April 9, 2013 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #608916kingdavidParticipant
I think we need to be more educated on this subject to be able to stand up to these offenders…April 9, 2013 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1027926
What is there to be educated about?
Response: According to some of our opinions, it is a commandment which we must do. People made fun of us for thousands of years for doing bris, and we did it. We’ll outlast this frei jew also.April 9, 2013 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1027927lakewhutParticipant
not all mohelim do metzitzahApril 9, 2013 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1027928
wut?April 9, 2013 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1027929
kingdavid -The only ones that have to be educated is the community, the Mohalim & the Rabbonim.
I’m not against MBP, but the Mohel either has to be HSV-neg or not work in the field of MBP or take Antivirals to prevent transmitting HSV. Whether he’d have to take the drugs all the time would depend on the freq that he is called to do Brissim.April 9, 2013 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #1027930lakewhutParticipant
one doesn’t have to do it with his mouthApril 9, 2013 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1027931
Health: Thank you for the medical advice. I hope you will defer to the relevant poskim of the relevant communities as regards the psak.
I’m serious: You talk of educating “communities”. If you think your information is relevant, why not just address it to their poskim. Haga atzmecha: If your posek, after hearing your info, told you to do it–wouldn’t you do it? So why does the community need the info? Why would they listen to you at all?April 9, 2013 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1027932big dealParticipant
It is stupid to think that you can call into a radio show with an apposing opinion and expect to be given a fair chance of explaining yourself.
He kept on saying hes having a conversation but in reality it was a rudely dominated session. every time one of his callers had somthing logical to say he cut into them or asked them an off topic questn.April 9, 2013 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1027933
one doesn’t have to do it with his mouth
In your opinion, and in the opinion of most poskim.
I hope you’ll accord your coreligionists the respect that if their poskim do require it by mouth–that you will not criticize their following them.April 9, 2013 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1027934akupermaParticipant
Did he acknowledge the counter argument, which is that the surgical methods used to clean the wound are also dangerous, and that unless the mollel is ill, the “folk remedy” may be equally good or superior to what is done in the hospitals. While much traditional medicine is “bunk”, cleaning a would by licking it is actually rational in many cases, no matter how unhygenic it sounds. I seriously doubt anyone has done a scientific study comparing techniques.
From the tone in the media, I suspect he’s more of a bigot than anything else. Indeed, being bigotted, in general, is the “stock in trade” on talk radio. That is why intelligent people tend to avoid it.April 9, 2013 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #1027935acersParticipant
in the opinion of most poskim.
How did you determine which way most hold?April 9, 2013 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1027937
PBA: If it can be proven (and I’m not saying it has, but if it can) that requiring by mouth is a Sakanas Nefashos for these babies, then wouldn’t you agree that we don’t have to accord any respect to those who do it? That we should stop them from putting their children in danger?April 9, 2013 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1027938
PBA -“Health: Thank you for the medical advice. I hope you will defer to the relevant poskim of the relevant communities as regards the psak.
I’m serious: You talk of educating “communities”. If you think your information is relevant, why not just address it to their poskim. Haga atzmecha: If your posek, after hearing your info, told you to do it–wouldn’t you do it? So why does the community need the info? Why would they listen to you at all?”
They shouldn’t listen to me as opposed to their Rabbonim or even if they should they probably wouldn’t. And I would listen to my Rov over my opinion right now, but if I thought this was a very high risk of the baby catching the disease I wouldn’t listen, but then again I highly doubt my Rov would argue with me when it comes to anything medical.
So the difference is when it comes to me taking a risk alone (I’yH I’ll get remarried and have more boys and girls), as opposed to what should be public Jewish policy. No, my Rov is Not one of those. But the ones that do make public policies -you know the Kol Koray types, why don’t they ask medical advice about MBP? They actually had some Rabbonim that came out with some Kol Koray about this, but as far as I know they only got input from the Mohalim and possibly one Doc, which noone that I know of agrees with in the medical community.April 9, 2013 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1027939
Sam: You need to quantify what you mean by sakanas nefashos.
If everyone was dying, then yes it would be clear sakanas nefashos and we know that bris is not yehareig v’al yaavor.
But the percentage dying are a very small percentage. Do you really think it is higher than the percentage of babies who used to die from bris before they had antiobiotics to treat any infections that came up? And before they knew to sterilize equipment? (Not that I am modeh if it is a higher percentage–I’d still like to know what percentage you require.)April 9, 2013 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1027940
Sam2 -“PBA: If it can be proven (and I’m not saying it has, but if it can) that requiring by mouth is a Sakanas Nefashos for these babies, then wouldn’t you agree that we don’t have to accord any respect to those who do it? That we should stop them from putting their children in danger?”
