I don’t think parents should be telling schools what they should teach,”

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee I don’t think parents should be telling schools what they should teach,”

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    Are those words going to cost Terry McAuliffe the VA. Governship?


    Wait a few weeks and I’ll get back to you.


    its 5 days in case you forgot

    ☕️coffee addict

    He does have a point

    If the parents don’t like it they should home school
    Or move
    Or run for school board
    Or vote for the other guy

    But as the things stand they technically are stuck


    WSJ had an interesting opinion lately by some lawyer saying that it should be possible to argue first amendment: schools have a right to speak, but they are imposing their speech on students, and the cost of avoiding it, as coffee says – private schooling, moving – is prohibitive for most. If something like this flues through the current supreme court, this could immediately force a voucher system. Not sure how convincing this is, but more bizarre things were found in constitution emanations.


    Do you apply same words to Jewish schools? I know many schools do.


    Why should the teachers (or rather the teacher’s union) decide what school’s teach. That should rest with the board of directors, which for a public school, are the parents (or the voters at large). The WOKE movement is attempting to define its own class of self-proclaimed exerts as an aristocracy, that will rule without regard to what the people want. Its very similar to England in the early Middle Ages (e.g. 13th century) when the Lords were the only decision makers, and the idea of a commons had yet to be born.


    Contemporary public schools indoctrinate their children with secularism, antireligion and left-wing dogmas.

    bored_teen 💕

    @coffee addict
    I disagree. Parents should be able to send their kids to school without worry that their kids will be exposed to anti American or explicit ideas. Also, a lot of liberals/pro McAuliffe people support abolishing private and home schools. Ana Kasparian (The Young Turks) said this in a debate with Ben Shapiro.

    ☕️coffee addict


    “Also, a lot of liberals/pro McAuliffe people support abolishing private and home schools.”

    And how does that argue with my point?

    Really in all fairness running for school board helps

    People’s tax dollars pay for public school just like they pay for speed cameras, I don’t like that my money is going to it but I don’t have a say in the matter

    bored_teen 💕

    Because you said that they should homeschool! There is a legal mandate for children to be schooled (not everyone has enough financial flexibility to homeschool) there isn’t a legal mandate to pass the cameras!

    bored_teen 💕

    Youngkin is four points up in the polls, that says something! Also, the Daily Wire (Ben Shapiro’s publication) report about the Loudon County (public school) assault coverup contributed a lot.


    this all just shows that state is not the proper way to do things. a free market school system would by definition not have these challenges




    In a Jewish educational system, parents are not baalei batim on chinuch, even though they pay and support the yeshiva – rabbis are bettee equipped and qualified to decide what to teach, and parents who are not interested are able to simply find a different school, and then proceed to support that institution and its rabbis; in neither case is the parent influencing the school itself. But to demand payment from parents who do not send their kids to the school is baseless.

    Logically, if one is obligated as a tax payer to support the schools, they should have a say in how the school is run, even if due to their personal beliefs they are forced to send their kids to private school. If they don’t want parents to have a say in how the school is managed, they should allow a tax rebate for parents who opt out of the system and have their children attend private or home schooling. That way, the public school can say “this is how we want to run the school – if you don’t like it, take your children elsewhere”.

    That’s all regarding mere disagreements. When the issue is the degeneration and upheaval of all foundations of civilization, it becomes an issue that affects the entire society, even people who don’t have school aged children. If a school decides to teach children to be murderers for instance, that has an impact on me no matter what my personal stake is in the institution, because I’m going to have to live with the unfortunate souls who will be the product of that education


    Avira, so you agree with that former Governor of VA …

    according to my reading of Bava Basra history of Jewish school during 2nd Beis Hamikdash (and some others too), preferred way would be to have fathers teaching sons; when they are not able to, then the best would be for most holy teachers (Cohanim in Yerushalim in Gemora) to teach them – while still generally living at home (fathers are supposed to bring them). When that is not working, use regional yeshivos, and last resort that works universally is the current system of local yeshivos.

