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During times like these we need some kind of public display that’s a symbol . What would you suggest we use?
Authentic Jewish symbols which have been our symbols for thousands of years. ??????? ??????.
This week – a menorah.
Generally: Tefillin, Mezuza, Tzitzis, Shabbos candles, etc.Judaism is not the language we speak, the flag we wave, the land that we live in, or the falafel that we eat.
The more we wave the flag, the more we fool people that this secular, nationalistic, cultural nonsense makes them more Jewish.
The world must know that their Jewish identity is ONLY EXPRESSED through the tools that Hashem gave us to express our identity – Torah and mitzvos.
Those who use a flag say ????? ??? ????? (ch”v); if the Americans, Italians, French, etc. express their identity through a flag and a culture, why can’t we?
The answer is that we are completely different than any nationality. We are not just another nation with nice rituals and cultures that hold us together, rather a nation chosen by Hashem to serve Him in the way that He decided. Only those mitzvos should be used to express what makes us special as a nation.
yes go learn chassidus is a good answer, because i realized im dealing with people who don’t talk the same language as me.
whats atzmus umehus?, whats shituf? whats a rebbe? whats atzilus? whats a neshama?
btw in 5752 vayera the rebbe says every jew its atzmus umehus, also a maamer in 5712 i remember, also bahaloscha 5751. the point is as already stated, it says it in tanya and in chassidus all over, thats one of the reasons why the misnagdim then burned tanya, cuz they said its apikorsus. the alter rebbe wrote a letter to the misnagdim about this idea printed in igeres hakodesh (4th part of tanya) chapter 25. its based on kisvei ari zal. and it has to do with how to understand the tzimtzum. see tanya shaar hayichud veemunaha bracha from a tzadik?! kefirah! a”z! its via a tzadik vda”l
ad on the side of this page “touro takes you to the top”!? hashem does! a”zTo the group
Sechel83 said that misnagsim burned the Tanya. I’ve never heard thst before. Is it true?
I believe that happened with the toldos, which was a much more cryptic sefer.
Kedoshei elyon burned the moreh nevuchim too; this isn’t very surprising.
And those who burned the moreh under the guidance of their rebbe were rewarded for doing so, just as those who learned it because their rebbe told them to would receive the same schar.
Is flag such a goyishe idea? Shvatim had flags. We didn’t need flags for a long time that we didn’t have an army so the idea became foreign. Also, we should appreciate tzionim for their position:
1. Original flag had 7 golden stars for a 7 hour work day… at least not 7 work days … I guess they couldn’t agree on number of work hours, so then they grasped for talles colors
2. Compare with bundists who were as non religious sans EY
Their flag was half red, half black, a bilbul of communists and anarchistsTo the group
The last time I checked Israel was a country. It’s a democracy with a Knesset the whole nine yards. Now we have a group of American Jews who want to tell Israel how it should be run. That’s a terrible Chutzpah. One of Rav Shach’s main complaints against the Rebbe is that he tried to “Mish Arein” into Israeli politics from Brooklyn. We’ll have a Torah-based society when Moshiach comes, but for now, we should keep our mouths and Seforim open.
Is flag such a goyishe idea? Shvatim had flags.
Flags themselves are not the issue (at the Chabad Lag B’Omer parade, there was usually an American flag, Tzivos Hashem flag and Mesibos Shabbos flag).
The zionist flag however was made specifically as part of a general movement to create a secular brand of Judaism, the flag is part of the symbols that we can be ??? ?????? ch”v.Now we have a group of American Jews who want to tell Israel how it should be run.
It is the obligation of every Jew, especially a majorly influential Jew, to do everything in his or her power to ensure the spiritual safety and physical safety of the Jewish people anywhere in the world, especially in Eretz Yisroel which is every Jew’s homeland.
To .Menachem Shmei
Yes Chabad is going to use its connections to eliminate Israel’s flag and replace it with the Chsbad flag. That should really go over well with the freier.Rav shach would consult rav moshe frequently on political issues; it’s not only that the Lubavitcher rebbe was in Brooklyn. Rav Moshe was in Manhattan, which is a few miles further from eretz yisroel.