What would have to be proven that it’s a Sofek, but right now I think the criteria of the proof would be at Sfak Sfaka. I don’t think it’s Ossur to do MBP, but why not work out a solution where No babies or almost No babies will get sick? And I posted the solution above.April 9, 2013 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #1027941
PBA: Safek Sakanah is a Kol Shehu. Even Echad Mini Elef.
And that’s your response? Not enough babies die? That’s ridiculous. It’s retarded. Should I say that I’m Pattur for going into a maternity ward and start attacking one out of every thousand babies with a hatchet because without medical care more than that would have died anyway? That’s stupid. It’s beyond stupid. It’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever said. If we can prove that this is life-threatening, then it’s life-threatening. Period. End of discussion.
Rant aside, I’m not saying ban MBP. But if Mohalim don’t know not to do it when they have a cold sore and we can’t get them all not to, then banning MBP might be the only choice.April 9, 2013 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1027942
Heres what I would’ve told him. Describing it in vile language is unnecessarily offensive (I know that that is part of his appeal, and that sadly more often than not many of our bretheren fall for him when he is on “our” side.)
Any “ick” factor is complelty irrelevant when discussing banning or limiting people from practicing their religion. Many religous rituals from all religions can be made to sound “weird” that should have no bearing with regard to any discussion n the matter. I’m sure nay thinking person would agree with the above. (Though I was never sure if savage could be characterized as a thinking person)
That being said there is only one issue that should matter to the authorities (and us) in regard to banning/limiting any religous procedure, and that is health and safety of those involved. If Rov of the medical profession views it as dangerous it should be banned. period. Same as we would tell somebody not to fast on Y”K if Rov (or even one) Doctor even a goy said it was dangerous.
Any attempt to portray any ritual as “Primitive” “icky” or “weird” is completly out of place and detracts from the real issueApril 10, 2013 12:48 am at 12:48 am #1027943
Any attempt to portray any ritual as “Primitive” “icky” or “weird” is completly out of place and detracts from the real issue
Well really, it just belies that there are other reasons–bigoted ones–for his opinion.April 10, 2013 1:06 am at 1:06 am #1027944
PBA, granted, and it is striking that he (and many others) are too dumb to realize that.
Though to be fair I doubt in the DOH reports they make any mention of any “primitive” quality associated with MBP. They correctly focus on the one issue that matters namely the health issue.April 10, 2013 1:18 am at 1:18 am #1027945Torah613TorahParticipant
Ignore him.April 10, 2013 1:44 am at 1:44 am #1027946MorahRachMember
Funny. On my way home from the gym I was listening to him as always, and I thought ” I wonder of anyone is going to post about this on ywn”. Guess so!
Health you are right on the money IMO.April 10, 2013 1:59 am at 1:59 am #1027947MammeleParticipant
He’s really anti-religious and beyond reason. I remember once hearing him scream at a caller for saying that Jewish law prohibits one from killing another person not in self defense. This was regarding the Holocaust if a Nazi forced a Jew to kill someone or be killed himself. He started a rant about Rabbis being to blame that so many Jews died, and that one should have killed instead. I wanted to retort, but I wasn’t the caller, that that’s exactly what the Germans claimed – they were only following orders… (And there was no guarantee that the Nazi whould keep his end of the deal either.)
I didn’t listen to the show in question, I’m just trying to illustrate that he’s not as smart as he whould like us to think, and a huge bigot. We have a tough PR issue to deal with regarding metzitzah b’peh, but I’d be more concerned in getting through to the pols. than him.April 10, 2013 3:56 am at 3:56 am #1027948
How would you respond to Savage on Metzitzah
I would borrow a famous line from someone and say: “Get off my phone… Will you??
And I would actually get off it myself.April 10, 2013 3:59 am at 3:59 am #1027949playtimeMember
sharp- isn’t that Mark Levin?April 10, 2013 4:01 am at 4:01 am #1027950
Or Bob Grant..April 10, 2013 4:09 am at 4:09 am #1027951
I thought it was done intentionally for search purposes. The original spelling.April 10, 2013 4:22 am at 4:22 am #1027953☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
PBA: Safek Sakanah is a Kol Shehu. Even Echad Mini Elef.
Don’t drive then; for that matter, don’t leave the house. I certainly hope that you don’t light Shabbos or Chanukah candles.April 10, 2013 6:20 am at 6:20 am #1027954ShalomToYouMember
No need to respond to Savage. He hasn’t said anything we haven’t heard before from other disrespectful anti-semites.
