How will we separate the real kohanim from the fake kohanim when moshiach comes?

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  • #617572
    tantali
    Member

    I read the Rambam says that during zman moshiach the false kohanim and leviem today will be separated and put in their proper tribe.

    “He will purify the lineage of the Levites first, stating ‘He is a priest of defined lineage. He is a Levite of defined lineage.’ Those whose lineage he will not recognize will be israelites”

    How will he know this though? Is this saying moshiach will be a full fledged navi?

    #1147824
    The Queen
    Participant

    With the advancement of DNA science, you may possibly be able to find that out now.

    #1147825
    mdd
    Member

    Tantali, it is openly stated in the Rambam that he will be. But the purification job will be done by Elliyahu ha’Navi.

    #1147826
    Geordie613
    Participant

    *separate

    #1147827
    mdd
    Member

    The Quenn, the DNA can’t tell if a person’s greatgrandmother was a chalalah or a grushah who was married to a Cohen.

    #1147828
    The Queen
    Participant

    mdd, I heard that there is DNA testing to know if someone is ben achar ben from Aharon HaCohen. I wasn’t taking the mothers into consideration. You are right.

    #1147829
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    The Cohanim will be the ones with sacks of Silver Dollars hidden in the closet

    #1147830
    Joseph
    Participant

    Won’t the Avoda be performed by the b’chorim in the Third Beis HaMikdash?

    #1147831
    tantali
    Member

    “I heard that there is DNA testing to know if someone is ben achar ben from Aharon HaCohen.”

    Oy but even without taking the chalal cases, I read there is a large percentage of simple genetic difference among current kohanim to begin with. Even before taking the chalal aspect of it into consideration.

    #1147832
    tantali
    Member

    —Won’t the Avoda be performed by the b’chorim in the Third Beis HaMikdash—

    Thats interesting whats the source for this?

    #1147833
    writersoul
    Member

    You can’t tell from DNA testing if someone is ben achar ben from Aharon HaKohen. What they did was examine kohanim and found that a statistically significant percentage came from the same x chromosome line which went back to the days of Aharon HaKohen. People therefore assume that this means they are ben achar ben from Aharon. The only way this would make sense is if a genetic mutation literally happened right at Aharon’s or one of his children’s generation, because he was only a few generation from Yaakov Avinu- so that by general genetic principles his descendants would have the same Y chromosome as all of Yaakov’s descendants- and in between is Levi and his descendants, who do NOT share a Y chromosome in common. The odds of a significant mutation happening davka then and lasting for thousands of years are not impossible but quite small. It could be, though.

    That said, DNA evidence isn’t admissible in halacha.

    #1147834
    Joseph
    Participant

    ???? ??? ??? was supposed to do the Avoda initially. ??? ??? was taken “??? ?? ???? ??? ???”. But it says it will revert back to the b’chorim after Moshiach.

    #1147835
    zogt_besser
    Participant

    that’s what the or hachaim says, but it’s a big peleh why he says that and what his source is.

    #1147836
    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: The Bechorim only ever did Avodas Halevi’im. The Kehunah was always going to be separate. And even if it wasn’t, it will stay with the Bnei Aharon. Saying otherwise would violate numerous Pesukim (and possibly one of the Rambam’s Ikkarim).

    #1147837
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Sam has a point

    Anyway, I wanted to add that the Zohar says that Yimos moshiach korach will be the kohein gadol

    #1147838
    Joseph
    Participant

    What will the b’chorim do that they had previously lost?

    #1147839
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In addition, one of the proofs brought to Techias HaMeisim in Maseches Sanhedrin hinges on the fact that Aharon will personally collect and eat Terumah in the future (something he never did in his lifetime). If the Kehunah will be given to the first born (which Aharon was not) then the Gemara’s proof falls apart.

    The Wolf

    #1147840
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What will the b’chorim do that they had previously lost?

    Why do you think that they have to do anything?

    The Wolf

    #1147841
    nfgo3
    Member

    Centrifuge.

    #1147842
    Joseph
    Participant

    Tzshteit azoi in der seforim hakedoshim.

    #1147843
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Tzshteit azoi in der seforim hakedoshim.

    Can you be more specific than that?

    The Wolf

    #1147844
    crispandrefreshing
    Participant

    tantali- mareh makom please

    #1147845
    tantali
    Member

    Wow, it will be returned to the bechorim. Sam, I found in a another post in the coffee room saying you are wrong. That the maharsha says it will be returned to the bechorim as Joseph said. Ill paste it below

    “It will be returned to the bechorim: Mashma from the maharsha when moshiach comes kehuna will be returned to klal yisroel

    …??? ?????? ???????

    ?????? ?????? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?’ ???’ ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???”? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?’ ?????? ???? ????? ???:

    ????”? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?

    Link: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/leviim-will-become-kohanim-when-moshiach-comes#post-572722 -100

    #1147846
    tantali
    Member

    Then daas yochid said,

    –I don’t know anything about this Arizal, but the concept isn’t necessarily a stirah to the Rambam.–

    #1147847
    tantali
    Member

    Perhaps there will be two different times during moshiach.

