I need advice on how to handle this please

Is it jsut the fact that they are working, or is there more than that…

I agree with your parents. Working and supporting yourself is a TERRIBLE thing…

I am sorry you are going through this, but Hashem should help you that this should be the least of your problems.

If it effects your shidduchim, then whoever will have a problem with it obviously isn’t your zivug. To let something so insignificant get in the way of going out with someone, you wouldnt deserve them anyway. Don’t be embaressed. The only person it harms is yourself. A Kollel life, as beautiful as it is, is not for everyone. Dont judge them, but try to respect them and love them anyway. If you find it in your heart not to judge them, them maybe you will find your zivug very easily, because you will also find someone who wont judge them. You cant expect something of someone else, if it isnt a part of you as well.

I wish you much hatzlacha.

When did working become an Aveira

As much as you dont want to hear this, your parents are wrong in discussing this with the rest of the family. Probably lots of lashon hara and rechilus and possibly some motsi shem ra for good measure going around the house right now. The only one who must agree with the decision of your brother in law, is your sister. Can we assume he make the decision in consultation with his Rebbe or Rav?

You should stay out of it. When your parents discuss this walk away, you are not obligated to listen. If your parents keep this up, your sister and brother in law will stop visiting altogether and will probably break off contact. Do your parents want that?

As for your shidduch, if your parents keep badmouthing your sister and brother in law it will eventually get around. the other side will probably start to say things about your parents. Then 3rd parties will get involved (to defend the honor of their chashuve friends). Word will get around, do you think anyone would want to touch your family with a ten foot pole?

Your parents have a right to disagree with his decision to go to work. As adults, they might want to try having a rational discussion with their daughter and son in law to understand what is behind his decision. They dont have to agree with it, just respect the fact that he made a decision that they disagree with.

There is surely more going on than just this.

Your parents have real problems. It seems their love for your sister (and maybe all their children) is not unconditional, as it should be. They love her only if she conforms to their standards, where her husband will sit and learn for a long time. Tell them to get over themselves.

Byanonymous- Wait a second! You’re father just started working???? How did he support your family while you were growing up?? Something doesn’t make sense here!

Byanonymous

It is truly a beautiful thing, for those who are able to swing it, to learn in kollel full-time. You mention that basically everyone you know lives this lifestyle. Well, believe it or not, they are not the majority. Most frum guys actually work. It does not make them less of a Ben Torah, less ehrich, less of a Yirei Shomayim.

Firstly, you didn’t mention who was supporting your sister and brother-in-law as well as all the rest of your siblings while they are in Kollel. It would seem that your brother-in-law wishes to be mekayem the mitzvah of being mepharnes his own family. And might feel that if your father-in-law had to go to work to support all the “learners” he did not want to be a burden to him.

In addition, just because he doesn’t learn full time, does not mean he doesn’t learn. It is wrong to judge them and speak about them in negative terms.

You are asking what you should do. Stop listening to Loshan Horan. Do NOT get involved in the exchange. “Forgive me Tatty but I refuse to listen to Loshon Horah about my sister and brother-in-law”. There are two sets of homes and values that this couple were raised in. It seems that your brother-in-law was raised to be a mentch!

And as far as this jeprodizing your shidduch prospects, don’t let that worry you. It may close a door or two, but a working B-I-L will open doors for you that you’d have never been redt to otherwise.

Ignore the hype. Choose substance and you’ll live happily ever after.

A major goal in life should be that learning Torah and living Torah principles should be one and the same. ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????; it’s not just the learning Torah that’s the essential point but actually living it.

The principles espoused by your dear parents are clearly NOT Torah-based. Hashem erases His own name for the sake of shalom (sotah); that’s how much He values Shalom. Shalom is even one of Hashem’s names. Bentching ends with shalom, shmone esrei has it towards the end, kaddish…Hashem’s “signature” is shalom.

Another MAJOR Torah principle not being adhered to is lashon hara, rechilus, etc. There are MANY aveiros for each time something is being said.

Another Torah principle is that the way we treat others, Hashem will treat us. E.g., if we are judgmental of others, Hashem will be judgmental of us on ??? ????. Elul is a perfect time to show ???? ??????.

