on other Jews in public. (Not like Ari Hart, apparently. Let him write that up in Al-Jazeera)April 28, 2014 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #1012700Avram in MDParticipant
why do we focus on praising the few actions of the irreligious that we support, and on deploring the few actions of the NK that condemn
The intent behind an action plays a big role in how others respond to it. If someone with their back turned towards me was gesticulating wildly in conversation and accidentally struck my face with his hand, I would be upset by his carelessness, but would probably not have my feelings hurt much. If the same person looked hatefully at me and intentionally struck me on the face, however, even though the physical impact of the act was the same as the first case, I would feel much more hurt and anger.
Most people do not presume that the typical irreligious Jew is intentionally committing aveiras in order to harm the Jewish people. When NKs are seen spitting on other Jews, however, or flying the PLO flag, visiting Ahmadinejad or paying homage to Yasir Arafat, most people do think they are exhibiting active malice towards their brethren.
I’m pretty sure they do not believe that Jews should be killed or deserve to be killed.
If someone in Wyoming displays a swastika, I think it’s reasonable to believe that he agrees with the atrocities committed by the Nazis. Likewise, if someone embraces “erased in a single storm” and “go back to Germany” Ahmadinejad and attends Iran’s conference on Holocaust denial, what are we to make of that?
although even then, when’s the last time you heard somebody call the irreligious “self-hating Jews”, etc?
It’s actually very common to hear an irreligious Jew who, for example, changes his name to make it sound less Jewish, or openly supports the Arab positions, or otherwise acts embarrassed to be associated with Jews called a “self-hating” Jew. I heard that term used long before I became frum myself or heard of the NK.
I just pointed out that to focus on the minority of good deeds of one group and the minority of bad deeds of another is rather hypocritical.
Failure to understand another’s position does not make it hypocrisy.April 28, 2014 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1012701
Again, I don’t believe that whether a lifestyle is easy or popular is a factor here. A tinok shenishba is one who was brought up in a certain way, and doesn’t know any better. This can be applied to NK just as much as to the irreligious.
Avram in MD:
You seem to be under the impression that NK is anti-Zionist just out of malice, denies the Holocaust, and wishes for (all?) other Jews to be killed. So I see why you hate them. However, none of that is true. NK is anti-Zionist because they believe that the ideology of Zionism is inherently evil, not because they want to hurt people. And while they did visit Ahmadinejad, they did not do so to deny the Holocaust or to support the murder of Jews; only to highlight their vehement opposition to the secular State of Israel. Not that I condone meeting with this monstrous murderer in any way; far from it. But let’s not blow this up into more than it is; a disgusting, obscene way of showing their opinion of the State of Israel, not announcing that they wish for another Holocaust.April 28, 2014 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1012702
ok so lets stop calling it “tinok shenishba”. what i said is a valid chiluk betwixt the two.
A tinok shenishba is one who was brought up in a certain way, and doesn’t know any better.
Although they were brought up that way they do know better and shud do otherwise. Thats why theyre retarded. Unlike someone unfrum where it is more understandable why hes not frumApril 28, 2014 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1012703
Of course for a person who has been brought up frum, Bain odom lamokoim is not an extra but for others it is
Secondly, to tell the world your Torah opinion via “obscene extremes” is a mitzvah habo`oh mai avairoh!April 28, 2014 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1012704frumnotyeshivishParticipant
The reason why I relate to (even non-tinok shenishba) chilonim more than NK, is because I have been tempted to become a chiloni, and I have never been tempted to become an NK. Thus, to me, the chiloni seems far more rational and relatable.April 28, 2014 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1012705
A better word than extra would be foreign
Being decent and acting as a mensh everyone even non jews know about it and agree to the conceptApril 28, 2014 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1012706
I think we’ve gone back and forth on this as many times as is constructive. You think the NK should know better more than the irreligious should; I do not. Perhaps it’s time to agree to disagree.
“Of course for a person who has been brought up frum, Bain odom lamokoim is not an extra but for others it is”
Does the fact that somebody has been brought up to believe that bein adam la’Makom is mean that we should treat it as such? And a similar argument could be made that some parts of NK have been brought up to believe that bein adam li’chavaro is “extra”. But should we, who B”H are aware of the importance of both, treat one is who is ignoring one any different than we should one who is ignoring the other?
Why should a wrong that is more “relatable” be considered any less wrong? More surprising, perhaps, but why more deserving of condemnation?
Let’s say purely for arguments sake that I am tempted to become NK, and not at all tempted to abandon a religious lifestyle. Would that give me the right to be any more judgmental of the irreligious than of the NK?April 28, 2014 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1012707
I never said that Bain Odom Lamokoim (BOLM) is mean. I said it is foreign, strange.
I believe that every frum person feels at home with BOLM only because he has been brought up that way. No one on their own would invent Shabbos, Niddah etc
Ben Odom La`chavaro (BAL): the whole world believes that a person must be decent .No one believes that that is an extra or foreign.
This is a fundemental difference.April 28, 2014 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #1012708frumnotyeshivishParticipant
mw13: Your “right to be  judgmental” is based on your subjective sense of right and wrong. So yes, I guess. But to me, my right to be judgmental will lump you into the same hogwash that is NK.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.