I have COVID

Agree that clinical evidence thusfar supports vaccination for those who have not yet had Covid both in terms of reducing risks of infection and lower risks of hospitalization/serious affects if you are infected. Studies on benefits for those already infected seem to suggest some benefits in terms of increasing resistance over time, although results are thusfar open to varying interpretation. From a practical perspective however, absent SCOTUS intervention on legality of mandates, being “fully vaccinated” including booster in some cases, may become a defacto requirement for most work and travel so “get over” your philosophical resistance if you want to engage in most forms of commercial activity and movement.

UJM -“If you had Covid in the past, you do not need to vaccinate”

That’s Absurd.
Even if the amount of Covid that you had generated sufficient Antibodies, there will come a time when those Antibodies won’t protect you anymore!
Then you will need a Vaccine.

Gadol, as of now, even without SCOTUS, the courts have blocked Biden’s mandates for private businesses.

Health: Your argument then means people must keep taking booster shots indefinitely, forever.

Health
Can you name any other vaccine that requires a booster less than a year after being fully vaccinated?

klugeryid > any other vaccine that requires a booster less than a year
n0 > Immunity can be as low as fifty percent with the annual shot.

indeed, I think flu vaccine last for 6 months. The reason for annual shot is because flu is not circulating during summer. Possibly covid will adapt to a similar cycle. Note Southern sates had higher rates during summer, northern during winter – whenever people are more inside with closed windows.

Syag > whomever catches it from you will get their own response regardless of how yours presented.

I agree that immune response is not directly proportional to the stimulus. Still, I’ve read a lot of articles about differences due to amount of exposure.

Btw, anecdotally, I now know more people who had it twice than vaccine breakthrough cases.

kluger > viral loads are basically the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated patients.

just the title of the paper is sufficient here:
Lower Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 Viral Shedding Following Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination Among Healthcare Workers in Los Angeles, California
Paul C Adamson November 2021,

. The median cycle threshold (Ct) value was 20.1 (IQR, 16.9–25.1) for tests done prior to the first vaccine dose, .. 24.9 (IQR, 16.4–32.4) for tests done on or within 6 days after the second dose, and 30.4 (IQR, 20.8–34.1) for tests done 7 or more days following the second dose.

Aaq
Your first response, I have no idea what you said there.

Your second response, in Israel in the last few weeks In the over 65 year old demographic, 90% of positive corona cases are in fully vaccinated individuals.
It’s pure conjecture to say that without the vaccine more people would have been sick. I think it’s way more likely, and my own anecdotal experience bears this out, most people are not yet getting covid a second time. Most of the remaining population who have not yet gotten covid, are now vaccinated. A huge percent of the population has already had covid.
Add this all up and you get
Less overall cases of covid but a huge amount of current cases being fully vaccinated.
Exactly what the statistics coming out of Israel are showing.
The vaccine dose not stop spread.

I think we all realize that our own experiences carry very little weight on something that is circling the globe for the fifth time.

> our own experiences carry very little weight o

not always true. We read “average” numbers – for the world, country, state. You should also pay attention to your community and immediate environment. Your risk is much higher if people in your shul are coughing. Same goes for how many people are vaccinated, previously infected, etc.

you do need to tie your observations with the bigger picture, of course.

I’m saying that statistics like politics are local. You are affected by statistics of your neighborhood, your community, your friends. This statistics is not published, but you can collect it from the anecdotes and personal experience. So, personal experience useful addition to the statistics you read.

Aaq
Don’t know where you are coming from
I’m coming from a segment of an Israeli news show. Not exactly conspiracy theorists. Rather vaccine pushers.
They said the opposite of everything you are saying.
Statistically vaccinated people are getting it just as much as unvaccinated, the cdc says vaccinated covid patients have exactly the same viral load meaning they can spread it exactly as much as unvaccinated. They were talking about the 65 and over population in Israel. I doubt these are people gallivanting all over the world
The vaccine is a hoax

Kluger,
this is complex and unclear stuff, so let’s try to be accurate:

1) as I mentioned above, “vaccinated covid PATIENTS have exactly the same viral load” does not mean that vaccinated PEOPLE are the same risk to others: because vaccinated PEOPLE have less chance of becoming PATIENTS. All of this when you compare same demographics and same behaviors.

2) you may be misunderstanding something or you are using secondary sources that misunderstood or misinformed you, or maybe someone used inaccurate language. Could you give me a reference that I can check out this data. “CDC says” – maybe author and date or newspaper article title.