Those who hold of being involved in the government believe in trying to make it as close to judaism as possible, not a separation of church and state. Even rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik said that a state that will not become religious isn’t worthwhile. The Lubavitcher rebbe presumably would want the state to be run according to halacha too. Whether that makes us “no better than Uganda” is not a logical, Torah based argument.
funy how people try to make up history today instead of reading books and seforim printed from the time.
?????? ??? ??, ?
??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???”? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ????????. ?
????????? ???? ????????? ?????????? ??? ??? ??”? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????????To sechel83
Funny how you can’t spell “funy”. What is your point? Maybe others understand your postings but I rarely do.
What’s your point from that ???? obviously it’s a ????? not ?????? ???
Let’s not get into this endless topic which has merited countless posts in the CR.
Make another thread for it.5783, it just shows in plain sight what happens when people who are not holding by it learn Kabbola.
To mdd1
You’re absolutely right. Kabbalah is for a select few. Definitely not for the masses.
@5783 thats my point, don’t attack someone who says something you don’t understand. and if you think that saying something like that deserves attack, well attack the medrash rabba then.
@mdd1 and qwerty613: its a medrash not kabala. and btw here is a clear gemarah bavli ????? ??,?: ???? ????? ???”? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????
we should’nt learn kabala?! where do you come from? ????? ?????? ???? ???: ?????????? ?????? ???? ?????? – ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????… ????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ????, ????? ??? ??? ???? – ????? ??? ?? ????? ??????, ??????? ????: ??? ??? ?????, ???? ??? ?? ???
In Raaya Mehemna, section of Nasso, (it is stated): “‘And they that are wise shall shine as the splendor of the firmament’ with this work of yours, which is the Book of Splendor (Sefer HaZohar)…Because in time to come Israel will taste of the Tree of Life, which is the book of the Zohar, and through which they will leave their exile with mercy. And through them shall be realized that ‘The L–rd alone will lead him, and there is no strange god with Him.’
??”? ?????”? ????? ?????? ??? ???????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? quoted in tanya igeres 26 see there.
the gra in his pirush in mishlei also writes about the need to learn kabala.
on the contrary you need to learn chassidus otherwise you may understand it litterly, and by not learning kabala, you dont solve the problem, as mentioned its in medrash, gemara, and even in chumash there are pesukim like “under (hashem’s) feet, if you dont learn chassidus, how you you understand it? litterly? that contradicts one of the 13 ikrim! oh so dont learn chumash either?!!!??Vilna Gaon on learning kabalah:
He that is able to understand secrets of the Torah and does not try to understand them will be judged harshly, may G?d have mercy. (Even Shlema 8:24)
The Redemption will only come about through learning Torah, and the essence of the Redemption depends upon learning Kabbalah. (Even Shlema 11:3)
All those who don’t understand the secret meaning [behind something], do not grasp even the simple meaning. (commentary on Proverbs 5:18)
The Evil Urge is unable to overcome all who occupy themselves in the hinting and secret [levels of Torah]. (Ibid.)
@83. still waiting for the answer to my question
To sechel83
“Why shouldn’t we learn Kabbala?” For many reasons. Edited But let’s not get personal. In the aftermath of the Shabbetai Tzvi debacle, an edict was established for Ashkenazic Jewry that only those who are forty, married, and fully versed in Nigleh can then take on esoteric Torah. Chabad violates this Psak so they are Chotim. And we’ve seen throughout our history the danger of Kabbalah in the wrong hands. It started with Yoshke, continued with Shabbetai Tzvi and now we have ignorant children in Crown Heights who consider themselves Mekubalim. There you have my answer. edited
To sechel
I’m impressed that you’re such a fan of the Gaon. edited. Yes the Gaon knew Kabbala, but that’s because he knew everything. But his focus was Nigleh so no he wouldn’t advise six year olds to close their Gemaras and study Arizal. The Gemara says that Torah can be a Sam Hachaim or a Sam Hamoves. When people learn Torah that’s not appropriate for them it’s a Sam Hamoves.he wouldn’t advise six year olds to close their Gemaras and study Arizal.