I listened to Savage for years. While he can be funny and often makes good points, the man is an unbelievable megalomaniac and is very nasty to anyone who doesn’t agree with him.
Bottom line, Savage is an entertainer. You wouldn’t care what a juggler or clown says. You gotta enjoy the good and ignore the rest.April 10, 2013 10:13 am at 10:13 am #1027955frumnotyeshivishParticipant
I think the “ick” factor is why this is such an issue not only for Savage but for every secular person I’ve spoken to or read on the issue including the District Judge who split hairs she never would have otherwise to avoid strict scrutiny.
That’s why I virulently defend MBP to anyone (secular and interested) listening. My emotions about MBP are similar to my emotions about smoking in this regard. Ya, it’s not healthy but it’s not treated fairly.
On the other hand, half of me thinks that even with strict scrutiny the reg should be left alone.
All of me thinks that the purpose of the reg is appropriate (albeit half unconstitutional): make sure parents know what’s happening, and make sure a murdering Mohel is on the hook the first time before others are murdered (or negligently manslaughtered… whatever you want to call the act of making a baby dead because they didn’t care enough).April 10, 2013 10:50 am at 10:50 am #1027956147Participant
Bottom line, Savage is an entertainer.
KiShemi Ken Hu:- Hence:- Bottom Line:- Savage is a savage.April 10, 2013 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1027958
Sam, sorry, I missed your response before.
As DY notes, that is obviously not the halacha since everything in the world has some safek of causing death–and in fact most everyday things have a much higher risk than does MBP. And more on point, bris milah itself can cause death in some situations and we only don’t do it when there is chazaka from the brothers that (I think) 3 already died from bris.April 10, 2013 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1027959MorahRachMember
I used a VERY renowned and well know moihel for my sons bris over the summer. He did not perform mbp. He does not. I know many,many people who use a d have used him, some of wh are former talmidim of Rav Moshe. So can someone explain to me who does hold that you must do mbp and those who don’t. This argument always get me, I definitely would not be able to defend it if a secular person asked me to.
On a quick side. To basically say that it’s fine because not enough babies are dying to cause concern PBA, I do not believe you actually agree with what you said.April 10, 2013 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #1027960
Some poskim do hold it is necessary, and some don’t. I don’t know who exactly does and doesn’t but that doesn’t really matter to me. There are large communities, especially chassidim who hold it is necessary.
On a quick side. To basically say that it’s fine because not enough babies are dying to cause concern PBA, I do not believe you actually agree with what you said.
It is not nice to tell someone they don’t agree with that they said. And I do agree with it, and I am beyond surprised that you do not.
As noted, every activity in the world carries some risk of death. Many more people die from taking a shower (and falling) than from MBP. And people die from bris milah itself even without MBP. People die from driving cars, crossing streets, and riding bicycles.
People die because our NOx standards at factories are set where they are, and are not set lower. People die because we allow some amount of pollutants into the ocean.
People die because we don’t do an MRI to everyone who goes into a hospital. People die because we don’t do every blood test in the world every time you go to the doctor. Babies die because we don’t do a sonogram every day during pregnancy. Babies die because we don’t keep them in the hospital for observation for a month.
Life is about balancing risk against cost. Unless life has infinite value, there will always be things that are worth more than some chance of dying. Driving cars is worth more than some chance of dying, saving money is worth more than some chance of babies dying from not doing endless sonograms, and performing a bris properly according to halacha is worth more than some chance of babies dying from it.
Of course, at some point the chance is too big, and we do sonograms sometimes, we drive below certain speeds, we limit NOx emissions somewhat, we do MRI’s sometimes, and we don’t do a bris if 3 brothers died from it.
To state therefore that “any chance is too much” puts infinite value on life and cannot be true. It is not true.April 10, 2013 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1027961
Pba it sounds like u agree with the city.
The city isn’t banning, just making people aware of the risk. We all know there is a risk involved in driving. We try to limit that risk for kids by requiring car seats/ seatbelts. I know mire than one person who before the recent hullabaloo didn’t know about mbp, and hired a chasidish mohel who did mbp. The city us saying you want to do mbp, fipne just be aware iof the risk and get parents permission.April 10, 2013 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1027962afsherParticipant
ubiquitin: You would support the city’s approach, too, if the city distributed literature in hospitals warning parents against having a Bris Milah due to the health risk or death a Bris can in a small number of cases cause. And you would, of course, support the city’s mandate requiring all Mohelim to give parents a form to sign before they are permitted to perform a Bris, that advises the parents that the city recommends against having a Bris due to the health hazards.April 10, 2013 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1027963
I have no problem with making parents aware of the risk. I do have a few problems with the city though:
1. Their public statements show a pretty bad intent. They basically see bris milah in general as medieval and barbaric, and certainly MBP, and would like to ban at least MBP entirely. I think they view this as a step in the process.