Remember that Rabbi Akiva’s very learned talmidim died because ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???, they didn’t give each other the proper respect. The behavior ??? ??? ????? counted by Hashem MORE than the amount of Torah they had amassed. ??? ???- the idea is to LIVE the Torah that we are learning.

???? was a brilliant Torah scholar, but ?????? was his downfall (no pun intended).

Even though ??? ???? was correct and should have married Yaakov immediately, she preserved a family member’s honor and gave her the ??????, and it was because OF THIS that Hashem listened to her when requesting compassion for Hashem’s children by the churban/golus. It was ROCHEL’s act of compassion towards a family member that appeased Hashem, not the myriads of Torah scholars and tzaddikim. Something to think about.

The Chofetz Chayim wouldn’t have been a good enough son-in-law for your parents, as the CC had a day job as a storekeeper. Dovid Hamelech wouldn’t have been a good enough son-in-law either, as he was a blue-collar shepherd from a VERY young age.

When your parents learn to see the GOOD qualities of their SIL and FOCUS on those, that’s when Hashem will focus on your parents’ good qualities. It’s also when Hashem will reward them for preserving peace in the family and not harboring resentment in their hearts.

Your father may even wish to become his SIL’s chavrusa for an hour or so, imparting his love for Torah in a positive way.

This situation is quite easy for all of us to see on the outside, as we posters seem to be of the same mind.

Sometimes when one is in a situation, it is harder to see the clarity as someone on the outside.

I do not believe you should look away from the situation. Tell your parents the ideas expressed by the posters in a letter. You should strongly consider speaking to the family rav and present the issue. Nipping the problem in the bud is MUCH better than letting the problem fester until it becomes much more difficult to repair ???.

????? ??? and please let us know how it’s going, if you can.

“Theyr also constantly talking against them when they arent here (to me and my other siblings)”

During one of these conversations, why dont you tell them that you love them and when the time comes you want to marry someone that they will love, but this whole situation makes you scared. After all, there is only one of your father, you cant marry your father (i’m assuming your mother is happy with her choice).

When someone is venting their feelings, you have to be careful not to get judgemental or say something that’ll set them off and get defensive. otherwise what you say just comes across as attacks and not what you wanted to say.

I feel that expressing yourself is helpful. maybe this can help your parents understand that you are suffering from their negative comments.

Maybe it is best to stay quiet, depending on your age, and just walk away when the loshon horah starts. If they ask where you are going, you can say “I was raised neither to speak nor to listen to lotion horah!” That should make an impression on them.

im in kollel. ive never heard a more disturbing post. i dont mean the sheltered-keit shebo, thats fine. but such a reaction? not understandable in any case.

being very involved in litvish and chassidish shudduchim i can tell u that learning means very diffrent for both sides he said hes gonna learn and probably by his family and friends they all learned for a year or less maybe nobody asked him how long he intended to learn maybe the assummed he would learn forever and im also assuming that ur parents were not so involved in the shidduch cuz y would they take a chassish boy which i think is more the problem for them than anything else (not that there is wrong with litvish and chassidish marring)

Whoa. This is a tough one. It’s terribly painful to see one’s parents acting in a wrong way. And it’s even more painful when they’re doing it against your sister.

First of all, our home is also Torahdik. My mother’s working and my father is still in kollel. My brothers and brothers in law are all learning (although they’re still in their 20’s). And I fervently pray and hope that my husband will learn, too. BUT, I can’t put him into a cookie cutter. What if I simply can’t go out and work? What if he WANTS to work? Honestly, I don’t know how I’d react to that. It would be terribly difficult for me as my lifelong dream was to marry a ben Torah. Nevertheless, if he’s a good spouse who’s treating me well, I’d have to allow him to work. An aiyshes chayil is supposed to support her husband’s decisions (unless it’s against the Torah). Also, it’s the husband’s responsibility to bring parnassa. If the wife’s willing to take it upon herself – ashrecha. But it’s no mitzva to overwork and be on the verge of breaking down r”l while your husband’s learning. Perhaps this was the case with your sister.

I’d suggest that you have a talk with your parents (or one parent whichever one you feel close to). Tell them how torn you and your sister feel. Try pointing out that your brother in law’s really a nice guy who seemingly treats your sister well, and how happy your sister seems to be with him.

