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  • #2030785
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “If someone had a quick brush resulting in a positive PCR, his immune response may not have been large.”

    This is actually false. For any virus. Per actual doctors

    #2030795
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Agree that clinical evidence thusfar supports vaccination for those who have not yet had Covid both in terms of reducing risks of infection and lower risks of hospitalization/serious affects if you are infected. Studies on benefits for those already infected seem to suggest some benefits in terms of increasing resistance over time, although results are thusfar open to varying interpretation. From a practical perspective however, absent SCOTUS intervention on legality of mandates, being “fully vaccinated” including booster in some cases, may become a defacto requirement for most work and travel so “get over” your philosophical resistance if you want to engage in most forms of commercial activity and movement.

    #2030874

    Syag,
    you are right that immune response is not like medicines that are often proportional to amounts and body weight. That is, an even small amount of stimulus can generate a response. Still, I saw papers claiming that there is correlation. not a perfect comparison, but Moderna has more vaccine than Pfizer and stronger response and side effects. Maybe the difference is hard to discern due to many other factors, genetics for example.

    #2030893
    Health
    Participant

    UJM -“If you had Covid in the past, you do not need to vaccinate”

    That’s Absurd.
    Even if the amount of Covid that you had generated sufficient Antibodies, there will come a time when those Antibodies won’t protect you anymore!
    Then you will need a Vaccine.

    #2030880

    Gadol > Studies on benefits for those already infected seem to suggest some benefits

    I think it is clear that at least one vaccine is beneficial for anyone who is suitable to learn Kabbalah or does not spend their time building up their muscles. I suspect this covers all of us.

    I am not sure how to deal with the excessive requirements of “full vax” for those who were sick once or twice. Is this policy excessive or is it “lo plug” to make sure everyone gets something, or maybe policy makers are afraid of providing wrong incentives? Imagine if a certified sickness would let you get on a plane or into the stadium? Imagine how many idiots will actually go out of their way to get sick quickly. Virus parties …

    Maybe we should have such virus parties for remaining anti-vaxxers and natural immuners after new drugs are available: expose them in a controlled environment for 15 minutes instead of waiting until they meet their virus for 5 hours somewhere. If they had previous immunity, they would be protected, no problem. So, instead of weekly PCR tests – weekly 15 minutes in a room with aerosoled COVID.

    #2030913
    ujm
    Participant

    Gadol, as of now, even without SCOTUS, the courts have blocked Biden’s mandates for private businesses.

    #2030908
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    AAQ – I have no idea, actually, to what you are responding.

    You made a statement indicating that if you got sick from a small exposure (whatever that means)v you will have a small immune response. I answered that that is false. Regardless of your exposure, if you get sick, your body will respond. being a little sick does not mean a small amount of antibodies. It also does not mean you will only pass on a small virus to someone else. (again, whatever that means)

    So if you get sick somehow, your body will respond to the sickness, and whomever catches it from you will get their own response regardless of how yours presented.

    #2030912
    ujm
    Participant

    Health: Your argument then means people must keep taking booster shots indefinitely, forever.

    #2031162
    Health
    Participant

    ujm -“Health: Your argument then means people must keep taking booster shots indefinitely, forever.”

    That’s ridiculous.
    Obviously you never had any vaccinations.
    Most require BOOSTERS!
    It’s just how often you need them.

    #2032377
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Health
    Can you name any other vaccine that requires a booster less than a year after being fully vaccinated?

    #2032398
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Klugeryid,

    Influenza. Immunity can be as low as fifty percent with the annual shot. With the past decade there have been instances of a booster shot being recommended.

    But hopefully by next year, the covid vaccine will be a regular annual shot.

    Now I have a question. Why is this even a topic. This was discussed at length as the most likely scenario, before pesach of 2020. And things have rolled along pretty much as predicted. Why all the resistance to science happening according to what was predicted?

    #2032450

    klugeryid > any other vaccine that requires a booster less than a year
    n0 > Immunity can be as low as fifty percent with the annual shot.

    indeed, I think flu vaccine last for 6 months. The reason for annual shot is because flu is not circulating during summer. Possibly covid will adapt to a similar cycle. Note Southern sates had higher rates during summer, northern during winter – whenever people are more inside with closed windows.

    #2032467

    Klugeryid, also why does it bother you that immunity is for 6 months? his is what the virus is and what scientists were able to create and test in one year. Next, let’s complain why a day has only 24 hours…. You need to learn to live with a reality provided by Hashem. If you have ideas how to improve it, please do.

    #2032479

    Syag > whomever catches it from you will get their own response regardless of how yours presented.