    One time where the false kohanim and leviem will be weeded out and the true ones will do the avoda. And then another time when the bechorim will do it.

    #1147848
    Joseph
    Participant

    Will the false Kohanim and Leviim be embarassed when Eliyahu HaNavi tells them they’re not Kohanim/Leviim? All their life they went to shul and got an aliya by Kohen and Levi, and they duchened every Yom Tov. And now along comes a malach and suddenly makes them ois Kohen and all their friends and neighbors see they can no longer do the kehuna.

    #1147849
    tantali
    Member

    Joseph, I know several people actually who used to be yisroels and get the third alliya in shule. And then all of a sudden they started getting the second alliya (they became leviem) and in one case the first alliya (the person became a kohen) because they heard so and so about their dad or grandpa and they might be a levi or kohen now.

    So I guess if they make it to zman moshiach and the rumor wasn’t true it would be rather embarrassing.

    #1147850
    tantali
    Member

    But you could also say the opposite cant you?

    Where someone always got the third alliya and never duchened and when moshiach comes they will get the first alliya lol

    #1147851
    apushatayid
    Participant

    why would anyone be embarrassed if they got their aliya according to accepted accepted halachic principles. Lo bashamayim hi.

    #1147852
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    thank you apy, that’s what i wanted to ask as well.

    #1147853
    Joseph
    Participant

    Not embarrassed that they got an aliya; the point of mentioning the aliyas was that everyone knows who represents themselves as a Kohen. The question is will they be embarrassed that they publicly represented themselves as a Kohen all their lives and now Eliyahu HaNavi exposed that they are not Kohanim.

    #1147854
    tantali
    Member

    Even if someone acted within the normative Jewish practice of our generation I could see how it would still be embarrassing.

    But the main question I was asking is how will it happen, will they get a letter or will each one just know within themselves or be told orally? Will they get a shtar of some sort saying you are a real kohen….you belong in the tribe of yehuda etc..

    #1147855
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    right, and why is that something to be embarassed about? You did just what you were supposed to do and you should be proud. Will you be embarassed when mashiach comes that you live in NY? 🙂

    #1147856
    crispandrefreshing
    Participant

    tantali- can u provide a mareh mamom please

    #1147857
    tantali
    Member

    Rambam Mishneh Torah Melachim uMilchamot – Chapter 12 Halacha 3

    #1147858
    Sam2
    Participant

    tantali: You misread the Maharsha. Unless you also think that he is saying that the Melachim won’t be from Beis Dovid.

    #1147859
    tantali
    Member

    No Sam, I think it is you who misunderstands.

    In the Maharsha’s view the reference is to the Messianic Era when the kehuna and malchus will be restored to Israel.

    The two crowns that was taken away from klal yisroel when they sinned by the chet haegel will be returned when moshiach comes. This is alluded to when it says “you will be a KINGDOM of PRIESTS- Malchus and Kehuna. When klal yisroel sinned they lost these offices, of kehuna and royalty. But it will later be returned.

    Like I suggested, perhaps there will be two different times of the moshiach.

    #1147860
    tantali
    Member

    The very fact that the Rambam says the false kohanim and leviem will be removed when moshiach comes obviously means its not so simple that it will be returned. But this is what I read according to the maharsha from the other thread, thats why I said perhaps there will be two periods.

    #1147861
    apushatayid
    Participant

    No matter what word you use, exposed, revealed, publicized why should anyone be embarrassed for following the halacha?

    #1147862
    Joseph
    Participant

    apy: If you ate a shtick chazir that had a chazaka of being kosher meat, but it later turned out (after you digested the pork) that it was chazir, you followed halacha when you ate it as you had the right to do so based on its halachicly correct assumption of it being kosher meat. But would you feel bad ex post facto that you in fact ate chazir? Would you ask Hashem for mechila?

    #1147863
    tantali
    Member

    apushatayid,

    I have already addressed that point as did Joseph. I said I could see how someone could be embarrassed by this.

    Thats my opinion, why do you keep on bringing this aspect of it up. I dont think its very important. Lets move on. If it happened to a certain kohen today I could see how he would be embarrassed. But when moshiach comes who knows what people will feel like.

    #1147864
    tantali
    Member

    Or if you inherited a family fortune going back to your great grandfather that provided you with the finest of luxuries your entire life, and you passed down this fortune to your children so they can also live in luxury.

    Then it turns out the family fortune came from ill-gotten funds and has to be returned. Now you and your children have to return the fortune and live like common-folk.

    Ok its a little exaggerated but thats how I see it could be embarrassing if you want to know.

    #1147865
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I have already addressed that point as did Joseph.”

    Correct, as did I. I still maintain that nobody needs to be embarrassed for following the accepted halacha. There is no reason to rehash the question in 10 different ways (not that you did).

    #1147866
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “But would you feel bad ex post facto that you in fact ate chazir? Would you ask Hashem for mechila?”

    I would feel bad, but not embarrassed. I’m not sure if there is a mechila to ask in this situation. If the klal did an aveira based on the psak of the sanhedrin what was proper procedure, who brought a chattas? What did everyone else do? If your hypothetical situation ever became a reality, I would ask my Rav what to do.

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