May 8, 2022 8:54 am at 8:54 am #2084069GotAGoodPointParticipant
Who has more rights? Husband or Wife?
Who has more responsibilities? Husband or Wife?May 8, 2022 10:11 am at 10:11 am #2084247gildaParticipant
Every man and woman have different tafkids its not a matter of who has more.May 8, 2022 11:40 am at 11:40 am #2084286
Sounds like your attempt to stir up controversy during sefira fell flat…
B”HMay 8, 2022 11:40 am at 11:40 am #2084280
I think the is a question best asked to the TROLLER rebbe or the TROLLER rosh hayeshiva, I know they have a seder in this inyan in the TROLL bais hamedreshMay 8, 2022 11:42 am at 11:42 am #2084289Reb EliezerParticipant
The wife makes a bracha שעשני כרצונו, He made me according to His will. Through her existence she performs a mitzva being there to support her husband. We call a wedding a nisuyin meaning to elevate. Each one elevates the other by placing them on a pedestal.May 8, 2022 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #2084297
A husband he has both more responsibilities and rights.May 8, 2022 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #2084305
Let the sock puppeting begin —May 8, 2022 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #2084308
When I saw ujm’s name under this thread, I knew exactly what he was going to say 🙄May 8, 2022 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #2084309May 8, 2022 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #2084334
Bored-Teen: Do you have any knowledge of Halacha that allows you to dispute my point?May 8, 2022 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #2084395☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Didn’t see Bored_teen disputing any pointsMay 8, 2022 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2084398
why give credent to a troll?May 8, 2022 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #2084416
By more do you mean in quantity, or the quantified quality? I have no idea how to tally rights versus responsibilities, outside of one on one litigation. So I cannot apply it to marriage. Or even divorce.May 8, 2022 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #2084417
Ujm- I wasn’t/won’t dispute your point because people like you aren’t looking for answers. All I was saying was that you’ve said the same thing so many times that I can predict your responses.
DaasYochid- Exactly!May 8, 2022 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #2084453Golden Middle WayParticipant
It always feels like a man has more rights because a woman has to be committed to her husband and follow his ways and respect him. But i guess in the kesuba the husband also has rights to his wife. Responsibilities you really can’t compare and measure. He has a responsibility to keep mitzvos, kovea itim etc. Whilst a lady has a responsibility to look after the house, food, kids, finances (this is a probably a dangerous word to say) and looking after him. Woman’s rights etc. is totally non-Jewish so forget about that one. We should be grateful for whatever position Hashem put us in, and if any person was jealous they of opposite gender, I feel sorry for them. gotagoodpoint I am curious to know why you started this thread?!?
Just a funny story I heard about husband/wife rights/responsibilities – the wife and husband were splitting the household roles exactly in half, the husband will have to look after his child the exact same amount of time his wife did!! And the same for cleaning/dinner etc…May 8, 2022 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #2084456GadolhadorahParticipant
Perhaps given its Mother’s Day, we should all include Mrs. UJM in our thoughts given the enormous responsibilities she carries on behalf of the varbeshe klal.May 8, 2022 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #2084471
Of course the husband has rights that the wife doesn’t – Miranda rights.May 8, 2022 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #2084476
My joke above didn’t go well in my household. Now, I need to explain who this Miranda is, and how I got to know her. Unfortunately, 1st and 5th parts of bill of rights were incorporated down to states and towns, but not households, so men generally don’t enjoy those rights.May 8, 2022 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #2084477
If men were responsible for pesach and women for sukkos, they would start on the same day.May 8, 2022 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #2084478
Erev PesachMay 8, 2022 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #2084484AviraDeArahParticipant
Just go through mishnayos kesuvos and kidushin..why post about it one way or another.May 8, 2022 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #2084523
In modern Western society, contaminated by feminism, it is deemed verboten to discuss men’s rights or women’s responsibilities. According to the powers that be in American culture, it is only permissible to discuss women’s rights and men’s responsibilities.May 8, 2022 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #2084529
