August 12, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #799108
I live in Flatbush. Last Shabbos I was in Boro Park. Many people (shtreimeled and not) greeted me with “Good Shabbos” many of them were Makdim while others returned my greeting. TIMES ARE CHANGING FOR THE BETTER!
;August 12, 2011 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #799109
I don’t believe it!August 12, 2011 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #799110
Mayan Dvash: I agree, all we can do is make sure the trend continues.August 12, 2011 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #799111
I think people forget that “Derech Eretz Kadmah La’Torah”. I hate when people do it.
And just for the record the issur of Chillul Hashem is greater by Jews so when I see a whole many bunch of one type of Jews doing stuff like this and I think badly of them and don’t wanna be like them – they are doing a greater Chillul Hashem then if a non-Jew is like oh, look at those Jews. So just be aware that even if its only Jews around, it’s still something bad.
(And I know there are rotten apples and all that. I’m just generalizing. Like when people say New Yorkers….obviously there are those who aren’t like that but…)August 12, 2011 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #799112
Maybe I am pushier than most of you out there, however I would tell the ice cream guy to put it back or the father whose kids dropped the car to tell his son to clean up. We tell people not to have tvs, internet, types of cell phone, to have no slits, etc.. WE CAN TELL PEOPLE TO BE A MENTCH AND MAKE A KIDDUSH HASHEM AS WELL!!!!August 12, 2011 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #799113
Thank you for bringing this up; it is a very important issue that we absolutely must work on. Remember, there is no kaporah for Chillul Hashem…
“I beleive Rabbi Hillel said it best…”What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this–go and study it!”….. “
Sorry for being nitpicky, but Hillel was actually not a Rabbi. Just thought I’d point it out.
“Most people are not open to being told that they did something wrong and I can’t go over to every person and “straighten them out.”
First of all, there is chiyuv of hochaich tocheach es amisecha even in a case where you are not sure the person will listen to you (as I have pointed out numerous times).
Secondly, even if the person does not listen to you, any observers will be shown that we’re not all lazy slobs, and that some of us do care about those around us.
“but remember as a whole we are a group of good people who make mistakes. i feel like there is a lot of “jews” bashing here lately.”
“yes there is a lot of Jew bashing in the Jewish world in general, something which is close to non-existent in other cultures. we have become a nation with an inferiority complex. generally the less religious the more Jew bashing.”
You guys are right; nothing productive comes from bashing frum Jews just for the sake of bashing frum Jews (which is all too often the case). However, I don’t think that’s the case here. WIY was not doing this for the sake of bashing; he was pointing out a very real problem so that the members of the CR would be aware of it and try to stop it. He was giving out some constructive criticism, not just negative bashing.
“I live out of town and I have to say that when I am in an “in-town” community, the things mentioned above drive me crazy. When in a restaurant out of town and I take my tray and put my stuff in the garbage, people look at me like I feel off the earth!!!”
I think I live pretty in-town (Monsey), and not only do I clean up after myself in restaurants all the time, but I would say that it is the norm to do so here.
“we need to recognize that the only individual we can control is ourselves.”
I simply don’t think that’s true. We can and should influence others to act appropriately as well. Kol yisroel areivim zeh la’zeh, we are all responsible for each other.
“Moreover, the most effective way we can change others is to first change ourselves and serve as an inspiration for others.”
That is definitely one effective way to change others, but far from the only way.
“I believe it’s said by the saintly Chofetz Chaim ZTL that as a young man he wanted to change the world, then resigned himself to only changing Poland, then Radin, and finally only himself. Yet, in perfecting himself, he revolutionized Radin, Poland, and the world.”
“when we Chas v’Shalom see one of our own fall, we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and think maybe on their madrega, this action simply wasn’t one of bechira (for more on this refer to Michtav M’Eliyahu – R’ Dessler).”
Agreed. However, we must try to raise our collective bechira-point in regard to this particular issue.
“There’s a story I read of a BT who years before returning to Yiddishkeit witnessed a few Torah Jews walking together on Shabbos. He how happy, fulfilled, and at peace they were. That small insight into what a frum life should be was enough inspiration for this man to change his own life and come back.”
I would assume that there are far, far more BT stories that result from active kiruv. The bottom line is that while leading by example is one way of influencing others, actively influencing others is far more effective.August 12, 2011 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #799114
I usually think of things to say after the fact, but maybe you could have said “omgosh, did you know that’s a fridge, not a freezer? Maybe you didn’t realize…”
If you get the Mars look, “It’s going to melt in there.”