I was in Manhattan recently and on the doors of all the stores and buildings there were signs that said that even those who are fully vaccinated need to wear masks…lol, lol, lol, lol, lol! I cannot make enough lol’s here. It’s all about making powerful people richer! Vaccinations are supposed to VACCINATE people against the disease they are given for! But now people have actually changed the definition of “vaccine”. Now vaccine means “take the experimental, non-working, dangerous side effects causing vaccine because you are commanded to do so by those who have the power and shut up or you’ll lose your job, you won’t be able travel, and you can’t eat in restaurants!”

Kluger, thanks, this is legit CDC text. What it says is:
IF infected, vaccinated and not produce similar viral load. I confirmed this understanding by reading the paper [1[ referred there. What you need to add to this information is that vaccinated get infected 10x less. This is described by the paper [2] referred nearby that estimated 87% (AZ), 92% Pfizer and 95% Moderna (that is 8x, 12x and 20x) reduction in symptomatic infections against Delta.

So, taken together, someone who is vaccinated is 6 to 20x less likely to transmit to someone else.

Caveats:
1. We know now that effectiveness decreases with time
2. These reduction numbers are for the same behavior. As people relax their behavior, their risk grows

The question I have is whether how someone’s risk level depends on antibodies – are people with low antibodies the only ones vulnerable or everyone else has some low risk hat will be amplified by risky behavior.

[1] Riemersma KA, Grogan BE, Kirta-Yarbo A, et alVaccinated and Unvaccinated Individuals Have Similar Viral Loads in Communities with a High Prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant. medRxiv. 2021 Jul 31;
[2] Effectiveness of mRNA and ChAdOx1 COVID-19 vaccines against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe outcomes with variants of concern in Ontario

For one, the vaccine certainly does not save lives. It lessens the severity of the disease, which is a huge plus but not enough of a benefit to mandate vaccinations. (Who wants to be hospitalized?) Secondly it is obvious that natural antibodies protect a person from getting re-infected, but still, that protection wears off after about a year, depending on the individual. I know many people with antibodies who subjected themselves to sick coronavirus patients to help them, and of coarse they did not get re-infected, and I know people who were re-infected.

Dear Always,

Your getting technical with whom is spreading how much disease. Frankly, that is none of our business. The real discussion is how much more immunity does the USA need to get to an endemic disease? This seems to be the question for the Mid East, South America, Europe, Canada, and The Caribbean. Why is nobody talking about this, or am I missing it in the general media?

Dear User,

“The vaccine certainly does not save lives” and “it lessens the severity of the disease” seems like a contradiction. Or a mistype. As an aside, the partial immune response initiated by the vaccine, is the same molecular compound and just as natural as the immune response of an actual infection. Though it is believed to be less robust.

It is not obvious that antibodies alone protect from reinfection. Previous exposures usually give the immune systems much more tools than just antibodies. Experiments conducted last year demonstrated the ability to repeatedly effect the body with covid. Admittedly, this was a lab experiment and is very difficult for it to occur through regular human interaction.

But this discussion is for when this will become just another endemic disease. Until them it is all about slowing or stopping the thread.

n0mesorah, lol to your response as well. Seems like you have nothing of substance to say thats proves that government officials actually believe that the non-working “vaccine” works. Lol, lol, lol, lol 😂

Dear Philosopher,

Thanks! Your conflating bureaucrats with government scientists. If your point is that all this public health stuff is beyond the capabilities of your average local politician, I wholeheartedly agree.

N0, To your point, maybe mutations are the reason for recent second rounds of Covid? Possibly in some communities with low vaccinations and high number of kids in unprotected schools, virus is indeed endemic (circulating continuously) and hits again with mutations?

I also have to admit that I was wrong thinking that people who are immune to logical arguments will get it when it hits close (R Avigdor Miller explains that we are to learn a lesson from a disaster somewhere in Far East, if not, it will hit again closer at home, and the worst is getting “educated” by being hit yourself). But I digress from the anecdotal data point: several close families I know had Covid recently. In one, an only unvaxed person spent several weeks sufffering, the rest not a big problem. In another – (reluctantly) vaxxed adults did not even know they had it until the kid was sick and got tested. Now that adult who had no symptoms said “What did that vaccine do? I got it anyway”. I can only attribute this to a “long covid fog”.

Vaccines have little to No effect.

We don’t know that yet.

Oh I know, everyone Cower in their Houses.
How about Okaying Ivermectin?!?
Naw, it’s too Cheap and the Pharmaceutical companies can’t make Billions!

Also, it doesn’t work.

Other cheap repurposed drugs do work, so why are you pushing Ivermectin? If you have worms, by all means take Ivermectin, but otherwise it’s likely useless and potentially harmful.

That is a good question. But more of a question of concept, than substance.

Instead of contagious, I could have posted affects a larger portion of the population.