    I agree that immune response is not directly proportional to the stimulus. Still, I’ve read a lot of articles about differences due to amount of exposure.

    Btw, anecdotally, I now know more people who had it twice than vaccine breakthrough cases.

    #2032483
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Doesn’t bother me how long it lasts
    Bothers me that it’s mandated.
    It has now been conclusively proven that people who are fully vaccinated can get covid.
    The cdc has stated that viral loads are basically the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated patients.
    It prevents serious illness (or it doesn’t but if it doesn’t it’s totally worthless so let’s assume it does)

    So someone please explain to me logically
    Why does anyone care if I choose not to take the shot?
    I can get sick and infect others just as much if I am fully vaccinated as if I am totally unvaccinated.

    From a public health angle the vaccine is completely worthless.
    As long as this question remains unanswered AND vaccine mandates remain, the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that there is something else going on here, that has more to do with government power, than health.
    That’s where I believe most of the pushback against the vaccine is coming from.

    #2032486

    kluger > viral loads are basically the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated patients.

    just the title of the paper is sufficient here:
    Lower Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 Viral Shedding Following Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination Among Healthcare Workers in Los Angeles, California
    Paul C Adamson November 2021,

    . The median cycle threshold (Ct) value was 20.1 (IQR, 16.9–25.1) for tests done prior to the first vaccine dose, .. 24.9 (IQR, 16.4–32.4) for tests done on or within 6 days after the second dose, and 30.4 (IQR, 20.8–34.1) for tests done 7 or more days following the second dose.

    #2032489

    Also, when we compare viral load of a sick person with and without vaccine, this is AFTER they are sick. Vaccinated people are at least 5x less likely to get sick across all age categories.

    #2032521
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Aaq
    Your first response, I have no idea what you said there.

    Your second response, in Israel in the last few weeks In the over 65 year old demographic, 90% of positive corona cases are in fully vaccinated individuals.
    It’s pure conjecture to say that without the vaccine more people would have been sick. I think it’s way more likely, and my own anecdotal experience bears this out, most people are not yet getting covid a second time. Most of the remaining population who have not yet gotten covid, are now vaccinated. A huge percent of the population has already had covid.
    Add this all up and you get
    Less overall cases of covid but a huge amount of current cases being fully vaccinated.
    Exactly what the statistics coming out of Israel are showing.
    The vaccine dose not stop spread.

    #2032691
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Kluger,

    Vaccines build immunity. Immunity will hamper the spread. It will take a lot of vaccines to completely stop the spread.

    #2032694
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I think we all realize that our own experiences carry very little weight on something that is circling the globe for the fifth time.

    #2032763

    Kluger, there are 2 parts here
    1) vaccinated people are less likely to get infected and sick. It was 15x less likely for the original virus and right after vaccination (Phase 3 trials Nov 2020). It is less for Delta and 6 months out, probably 5x less likely.

    2) even at this less likely rate, those who are infected are shedding less virus (this is what a just published paper above says) and thus are less likely to transmit.

    High cases among vaccinated is due to people “rewarding” themselves – I am vaccinated, reducing my risk by 5x, now I can go to Turkey, increasing my risk by 10x.

    #2032765

    > our own experiences carry very little weight o

    not always true. We read “average” numbers – for the world, country, state. You should also pay attention to your community and immediate environment. Your risk is much higher if people in your shul are coughing. Same goes for how many people are vaccinated, previously infected, etc.

    you do need to tie your observations with the bigger picture, of course.

    #2032802
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    The statistics we read, are not an experience. Understanding the data, requires some additional knowledge. I really do not get your point.

    #2032857

    I’m saying that statistics like politics are local. You are affected by statistics of your neighborhood, your community, your friends. This statistics is not published, but you can collect it from the anecdotes and personal experience. So, personal experience useful addition to the statistics you read.

    #2033009
    bored_teen 💕
    Participant

    As someone who isn’t a medical professional and isn’t going to pretend to be because just because I read a CNN/FOX article, I’m gonna sit this one out! 😊

    #2033106
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Aaq
    Don’t know where you are coming from
    I’m coming from a segment of an Israeli news show. Not exactly conspiracy theorists. Rather vaccine pushers.
    They said the opposite of everything you are saying.
    Statistically vaccinated people are getting it just as much as unvaccinated, the cdc says vaccinated covid patients have exactly the same viral load meaning they can spread it exactly as much as unvaccinated. They were talking about the 65 and over population in Israel. I doubt these are people gallivanting all over the world
    The vaccine is a hoax

    #2033126

    bored_teen> I’m gonna sit this one out!