Factual correction for readers who may think that there’s truth in what Qwerty is writing. Let’s break this down:
“study Arizal”
Chabad yeshivos don’t teach kabbalah (Arizal, Zohar, etc.).
They do teach chassidus (the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov, Baal HaTanya, etc.) – much of which is based on kabbalistic teachings, but taught in a way that is meant to be more understood for the common folk (with a proper teacher and background).“six year olds”
The average Chabad yeshiva begins teaching chassidus to bochurim who are about 15 years old or older. Before that, they only learn Gemara, Mishnayos, Chumash, halacha, etc.“close their Gemaras”
The average Chabad yeshiva (15 years old and up) has about six hours a day of Gemara and three hours of chassidus (as well as halacha, Chitas/Rambam, sichos, etc.)To Menachem Shmei
Your point is well taken. I was simply addressing sechel who never tops touting Kabbalah as the answer to all questions. If Lubavichers supplement Gemara with Chassidus that’s great, but if everything is Kabbalah not so much. Btw the Rabbi I generall. Turn to when I need clarification in the Gemara is Rabbi Zajac Chabad of La Cienega who’s an i credible Talmid Chachsm and a wonderful person. As for my remark abput 6 year olds I was speaking Lav Davka to make a point.Sechel83, there are statements in Medroshim and Gemoros which are Kabbola-based.
Gemora in the second perek of Hagiga is very clear that Kabbola is to be studied only by people who meet a number of strict requeirements.
Those who understand the sources that you brought down literally are minim whose wine is yain nesech etc.
Menachem, it is enough Kabbola for people to stumble in as we see here and elsewhere among the the Chabad people.@Menachem Shmei,
I am not convinced that the Israeli flag is not for torah and mitzvos just like the tzvios hashem flag. There is kedushas haretz and alot of mitzvios that apply in EY. Now it is true that once upon a time it was used by rashim like Ben Gurion YMS to say we do not need to observe mitzvahs CV’s because we have the medina. And we intentionally only wnat things to be secular to the point of kidnapping immigrants and snipping their peyos off. However, that is no longer the case. We live in a post zionist world. The flag has no come to represnt a simple unity among jewish people. Furthermore, even if its not as “jewish” as a menora, at a time of epic tragedy like this and when it is exactly threatening Jews of Israel for river to sea …There is a justa time and oplace and you can’t just bring a defrence from a sicha said 60 years ago.
As a side note yes the reba z’l was human to and at times changed his opinion too. I know for a chosid that may be kefria but for us layman its the turth. it doesn’t degrade the person to say that. We know he went to college but was anti college too. And no i don’t buy that he went to college for chasdic purposes but would have never gone if not. Thats baloney. he went because that was the mood at the time. But as time evloved he shtigged like we should all be. He realized that engineering is not important in life and then told chasdim not to attend college. My point is things chnage as time elvolves and the same with the flag.To lostspark
Newsflash. You’re on planet earth. The moshol of Yaakov’s ladder is that the Tzaddik reaches the heavens. But only if his feet are planted on the ground i.e. he’s normal. Those who met Gedolim like Rav Moshe and Rav Yaakov come away most impressed by their normalcy.
Menachem isn’t Chassidus sourced from a higher level than Kabbalah? Yechidah vs Sod?
Discussed in ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???????