    Yes, this system helps to keep the bottom from falling down, as designed, but let’s not pretend that this is the best way to raise kids.


    I don’t know the details of this case, but I do know from the experience of several teachers I am close with that the absolute worst thing a school can do is capitulate to parents and decide the curriculum based on what they demand.


    “Are those words going to cost Terry McAuliffe the VA. Governship?”


    That would be a big step in restoring control of the nation to leaders who aren’t trying to destroy it.


    Yeserbius, well the time has come that now when so many members of the school boards, principals and teachers in public schools are perverts and self-hating racists and people who belong behind bars and mental institutions that parents must speak up.


    Philosopher – I’d rather not mention the examples of horrifying perverted child abuse that is currently being decried by parents across the country ..oi leoznaim shekach shom’os…children are being sexualized and exposed to things that are beyond pritzus, they are being programmed to be spiritually and mentally ill.

    Of course, it’s only a matter of time before the weaker among us begin education programs that mimic some of these ideas


    There is a good chance that most of the commenters so far in this thread do not have children ion public school, did not attend public school and are not on their local school board.

    I attended public high school for secular subjects and Yeshiva high school in the morning for religious studies. My mother was a public school teacher, principal and retired as Asst Supt. of Schools.

    I served two terms as an elected member of my local Board of Education. 4 of the 6 members of the BOE were parents of children in the schools. They had and have a say in curriculum.

    Our school board is up for election this Tuesday. There will be 8 members (no more than 4 form any party may serve). of the 12 candidates 8 have children in the schools, the other 4 have older children who graduated already.

    The curriculum committee and the curriculum director annually reports its plans to the BOE at a PUBLIC hearing. Parents may comment and challenge the proposed curriculum (and they do). Only after the hearings may the BOE adopt the curriculum for the coming year.

    Parents and taxpayers have a voice, but only recently do they show up and make their opinions heard. For many years, few people showed up and spoke or asked questions at the public hearings.

    For democracy to work, you must participate, not just gripe on line.


    How are you feeling?


    Ctlawyer -“There is a good chance that most of the commenters so far in this thread do not have children ion public school, did not attend public school and are not on their local school board.”

    In Lakewood most of the Members of our School Board are Frum, even though they don’t send their kids to P.S.
    You’re a smart guy – can you figure out – Why?!?


    @Moderator 29
    B”H 98% recovered from my eye surgeries. Still have to limit screen time as they will not be able to prescribe permanent lenses until 90 days after I stop the medications following surgeries.
    Strangest thing is driving without glasses after 50+ years. I had to go to Motor Vehicle and get them to remove the glasses required restriction on my license.


    CTL: In NYC and many other municipalities the parents and taxpayers are given no opportunity at board meetings to have any influence over the curriculum.

    The little I know


    You wrote: “the absolute worst thing a school can do is capitulate to parents and decide the curriculum based on what they demand.”

    Aside from not agreeing with you on this, there is a greater error in your thinking. The parents are not deciding what to teach. They are revolting against the new ideas that are being invited to invade the curriculum. The new garbage is not teaching, it is indoctrinating. That must be STOPPED. It is not about education, and those pushing that agenda know that well. It is about creating a younger generation whose beliefs are in socialism. It has zero to do with slavery. It is about removing patriotism from our texts, and replacing it with discrimination and reverse racism. NO! And anyone with a moral thread needs to resist this. The narrative by evil Dems is that this resistance is domestic terrorism is a malicious lie. Those promoting that need to be voted out of public office.


    same in KY, maybe Monsey, etc,

    BUT, the majority of those commenting before me in this thread don’t live in Lakewood, so my comments and observations stand.

    I have found that when those who don’t have children in the public schools try to take over a local school board it is often an attempt to keep expenditures down and local property taxes down.

    Locally, the Republicans are running a homeschooling parent for the BOE who believes public schools should be abolished and states he will not vote for any increase in the school budget during the 4 year term.


    “I have found that when those who don’t have children in the public schools try to take over a local school board it is often an attempt to keep expenditures down and local property taxes down.”