My aunt married a great talmid chacham. Who also happened to be an abuser. How’s that for a spouse? Learning isn’t EVERYTHING. Ask them if they’d rather have a SIL who learns but is abusive or one with fine middos who works. Also, talk or write to your sister. She probably feels so lost and alone. Her husband wants one thing while her family rejects her because she’s supporting him. Just tell her that you love her, regardless of anything. You don’t have to feel it – just say it. Save the relationship while there’s still a chance.

Hatzlacha rabba.

I was actually thinking of a response to this, then I realized the truth: this post is obviously a joke. Because there’s no way someone is actually worried about his/her chances of marriage due to the fact that a family member chose not to live their life off the system… This was obviously written just for reactions. Well done though, it worked.

I have a question. It’s a bit cynical, but very true.

If this was what G-d had in mind, that all people should study Torah at all times, living off the generosity of others, how then would anyone survive? If all people were participating in full-time Torah study, who then would be making money to support those who study Torah?? And please don’t say the women; women in the workforce is a relatively new phenomenon. Up until the industrial revolution (and really much longer), women stayed home with children and took care of the home. This was not demeaning, just that all livelihood came from working the fields and other forms of heavy physical labor. And even in today’s society, most families require both spouses to work in order to make ends meet.

This whole concept of Kollel is brand new and for some reason is completely overblown. Only the MOST studious, sincere, and capable people are really worthy of public funds to support them so that they can study Torah. There is no shame in working for an honest living. Rabbi Tarfon and Rabbi Yehuda Hanassi were two of the wealthiest people to ever live. Those are just the first two to come to mind, but there are COUNTLESS others who are from the greatest Jews in history and worked an honest living while still transforming themselves into Gedolei Hador. Learning in Kollel for the satisfaction of OTHERS is silly and ultimately counter-productive. What is wrong with being on the other side of the equation, working to make a living, be a righteous Jew, and help support those who are willing to make the sacrifice?

It’s better to be part of the solution than the problem.

Just saying.

Goodness, why assume it’s a joke? How painful this must be if it’s not. Is it worth that assumption?

I remember years ago visiting a former classmate of mine from seminary who lived in Israel. She became engaged to a working boy, and her younger sister, who was in elementary school (!!!) talked with me privately about her worries about how her sister’s choice would affect her in shidduchim (years later). It’s no joke. These are real concerns, not to be taken lightly.

What your sister is experiencing does put you in an awkward position. Such behavior on your parents part, can and will affect the choice you make with regard to a spouse. You’re fearful of standing up to them now. Why assume it will be any different later? What if you met an amazing learning boy, and only later found out he planned to work after a year or two? You might pass him up because of a traumatic memory of maltreatment of another. As tough as this might be, I would not suggest turning a blind eye. If you must, have your sister initiate the call to the rav to request his intervention.

If there was ever an issue that needed da’as Torah intervention, this is it.

Without commenting as to the genuineness of the original post, I did notice that the identical scenario was the plot of “In Black and White” by Dov Haller, which was serialized in Mishpacha Magazine a few years back. The brother-in-law, Yossi Tillstein, went off to work and triggered the same type of situation, including the parents not talking to the couple and the single daughter who was worried about shidduchim. The main point of this novel was that we should all be open-minded and non-judgemental. Interestingly, and totally un-ironically, Yossi, who is also a “nice guy” and a ba’al chessed, refers to his Mexican workers as “loathsome Mexicans.” Guess it’s only all about being non-judgemental towards other Jews.

Byanonymous I really wish peace and calm at home. So sorry to read this a no doubt you are torn up at seeing your family upset. Why anyone would disapprove of a new son in law supporting his wife whilst still remaining a good frum Jew is beyone me. At home I have brought my kids up with strong work ethic, alongside being shomer mitzvos. I realise different families do things differently, but when a child marries parents have to step back. It is hard for some, but needs to be done, takes a while for some people. Time is a great healer alongside understanding.

Working is quite normal among chassidim.

I’d like to tell your parents to grow up. If your sister is upset and feels she was tricked, that would be a separate question. But this should have nothing to do with the parents’ wants.

look what the world has come to??!!?! this is a mighty chillel hashem!!