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=58874&st=&pgnum=268&hilite=@mdd. thats my point if you only learn medrash and gemara and chumash, you may understand it litterly (why not?) if you learn chassidus, its explained starting with tanya perek 2 and there is a clear maamer of the rebbe rashab – ????? ???? – printed in ???? ????, thats explains these maamarai chazal.
also not thinking about hashem may not couse you to view him in a tzuras haguf etc, but it also dosent cause you to love and fear him and know him (3 mitzvos temidios – see rambam hilchos yesodai hatorah)
@qwerty the gra came after shabsai tzvi, and wrote about the obligation to learn kabala. and everyone agrees you can learn kabala after 40. even those who said not to younger.@qwerty The Gemara says that Torah can be a Sam Hachaim or a Sam Hamoves. When people learn Torah that’s not appropriate for them it’s a Sam Hamoves.
interesting how you explain this gemarah. the arizal explained that without learning torah with love and fear of hashem which comes from learning kabalah or chassidus, and contemplating on the ideas then torah is sam hamaves, lo lishma. see ?????? ?? ?????
see mifarshim on chagigah. the mishnah also says not to darshen on arayos to 3 people. so dont learn anything basiclly. no chumash, mishnah on arayos, no gemarah – cuz youll bump into that gemarah in megillah, no medrash?? sounds like the yevonim!To sechel83
The problem with Chabad is not that you learn Kabbalah although it ‘s insanity that you encourage kids to do so. The problem is your attitude towards learning. Instead of looking for truth you cherry pick Chazal to prove that the Rebbe is Moshiach edited
To sechel83
You state that Arizal said that one must learn Chassidus or his Torah is a Sam Hamaves. Arizal preceded Chassidus by 200 by 200 years so he obviously never said that. I do agree that one must learn with Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas Torah and I do that when I learn Gemara. Just as important Torah must bring o e to truth. You guys brag that you make a Siyum every year on Rambam But you don’t accept his teachings.Rambam clearly states the criteria for Moshiach and the Rebbe hasn’t met any of the requirements. But you dismiss Rambam because of some speech the Rebbe gavevin 1951From what I understand it’s mutar at least according to ?????? to learn Zohar and its actually encouraged just ???? ??????? you have to be ???? for because he writes in a way that’s hard to understand and you could be ???? it. I heard a story that the ????? had ?????? ? why the ?????? explains the ?????? ????? ?????? with ????? from ?????? which could lead a person to think he understands Hashem with his mind and the ?????? told the ????? that he’s right and if he would live longer he would teach differently not ?? ??? ????. so because of that ?????? don’t learn ???? ?????? unless their ???? and are able ??????? ?????? ?????????.
SEichel, for crying out loud! Azahorah shamanu not to understand those statements literally. The Christians went down that path!
You can love and fear HKBH even without learning Kabbola. And it is better to loose out on a portion of a mitsva than to end being a min!!!To the group
I think we should understand why studying Chassidus and Kabbalah is so important to Chabad. I used to listen to Rabbi Butman when he was on the radio on Motzei Shabbosim. On numerous occasions, he said that when Moshiach comes there will be no more conventional Talmudic study, rather we’ll only learn the Kabbalistic interpretations of the Gemara. Since Lubavichers believe that we’re already in Yemos Hamoshiach they’re trying to replace Talmudic study with the study of Chassidus. Last week my son met a Lubavicher who told him, “Learning Torah without Chassidus is like ordering a steak meal and only getting served french fries.” edited
To Lostspark
“I still can’t wrap my mind around why you attend a Chabad shul.” It:s not a Chabad shul. It’s a shul whose Rabbis are Chabad. We get along because they don’t push their beliefs on me and I don’t challenge their beliefs either. That thisvis hard for you to understand is a strong indicator that you’re an in your face Lubavicher who demands that every Jew accepts the Rebbe. Not aall Lubavichers are like that.
Any chance of the mods starting a thread with all the stuff deleted from qwerty’s posts? edited
To 5783
If I undwrstood you correctly you said that the Arizal and Besht conversed. Arizal died about a 100 years before rhe Besht was born. So perhaps you need to do some fact checking.
To ARSo
There’s nothing earthshattering to what they delete. It’s just the mod’s view that a statement crosses the line. I don’t Chas V’shalom use inapproriate language.a few parts ????? ?’ ???? ????? ?? ??? ???????
??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??????, ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?’ ?????? ?????, ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????, ??? ??? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ??”?, ??”?, ?????? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ???’.????? ?? ??”? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??, ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????, ???”? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????, ???? ????? ??? ???? ?”? ?? ???? ??? ‘?? ?? ???? ???? ??????’. ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????, ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????, ???? ????? ?? ?”? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????.