    CTL: I’m sure you heard of the good ‘ole American saying “No taxation without representation.” If you want to tax the people, those people have a right to be represented and a say. They had a right to seek to reduce expenses. If you don’t like that, then don’t tax them.


    School Board members are generally elected and thats where parents have their input as to the policy views of those who set instructional and curriculum guidelines. If you don’t like those norms, vote for candidates aligned with your views or send your kids to private schools. You cannot have individual parents making decisions for the school system at monthly board meetings.


    CTL > an attempt to keep expenditures down and local property taxes down.

    We should be able to find a healthy compromise – with gov maintaining some legit standards and parents getting what their kids need without becoming dhimmis (in terms of double taxation for education). Experience you quoted sound healthy – you attended quality public school and yeshiva. I think this approach would not fit a lot of Jewish community our days in terms of mixing with a wrong crowd, though. Vouchers combined with testing should work – provide funds to any educational institution where children can pass tests on reading, righting, rithmetics and civics. If Lakewood board is control by frum public, could they do something like that rather than just cutting the funds? The latter means that you’ll be surrounded by uneducated population creating crime and other problems.
    I found online public schools a good, if not perfect, tool – reasonable education, not much unneeded socialization. This will fit, estimated, 5-10% of population, but also not nothing.


    AAQ -“If Lakewood board is control by frum public, could they do something like that rather than just cutting the funds?”

    Lakewood has a very big P.S. Budget.
    They don’t cut funds but they increase them.
    The reason being all schools are entitled to bussing including Frum ones, acc. to State Law.


    Avirah, you are so right, it’s very scary. The ideoligy of “frum liberals” is that they accept abhorrent behaviour as normal and that “they can’t help themselves and we need to accept them the way they are”…their children see this and internalize it and it has bought serious consequences.


    Health, ok, this make sense. I projected unfairly from other places, where this happened.


    yep it cost him


    It’s strange how many posters compare public schools to frum schools, disregarding a fundamental difference in our philosophy: The US is a republic; school boards are based on parent/voter input. That is their constitutional set-up. We believe (or claim to believe) in an autocracy, at least in some ways. What our rabbonim say is seen as representative of the literal, Gd-honest truth. The kehila system is no more, so it’s easy to forget how the system is officially supposed to be designed. And yes, you can choose where to send your kids (or teach them yourself), but the fact that yeshiva curricula are set by rabbis is a feature of yiddishkeit.


    Yitz, could you please comment on Bava Basra that has no problem with fathers teaching children, except that many fathers were not capable. Nowadays, when many communities have fathers who learned for many years, it is hard to argue in favor of disenfranchising them: either yeshivos teach well and then father are now certified to teach their children, or they do not teach them, and then there is no reason to send kids there! In truth, there are a number of pro-active parents who are in chinuch who try to teach classes with their own kids.

    For a general picture, I don’t think we are an “autocracy”, I think we are a distributed system that includes respect for learned and moral authority. Those Rabbis who set curricula get funded by parents and donors, who choose who to sponsor. Our most venerable poskim acquire that position by the virtue of you asking your local Rov, he sending some of the harder questions to his Rosh Yeshiva, and Rosh yeshiva sending his hardest question to whomever he considers most appropriate to ask (that particular question). They are not (currently) appointed by a Sanhedrin.


    Yitz, the reason we compare public and Jewish schools is that they have same goal – educating a mass of population. Also, Jews in America obtain both benefits and shortcoming of the country. Many things that are “natural” for us are based on that influence. If you compare with previous times, you should be able to understand what is new and what is old. Unless you simply project your current system onto the past as you just did. There was no yeshiva curriculum before Volozhin, so by your definition, there was “no yiddishkeit”?


    AAQ, of course fathers can teach their kids; it is their mitzva. When they do so, let them teach how they’d like. This isn’t the question. You’re actually helping the other side: A learned father can more easily be told by school administrators, “Don’t like our system? Teach him yourself!”