Mishayos may be a long way to start getting there for a bochur, but if someone is currently married, a faster way would be to observe talmidei chachamim interacting with their wives, and other way around… Even bochrim, like Akiva and haverav would prefer learning actual practice, going so far as hiding under rebbe’s bed… Torah hi velilmod ani tzarichMay 8, 2022 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2084534GadolhadorahParticipant
CR trollistic adaptation of classic 19th century German slogan of Kinder, Küche, Kirche (loosely translated as “children, kitchen, church” ) which was used to describe a woman’s role in society. The phrase is vaguely equivalent to the American misogynistic anthem of “barefoot and pregnant” and somewhat more elegant Evangelical X’stian themes of a “special” subordinate role. I suspect that several of our justices likely believe the 19th amendment was “wrongly decided” by Congress and the ratifying states and certainly inconsistent with the original intent of the founding FATHERS.May 8, 2022 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2084535☕️coffee addictParticipant
The רמב״ם says that she should treat him like a king and he should treat her like a queen
It seems like they’re equalMay 8, 2022 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #2084538user176Participant
If you measure responsibilities by number of missvot the answer is clear. Otherwise, while it may be nice to know, Baruch Hashem both men and women have plenty of responsibilities to keep them both occupied constantly. Usually we don’t count our rights in Judaism.
I once heard from Rabbi Akiva Tatz that marriage is not a division of responsibilities, it is two people coming together to do everything they can to help the other. Definitely something to strive for.May 8, 2022 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #2084561
AAQ: Are you suggesting we learn from the interactions described by Chazal between the heilige Tanna Rabi Meir and his Rebbetzin Bruria?May 8, 2022 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #2084563
Coffee Addict: A Queen is not equal to the King. Similarly, the Halacha is that a wife must do her husband’s will, whereas the reverse is not the case.May 8, 2022 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #2084564
and as all good trolls, the OP disappears into the sunset
Or sometimes they sign back in but with the wrong user nameMay 8, 2022 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #2084577
“must do her husband’s will” Please quote correctly.May 8, 2022 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #2084584
There are kings and queens that are merely consorts of the reigning spouse, like recently in England (historically, mostly queens indeed, but there were enough real queens in history), and there are those where both were powerful, like Isabella and Ferdinand of Spain. Does anyone comment on what Rambam had in mind?May 8, 2022 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #2084597
Learning from R Meir and Beruriah? of course, both from their achievements and shortcomings. Why would Gemorah bring those stories otherwise – just to make fun of them? R Yehuda himself brought Beruriah as a (positive) example to a guy who wanted to learn too much too fast.
Regarding the family, you can learn from Rav whose wife always sent him the dish opposite of what he requested and his “smart” son changed his words and made Rav happy for a moment (not just with the right dish, but with the fact that the wife changed her attitude).
There is a lot to learn from this (direct one – do not teach kids to lie even in permissible case of shalom), but – if you can keep the secret here – I learned to request the opposite of what I really want in those – rare, very rare! – cases when I expect make request to be reversed. It was most important for Rav to have a peaceful spouse, but I am humble enough to be satisfied just with the right beans in cholent.May 8, 2022 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #2084598
You people must have low IQs to take the troll at face value, want to buy a bridge?May 8, 2022 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #2084602
> be in American culture, it is only permissible to discuss women’s rights and men’s responsibilities.
says the man who either did not give ketubah or did not listen carefully when it was read to him.May 8, 2022 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #2084613
AAQ: American/Western culture has absolutely zero to do with the Kesuba, Torah Judaism or with Klal Yisroel.May 8, 2022 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #2084614
AAQ: You’ll notice that when the King is sovereign, his wife is entitled Queen Consort. But when the Queen is sovereign, her husband is not entitled King Consort. This is because the title of King, by definition, outranks the title of Queen.May 8, 2022 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #2084625
I think a thread offering to sell a bridge will get many responses.May 9, 2022 12:10 am at 12:10 am #2084641
“must do her husband’s will” Please quote correctly.”