    You seem to be the wisest teen in this generation. I think a lot of confusion now is due to availability of information and misinformation that we all are not equipped to process. During WW2, it was US radio v. Nazi radio. Now, we are being bombarded by numbers from all sides and each one makes their numbers to look better. I just read an excerpt from Scott Atlas where he brings very reasonable arguments showing that CDC director at some point said nonsense. All his numbers add up, and he even quotes a “Harvard epidemiology professor” who agrees with him. I looked up the professor and he is a complete political nutcase, writing about politicians and nothing about science. So, I understand that those who try to extract knowledge from listening to CNN with one ear and to Fox with another are totally confused. Just switch them off. Listening to two sides works only when you can master a subject. Here they all are fooling us.

    #2033125

    Kluger,
    this is complex and unclear stuff, so let’s try to be accurate:

    1) as I mentioned above, “vaccinated covid PATIENTS have exactly the same viral load” does not mean that vaccinated PEOPLE are the same risk to others: because vaccinated PEOPLE have less chance of becoming PATIENTS. All of this when you compare same demographics and same behaviors.

    2) you may be misunderstanding something or you are using secondary sources that misunderstood or misinformed you, or maybe someone used inaccurate language. Could you give me a reference that I can check out this data. “CDC says” – maybe author and date or newspaper article title.

    #2034016
    EJMRBro
    Participant

    Refuah shelaima OP. Did your doctor order 12 hours of MEGAPOASTING on YWN and Ivermectin ?

    #2034068
    Lostspark
    Participant

    Haha yes EJM, I was under full orders to stay on YWN all day until my symptoms subsided.

    בייה Everything is good now. I still have very little sense of smell and my sinuses are having problems but otherwise I and the family are doing well.

    #2034077
    EJMRBro
    Participant

    @lostspark I really do hope the best for you during these crazy times!

    #2034197
    philosopher
    Participant

    I was in Manhattan recently and on the doors of all the stores and buildings there were signs that said that even those who are fully vaccinated need to wear masks…lol, lol, lol, lol, lol! I cannot make enough lol’s here. It’s all about making powerful people richer! Vaccinations are supposed to VACCINATE people against the disease they are given for! But now people have actually changed the definition of “vaccine”. Now vaccine means “take the experimental, non-working, dangerous side effects causing vaccine because you are commanded to do so by those who have the power and shut up or you’ll lose your job, you won’t be able travel, and you can’t eat in restaurants!”

    #2034326
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Aaq
    Here is a quote
    I can’t post links but as it’s a direct quote, copy paste, if you’ll just search it you will get the origina

    Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to spread the virus for a shorter time: For prior variants, lower amounts of viral genetic material were found in samples taken from fully vaccinated people who had breakthrough infections than from unvaccinated people with COVID-19. For people infected with the Delta variant, similar amounts of viral genetic material have been found among both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like prior variants, the amount of viral genetic material may go down faster in fully vaccinated people when compared to unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people will likely spread the virus for less time than unvaccinated people.

    #2034330

    Kluger, thanks, this is legit CDC text. What it says is:
    IF infected, vaccinated and not produce similar viral load. I confirmed this understanding by reading the paper [1[ referred there. What you need to add to this information is that vaccinated get infected 10x less. This is described by the paper [2] referred nearby that estimated 87% (AZ), 92% Pfizer and 95% Moderna (that is 8x, 12x and 20x) reduction in symptomatic infections against Delta.

    So, taken together, someone who is vaccinated is 6 to 20x less likely to transmit to someone else.

    Caveats:
    1. We know now that effectiveness decreases with time
    2. These reduction numbers are for the same behavior. As people relax their behavior, their risk grows

    The question I have is whether how someone’s risk level depends on antibodies – are people with low antibodies the only ones vulnerable or everyone else has some low risk hat will be amplified by risky behavior.

    [1] Riemersma KA, Grogan BE, Kirta-Yarbo A, et alVaccinated and Unvaccinated Individuals Have Similar Viral Loads in Communities with a High Prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant. medRxiv. 2021 Jul 31;
    [2] Effectiveness of mRNA and ChAdOx1 COVID-19 vaccines against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe outcomes with variants of concern in Ontario

    #2034331

    philosopher, YWN front page reports that Rav Chaim supports vaccinated children. Do you have a different psak from someone else?

    #2034386
    user176
    Participant

    For one, the vaccine certainly does not save lives. It lessens the severity of the disease, which is a huge plus but not enough of a benefit to mandate vaccinations. (Who wants to be hospitalized?) Secondly it is obvious that natural antibodies protect a person from getting re-infected, but still, that protection wears off after about a year, depending on the individual. I know many people with antibodies who subjected themselves to sick coronavirus patients to help them, and of coarse they did not get re-infected, and I know people who were re-infected.

