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I don’t think it’s a secret that I think we need more manpower to help our existing soldiers bear the burden of war, but one thing that I find puzzling is the attitude among some Charedim, especially the Charedi politicians in the Knesset, who lean right politically and support the war until we meet our objectives (destroying Hamas for example), but still maintaining that their constituents should not bear the physical and spiritual sacrifice of fighting that war. It’s one thing if you don’t want to fight and therefore oppose the war in its entirety. But to support sending out our boys and men to risk everything to fight against our common enemy but oppose bitterly any attempt to join their ranks seems so selfishly hypocritical.
It’s shocking, I say – just shocking. Who’d have thought Chareidi leaders would be hypocritical?
Oh – wait…
an Israeli Yid
The Chareidi parties do NOT take a position on how to conduct the war or when to end it (or not the it).
False narrative.
Simcha613,
That is a pretty lame argument (no offense)ujm is correct.
false narrative.
.Well, they are, especially a certain housing minister.
Anyone who reads the Hebrew language press knows this.
Victory in a single war is not justification to collapse the entire haredi population, because if two thirds of chatei boys enlist, and two thirds off them go off the derech, the trend will snowball even to those who did not enlist, because it will mean a popular off the derech movement, empty yeshivos, no manpower for education.
Anyway the IDFs lethality is not made or broken by enlistment of 10 % of the population (but really only 5, since no one is talking about enlisting girls yet (that will come later)), especially the 5 persent least useful for a military, with lowest militancy/physical excellence culture. If the IDF is so desperate, enlist Arab youth who spend all day playing Call of Duty anyway.
The haredi parties are hypocritical. They should make public apologies to the Peles people, who turned out to be right about everything, but their ego won’t let them.The pro-Zionist Hareidim have always had a problem since they sit in the Kenesset, schnoring money for their constituents (what politicians do best), and not kibbitzing on most areas of policy (unlike the openly zionist dattim who are superhawks but at least they put their own kids on the line). The non-Zionist Hareidim (Satmar, Eides Hareidis, Neturei Karta, etc.) don’t go after government funding, and it will be interesting if the Israeli government will try to prosecute the for not serving in the IDF since they are clearly conscientious objectors (whereas the pro-Zionist Hareidim tend to be “chicken hawks”).
simcha613:
Normal people in normal countries support their country’s armed forces and want them to succeed, even if they themselves do not join those armed forces. There is nothing puzzling about that.The Zionist paradise is not normal, of course, in that it and its army’s main purpose is to change Jews and Judaism into godless and idolatrous Zionists and Zionism. But the Jews living in the Zionist paradise still want their armed forces to succeed in protecting the country and to return home safely, like elsewhere.
the response of @ujm is likely accurate, but one would need to review the actual input and responses of those politicians within the kenesset.
However, this would still be missing the point. So called “charedi” politicans are (unlike the religious followers of zionism) NOT Jewish thought leaders and their ideas, words, or actions mean nothing to the Jewish public. They are, at best, plumbers that some have been appointed by agudistim to handle the mess generated by zionism. at worst, they are just another snake in the snake pit, but with a long black coat.
The Torah rejects zionism and its immoral wars. The soldiers, like German soldiers in WWII, are a grave danger to Jews worldwide. As with any aveira, nothing good will come from their reliance on “kochi v’otzem yudi” and their weapons of death and violence.
You do realize that most of the soldiers do nothing most of the time.
They don’t need more soldiers they need better management.Well, they are, and anyone who reads the Hebrew language media knows it. Including Charedim themselves.
Wow. How off can you be? I guess – VERY!
We may agree that we need more manpower to help our existing soldiers bear the burden of war, but to say that that we “oppose bitterly any attempt to join their ranks seems so selfishly hypocritical”, is a major misunderstanding of the basics of the frum hashkafa.
First of all, we truly believe that by sitting and learning we are helping as much and even more than the soldiers on the front.
על שלשה דברים העולם עומד, על התורה וכו. The worlds existence is dependent on the learning of our bnei Torah.
This does not mean that we don’t need soldiers, we need them and we daven for their success.
But to believe that כחי ועצם ידי עשה לי את החיל הזה is obviously not true as we all see by now.
Secondly, there is no way that a frum yid can join the army if he will not return from the army on the same level of ehrlichkait.
Meanwhile, this is not possible in the current situation of the army.So our brothers and children are doing what really counts to keep our country safe, and are constantly being knocked and mocked, but move on doing what’s right. Until אור חדש על ציון תאיר ונזכה כולנן במהרה לאורו
The real Hypocisy is with the state of Israel now run by the Supreme Court and the Attorney General- all Eirav Rav- who are waging a war against the Chareidim and the Yeshivos.
The reason to not join the Israeli army is because the decisions are made by secular politicians, lawmakers and judges, a Torah Jew has no right to place his life in the hands of secular decision makers who send soldiers to die en masse instead of carpet bombing from the air. All other reasons and discussions are mere attempts to distract attention from the plain and simple truth. In the army of a genuine Malchus Yisroel Torah Jews from all backgrounds and professions will be the first to join like Matisyahu Kohen Gadol and his sons.
You answered the question yourself- “bear the physical AND SPIRITUAL sacrifices etc”. Their spirituality is not theirs to sacrifice, it belongs to G-D. The physical sacrifices they would be fine with……… But either way the premise of your question is ridiculous. All politicians are hypocritical regardless of right left or center
reb mutche> we truly believe that by sitting and learning we are helping as much and even more … there is no way that a frum yid can join the army if he will not return from the army on the same level of ehrlichkait.
Can we examine this position? It seems to be coming from a very self-centered point of view: there is a country that does it’s own thing and then there is “us” who decide on what condition we will participate. Maybe let’s look at this as everyone is a citizen of an (imperfect, but democratic) country:
1) are you fulfilling your responsibility by choosing to ignore what the country needs? is this a yassachar/zevulun partnership when yassachar grabs money from zevulun rather than signs a contract? do you also exclude people fro your community who are not learning themselves or who are not learning
2) seems that you genuinely feel that you have responsibility but the risk is too high. This is important to show – as many of your opponents feel that the risks are just excuses and, thus, no meaningful dialog is possible. So, maybe you need to be proactive and actively go in the directions that minimize the risk: select jobs that are less risky – engineers, cyber, drivers … select people who can survive the risk (Steipler survived Russian army, there should be some people who are able to spend several months near non-religious mena and women)… provide training and support to these people who can guide and monitor the soldiers.
Mordechai is right.
The real hypocrisy are those lefties who suppress democracy for their own benefit , misusing the concept of democracy itself.
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