??? ????? ??”? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???, ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ‘??? ??? ???? ??????’ ??? ???? ??? ???, ‘??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????’ ????? ????, ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ???????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????…
??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???, ?? ???? ?? ????? ????, ?? ??? ???? ??????, ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???
(i wrote kabala or chassidus, to love and fear hashem, you need to think about him not just halachos)
rambam hilchos yesodai hatorahperek 3
??? ????? ?????? ???–???? ?????? ?????? ????, ?????: “????? ?? ?’ ??????” (????? ? ?; ????? ?? ?), ?????: “?? ?’ ?????? ????” (????? ? ??; ????? ? ?). ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????, ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??, ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ???: “???? ???? ??????? ??? ??” (????? ?? ?).
and he goes on to talk about maase brashin and maase merkava perek 4
???? ??
???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??”? ???? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????.
when i was i child, no one told me to learn kabala, tanya baal peh thats all (extra curriculum – at home). we started learning chassidus and 12 very basic conceps of chassidus, which as know to anyone who learns chassidus, sometimes chassidus brings kabala to explain a point, and it explains ideas in kabala in a way that an average person can understand. and in derech mitzvosecha mitzvas tefillah there is a whole introduction, about how to understand the kabalistic way of talking about hashem, so no one makes a mistake)
@mdd ridiculous comment, basicly youre saying just do mitzvos for gen eden gehenom. take hashem out of the picture, cuz you may understand him wrong, that dosent make you a believer either, just because you never think of him lest you imagine him in some kind of form.Seichel!!! Becoming a min, a kofer is not serving HKBH!! You show what is wrong with the Chabad approach indeed!!
To sechel83
“I wrote kabala or chassidus”. Wrong you said thatArizal said that one who doesnt learn Chassidus or Kabbala his Torah is Sam Hamaves. When I called you out for being an inveterate liar you changed your story.
I understand why people want to get to the higher level quickly, but you may be underestimating prerequisites … people talk about age, knowing halocho, but look at Kiddushin 71: The forty-two-letter name of God may be transmitted only to one who is discreet, and humble, and stands at at least half his life, and does not get angry, and does not get drunk, and does not insist upon his right
Are you even at minimum level in these middos? Are you saying that your rebbeim figured out shortcuts to skip these? If yes, why are you so interested in taking these shortcuts instead of working on yourself? This is like running a marathon and getting a ride for a part of it.
@qwerty ok i made a mistake. the arizal talks about kabala. this is why we learn chassidus which includes (but not only) kabala – explains many concepts to even lower level neshamos – simple people.
besides its a clear rambam that the way to love and fear hashem is by thinking and contemplating about him. (just like you wont like anything (even in this world) before knowing what it is, basic concept no need to explain) this is not jumping to higher levels, the rambam hilchos tshuvah perek 10: ???? ?
?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???????? ??????? ???????? ?????.???? ?
??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???”? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????:
another clear halacha in sh”u hilchos tefillah siman 98:
?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??’ ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?”? ???? ??”? ???”? ???? ???? ?? ???????
??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ???????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????’
?????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ??????’ ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????
chabad and many other Chassidim (maybe non chassidim too – but in order to think about the greatness of hashem you need to first learn about it (one can see some greatness of hashem in the creation but that leads to a limited love and fear of hashem, chassidus and kabala teaches much more about the graeatness of hashem) are very careful in this halacha in shulchan aruch. and therefore learns chassidus – ?????? ??? – and causes not to desire pleasures of this world, (and can even bring a person to the level of nevuah see rambam hilchos yesodai hatorah, (btw about nevuah today, the rambam clearly writes in igeres timan ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????”? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????) for an hour or 2 before davening.
i was never tought hashems 42 letter name and i dont know anyone who was.chas vishalom chabad was not influenced by zionism at all.
To sechel83
Who ever said that they teach Hashem’s 42-letter name in Chabad Yeshivos?
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