    #2034553
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Philosopher,

    You added an infinite lol with the rest of your post. To think that you did not even know that you had it in you. But then again…… that is to think. So please go on.

    #2034558
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    Your getting technical with whom is spreading how much disease. Frankly, that is none of our business. The real discussion is how much more immunity does the USA need to get to an endemic disease? This seems to be the question for the Mid East, South America, Europe, Canada, and The Caribbean. Why is nobody talking about this, or am I missing it in the general media?

    #2034566
    Health
    Participant

    User & AAQ -“It lessens the severity of the disease, which is a huge plus but not enough of a benefit to mandate vaccinations.”

    Now they have a new Variant.
    Just like Delta it will become the Worlds’ dominant Covid.
    So what will the World do?
    Vaccines have little to No effect.
    Oh I know, everyone Cower in their Houses.
    How about Okaying Ivermectin?!?
    Naw, it’s too Cheap and the Pharmaceutical companies can’t make Billions!

    #2034588
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear User,

    “The vaccine certainly does not save lives” and “it lessens the severity of the disease” seems like a contradiction. Or a mistype. As an aside, the partial immune response initiated by the vaccine, is the same molecular compound and just as natural as the immune response of an actual infection. Though it is believed to be less robust.

    It is not obvious that antibodies alone protect from reinfection. Previous exposures usually give the immune systems much more tools than just antibodies. Experiments conducted last year demonstrated the ability to repeatedly effect the body with covid. Admittedly, this was a lab experiment and is very difficult for it to occur through regular human interaction.

    But this discussion is for when this will become just another endemic disease. Until them it is all about slowing or stopping the thread.

    #2034767

    It will be endemic by definition when almost everyone has either a vaccine or a disease and thus will be less affected by the virus, same as other common colds. A new variant already emerged or may emerge, and biontech is committed to start shipping a new vaccine in 100 days if needed. Most developed countries were able to vaccinate 2 percent of population per day, so we are talking 4 month total cycle to vaccinate all except the obstinate, who will go through 2-3 diseases in the next couple of years

    #2034785
    philosopher
    Participant

    n0mesorah, lol to your response as well. Seems like you have nothing of substance to say thats proves that government officials actually believe that the non-working “vaccine” works. Lol, lol, lol, lol 😂

    #2035065
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    Thanks! It’s not so straightforward. The immunity has to hold against viral mutations.

    #2035113
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Philosopher,

    Thanks! Your conflating bureaucrats with government scientists. If your point is that all this public health stuff is beyond the capabilities of your average local politician, I wholeheartedly agree.

    #2035127

    n0 > immunity has to hold against viral mutations.

    you are right, but I am presuming that further infections by mutations will be increasingly milder and that is what “endemic” means. Also, there will be less mutations with more immunity. With the world now 55% vaccinated, the cup is half-full, not half-empty.

    #2035129

    N0, To your point, maybe mutations are the reason for recent second rounds of Covid? Possibly in some communities with low vaccinations and high number of kids in unprotected schools, virus is indeed endemic (circulating continuously) and hits again with mutations?

    I also have to admit that I was wrong thinking that people who are immune to logical arguments will get it when it hits close (R Avigdor Miller explains that we are to learn a lesson from a disaster somewhere in Far East, if not, it will hit again closer at home, and the worst is getting “educated” by being hit yourself). But I digress from the anecdotal data point: several close families I know had Covid recently. In one, an only unvaxed person spent several weeks sufffering, the rest not a big problem. In another – (reluctantly) vaxxed adults did not even know they had it until the kid was sick and got tested. Now that adult who had no symptoms said “What did that vaccine do? I got it anyway”. I can only attribute this to a “long covid fog”.

    #2035304
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Always,

    More or less that is true. But if the virus keeps multiplying at an unchecked pace, the chances are that the variants would be worse. More contagious and more lethal. Like the delta variant.

    #2035322
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Vaccines have little to No effect.

    We don’t know that yet.

    Oh I know, everyone Cower in their Houses.
    How about Okaying Ivermectin?!?
    Naw, it’s too Cheap and the Pharmaceutical companies can’t make Billions!

    Also, it doesn’t work.

    Other cheap repurposed drugs do work, so why are you pushing Ivermectin? If you have worms, by all means take Ivermectin, but otherwise it’s likely useless and potentially harmful.

    #2035324
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    More contagious and more lethal. Like the delta variant.

    Is Delta inherently more lethal, or only more lethal because it’s more contagious?

    #2035373
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    That is a good question. But more of a question of concept, than substance.

    Instead of contagious, I could have posted affects a larger portion of the population.

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