    My post’s intention was to explain a difference, not really to defend either side. Here are a couple of opposing arguments:

    A big part of the debate going on in the secular world now is over school choice. Kids are assigned a school and they are stuck there, often despite it not providing a proper, complete education. If parents are paying taxes, and this school is their only choice in utilizing the benefits of those taxes, they claim a right to influence how the money is spent. I believe that most frum parents live in a place with a variety of schools (based on hashkafa and methodology). It becomes harder to demand that any specific school follow parental dictates. Don’t like what/how they are teaching? You have other options. What’s also true is that it’s not very likely for a yeshiva parent (who is choosing a place based on their hashkafa) to run up against a curriculum totally antithetical to their values.

    The fact that it is the mitzva of the father opens the door for a counter-argument: A basic rule of shlichus is that the appointer calls the shots. The shliach has to follow instructions in order for the shlichus to work (“litikuni shadartich”). A yeshiva cannot, of course, follow every instruction given by every parent. Should the decisions be made by parental vote? By a board elected by the parents? I don’t see a problem with setting up a yeshiva that way – but I probably wouldn’t send my kids there.


    I wish to clarify my “autocracy” comment, based on how I was taught. AAF correctly describes our distributed system. I do get to choose my rav – but I have to follow his mandates. When he doesn’t know, he goes up the chain to ask – and has to comply.
    In the past, your rav was whoever was in charge locally. If you didn’t like your rav or beis din, the only recourse was to move somewhere else – not always easy or possible. We have mpre choice now, but the basic idea did not change.

    The American Founders rejected the concept of “daas Torah” that must be followed without argument. They rejected the notion that authority figures “know best”. What they set up was a government, the goal was to protect the rights of the individual to make his/her own decisions – but without anarchy and lawlessness. That has also changed, either due to legitimate need or government overreach. Though some think that the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution should disappear, tens of millions in America (like those angry parents) still hold those truths to be self-evident.


    Re: parents v yeshivos. Bava Basra is still correct in the conclusion that most parents are not capable and we need public (Jewish) education. So, I am not talking about wholesale abandonment of a working system for something else unproven. Still, modern society allows personal flexibility in a lot of fields and it is natural to do same with the most important – Jewish education – where possible. If this would work for 10% of population, it will be huge for those kids, and then you’ll see what to do for net 10%.

    In this sense, this is the same issue in both general and Jewish communities. And obstacles are often similar. In our experience, we were first simply monitoring quality of the process and schools admins would react when we had reasonable issues with teachers, either by dumping bad teachers or moving them to less complaining classes. When we felt we need additional changes, there is a roadblock that principals were frank about: “what if everyone will ask for that”. So, it is institutional aversion of risk v. parental concerns about the kid. Both can be unreasonable. Maybe we need batei dinim that will determine what is reasonable. When I consulted several Rabbonim, not being sure that I am right on insisting on something, they often just commiserated quoting their own school experiences.


    Yitz, one question is how are school governed. When they encounter challenges – what is a control mechanism to correct them? Maybe in some closed-knit communities, there is centralized control with the Rav/Rebbe of the community getting to decide. In many cases, school is in charge on their own. This is a distinction Bava Basra makes about butchers: they are OK to have their own democratic rules unless there is T’Ch in town, then tey need to ask him to resolve disputes.

    In a discussion with one school rep, he described lovingly how he went to Steipler to ask a question about his child education. When I asked him what Gadol was consulted by the school in our case, or in other such cases – he did not have an answer …

    So, in cases, where there is no accepted halachik supervision, the other option is market and choices. The question is then how to increase them.


    yitz > The American Founders rejected the concept of “daas Torah”

    what they set up originally was a “meta community” to borrow from FFB (former face book): rules to govern multiple societies coming together. CT had a full right to have their own religion, and if you didn’t like it, you had to move to RI… We do not need US laws to tell us how to build our schools or communities, we just need them to give us freedom to do what we want and reasonable opportunities for others to build their lives so that we do not get destroyed by murder and immorality in the overall society.

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