2. They overstate the risk to parents, and they base their findings on junk science. If it is really that important, set up a real scientific study and figure it out. A study of 6 kids is known as “anecdotal evidence”.
3. I think it is a dangerous step to begin regulating religious rituals. I am quite scared of where this can go. I do not think we are far from seeing bris outlawed entirely.
(And as an aside, seat belts have been shown to NOT reduce injuries and deaths from driving. People who don’t wear seatbelts drive slower to make up for the risk, and people who wear seatbelts adjust their risk by driving faster.)April 10, 2013 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1027964
Afsher, I’m not sure what you mean, the city is not opposed to circumcision. Neither is the medical community, it is a personal preferance. And yes the mohel should avsolutky get parents permission before going around circuncisising children. Everybody knows there is an element of risk involved in taking a knife to a child it is a risk we accept because it us ratzon hashem. Not everyone realizes mbp involves risk and not everyone views it as ratzon hashem, and not everyone knows if the mohel will do it.
Pba, so beetzem you agree with the city you are just afraid of where it will leadApril 10, 2013 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1027965
Pba, so beetzem you agree with the city you are just afraid of where it will lead
No, b’etzem what I said above.April 10, 2013 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #1027966
PBA: But that’s only when those risks are necessary. Also, Diracheha Darchei Noam. We have a Havtacha from HKBH that Mitzvos won’t be life-threatening unless they involve Kiddush Hashem. I’m not pro-government regulating it. I am very much pro us making sure that our Mohalim aren’t endangering babies.April 10, 2013 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1027967afsherParticipant
ubiquitin: What I mean is that just as the city is today opposed to MBP tommorow they may be opposed to Bris Milah in general. Or at least aim to regulate. And mandate signed forms to be signed before Bris can be performed. At least as a first step. You of course should support that for the same reasons you support the constitutionality of mandating signed consent for MBP.April 10, 2013 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1027968☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Sam2, if it were pikuach nefesh as you erroneously state, nothing would make it considered “necessary”.
It would be assur to drive to the zoo with your kids, because it’s not strictly necessary.
We have a Havtacha from HKBH that Mitzvos won’t be life-threatening
You should retract your opinion, because some hold that MBP is part of the mitzvah.
I find it ironic that you think this is the stupidest thing PBA has ever said.April 10, 2013 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1027969
Sam: Ok, and many poskim hold this is halachically necessary. My rebbeim don’t, and yours don’t, but many do.
Also, I don’t know what you mean the “risks are necessary”. What makes something necessary? You would take less risk if you only showered every other day–is taking a shower daily necessary? Is it necessary to not do a sonogram every day?April 10, 2013 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1027970
I find it ironic that you think this is the stupidest thing PBA has ever said.
I don’t think he went that far. I’ve said some pretty stupid things.
He said “stupid” in reference to the reducto ad absurdum argument he was making. I’m ok with that.April 10, 2013 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1027971
Afsher, so like Pba you are not really opposed to the city, you are just (perhaps legitimately so) afraid if where it will lead.
As to your question yes if there was an issue if people having brie milah done on their children without their knowledge or permission, and/or people had no idea that their is some risk involved I absolutely would support a law requiring a mohel to get the parental permission (written if neccesary) prior to doing a bris. Who on earth wouldn’t?April 10, 2013 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1027972
PBA: I’m just curious, is that even true? What Poskim hold that it must be Davka B’peh and not with a tube? I feel like most sources discussing it don’t say anything either way and those who refuse the tube are just reacting to a perceived attack on the religion.April 10, 2013 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1027973
Afsher, so like Pba you are not really opposed to the city, you are just
It isn’t nice to misrepresent what people say, right after they tell you that you are misrepresenting it.April 10, 2013 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1027974
It appears to be true. I don’t know any sources.April 10, 2013 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #1027975
Pba, sorry I wrote that before your comment went up.
Though in points #1 and 3 above you indicate that you are not opposed to THIS enactment but are afraid if where it will lead.
(Point #2 is silly we rely doctors for medical advice most if them view it as dangerous. Calling it “junk science” or writing an article in dialogue doesn’t make that go away)April 10, 2013 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1027976The little I knowParticipant
Change the channel.April 10, 2013 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1027977PBTMember
Is this Michael Savage, the infamous talk show host who hates Torah Jews? I’d put him in Cherem.
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