Per your request, here’s the exact original:
וְכֵן צִוּוּ עַל הָאִשָּׁה שֶׁתִּהְיֶה מְכַבֶּדֶת אֶת בַּעְלָהּ בְּיוֹתֵר מִדַּאי וְיִהְיֶה עָלֶיהָ מוֹרָא מִמֶּנּוּ וְתַעֲשֶׂה כָּל מַעֲשֶׂיהָ עַל פִּיו. וְיִהְיֶה בְּעֵינֶיהָ כְּמוֹ שַׂר אוֹ מֶלֶךְ. מְהַלֶּכֶת בְּתַאֲוַת לִבּוֹ וּמַרְחֶקֶת כָּל מַה שֶּׁיִּשְׂנָא. וְזֶה דֶּרֶךְ בְּנוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל וּבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל הַקְּדוֹשִׁים וְהַטְּהוֹרִים בְּזִוּוּגָן. וּבִדְרָכִים אֵלּוּ יִהְיֶה יִשּׁוּבָן נָאֶה וּמְשֻׁבָּח:May 9, 2022 12:12 am at 12:12 am #2084648
Btw, did this come up because this is today’s daf in Yevamos that the man should honor his wife more than himself? First cheerful words after 60 pages of plagues killing brothers and sisters left and right and listing all perversions currently approved by the supreme courts…May 9, 2022 12:13 am at 12:13 am #2084655
Ujm, what I meant is that Kesuba (at least mine) lists my responsibilities and none of my rights against your claims. You need to leave mitzraim, you are in De Nile.May 9, 2022 7:23 am at 7:23 am #2084658
why half-quote Rambam?!
וְזֶה דֶּרֶךְ בְּנוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל וּבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל – this refers to both men and women referring to the previous para explaining hw the man should behave, not just women. For example, the 2nd par that she should do maaseiah al piv “everything that comes out of his mouth” sounds conditional on 1st par – not make her fear him veihe diburo benahas. So expressing “your will” in a fear inspiring or even strict manner seems to be out of question.
One thing that is clear from this Rambam is that nobody should talk H’V to his wife the way people talk on CR – and expect to be treated as a King!May 9, 2022 7:24 am at 7:24 am #2084661
Don’t you agree that that is much better?May 9, 2022 7:25 am at 7:25 am #2084662
AAQ: I specifically referred to American/Western culture. Even though too much of that Gentile weltanschauung has most unfortunately infiltrated even some quarters of ours, as you often demonstrate first hand, you are deliberately confusing the Kesuba into an American culture that has no bearing on the point.May 9, 2022 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #2085078
ujm, I wish your arguments would be as strong as your convictions, and the arrows of your enemies as precise as your quotations!
As to assimilation – just because I might quote an occasional scientist, I am not more assimilated than those who smoke second-hand social media without realizing it (also witnessed on this board). Note that chochma of goyim is valuable, while stupid superstitions are not.May 10, 2022 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2085217Reb EliezerParticipant
They say if the husband is a king, the wife is a queen.May 11, 2022 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2085737alonikiParticipant
husband has more rightsMay 12, 2022 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #2086102yehudis21Participant
Bet ujm has that quote on his wall and that his wife loves it.
EDITED: Bet ujm has that quote on the wall of his basement bedroom and that his mother puts up with it as long as he does his own laundry once a week.May 23, 2022 11:16 am at 11:16 am #2089855tunaisafishParticipant
“Bet ujm has that quote on his wall and that his wife loves it.”
i think we should here more from Ujm on the shiduch crises as he has experience…May 23, 2022 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2089889
One of my three wives isn’t sure I should take on the responsibilities of having a fourth. The other two are all for it.
That’s my Shidduch Crisis. My Rov/Posek, who is Moroccan like myself, is still mulling it over.May 23, 2022 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #2089912GadolHadofiParticipant
So you’re Moroccan from “a holocaust survivor family” who “lived in the shtetl”?
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