It’s not a judgment, it’s just a statement of fact.August 12, 2011 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #799115
WIY: I agree with your rant completely. As it had been pointed out many times in the CR, to the gentiles (Yes, Stamper, they are gentiles – not “a goy is a goy” – one of them may save your life one day)a Jew is a Jew. Frum Jew are recognizable by their apparel in the same way the Amish and Indians are. Because they are highly recognizable as Jews, they should go out of their way
to be polite and improve the image they project (mannerwise) when they are out in public. I know that if I saw the “ice crean” incident, I would have said something. I use a handicapped parking pass and when I see people in handicapped spots without passes, I speak to them and have even left notes on their cars, so for me to speak to someone about ruining an unsold product, would not be a stretch.August 13, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #799116
This thread makes me sad. I hate to have to focus on chestoinois. So instead of talking about where it apears more Nd in which circles, everyone just try To take this to heart nd if Ur someone who does that stop it! Nd enforce it with Ur children.:) Nd u never know who will set what u did it can make the biggest kiddush Hashem, most non Jews when they take something off the shelves they don’t go to put it bck, but we are a nation raised above everyone else. Verrumantanu mekol haleshoins. A non Jew can see u do that Nd say wow Jews are amazing! Also for a Jew to see they might b inspired to act in the same way. We can take this thread to a whole new level.!!!:)
From the ****RULES OF THE YWN COFFEE ROOM – PLEASE READ**** thread:
Please try to post in a language somewhat resembling English. Visit spellcheck.net if you need help. Mozilla Firefox browser also offers a spellcheck option. If your comment is not written in normal English, it will not be approved.
Note to the mods: When are we going to start enforcing that rule?August 14, 2011 2:28 am at 2:28 am #799117
I don’t understand ur problem haifagirl is it bc Nd (bt it probably is and, and the a is next to shiftAugust 14, 2011 2:42 am at 2:42 am #799118
i am considerate whether i am in the city or in the country. people need to follow that rule. being on vacation from work and school is one thing. being on vacation from midos is another. there should be no vacation from having good midos.August 14, 2011 2:49 am at 2:49 am #799119
I know that there are plenty of “in-towners” who are mentchen and that there are out-of-towners that aren’t – its just one of those generalizations that don’t apply to everyone! I think that this is something that we should all be more aware of for ourselves, and that we should teach our children, campers, students, siblings….and the rest of the world if we are in that position. Lets all be polite and well mannered individuals, creating that kind of community and truely be a “light onto the nations”!August 14, 2011 4:27 am at 4:27 am #799120
This topic belongs on page 1 !!! (Bump)August 14, 2011 4:32 am at 4:32 am #799121
I don’t understand ur problem haifagirl is it bc Nd (bt it probably is and, and the a is next to shift
There is so much more than just “Nd.” Try proofreading.August 14, 2011 6:01 am at 6:01 am #799122
What does Nd mean?
And I couldn’t even read that comment. It’s too much work to parse a word I don’t recognize as misspelled English, transliterated Hebrew, misspelled transliterated Hebrew, transliterated Yiddish, or misspelled transliterated Yiddish.August 14, 2011 6:02 am at 6:02 am #799123
… and yes, I realize the alef beis doesn’t transliterate exactly, but there are still conventions that can be followed…August 14, 2011 11:52 am at 11:52 am #799125
Several years ago my girlfriend (who is blonde and speaks with an English accent) worked in the ladies wear department of a large department store. There were 2 non-frum Jewish women who were very well known there as they shopped there several times a week. They always bought a lot of items and never tried them on, then returned them several days later. They always would pull out the bottom item from a stack of folded garments, which meant the staff had a lot of extra work just straightening out the neatly folded items. One day, these women were looking at fancy sweaters and had unfolded nearly the entire display. My friend overheard part of their conversation where one said to the other “why don’t you ask the saleslady?” The other replied ” Vos vais zee? Zee is a shtick fleish mit eigen.” Absolutely furious, my friend went up to them and very sweetly said “Is there something I can help you with? Are you perhaps looking for something for a special simcha like a Bar Mitzvah?” Both of these women turned bright red and began hemming and hawing and quickly left the department. PS: they weren’t seen in that department for several months. So, we also must be very careful about what we say because you never know who can hear you.August 14, 2011 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #799126
minyan gal: You seem to know Yiddish a bit. Are you fluent?August 14, 2011 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #799127
Stamper, I am not fluent. I taught myself to understand because my parents spoke it, only when they didn’t want us to understand what they were saying. I have picked up a bit of conversational Yiddish through the years. I can read it very slowly because I find it difficult to read Hebrew or Yiddish without “pintelach”. My parents sent me to Hebrew day school (Talmud Torah) as opposed to the, then popular, Yiddish day school (I.L.Peretz Folkschul).August 14, 2011 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #799128
ha good story. a freind of mine’s mother and aunt were on the bus and there was an extraordinarilly large woman sitting near them. one turned to the other and said in hebrew- tistaklee- hee shmeina k’moh parah. upon which the lady turned to them pointedly and said…” Moooo”.August 14, 2011 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #799129
It is sad that truly refined and yashar people are a rare. I heard one fellow quote a rav about people with rotten manners that balk (or worse) at constructive criticism are the neshamos of the Erev Rav that are still amoung us. I countered that that is dependent on the concept of gilgul, and that this concept is not that well accepted as truth, or even as of Torah origin. I got back a a long string of nonsense and conjecture. Also sad that intellectual discourse is also not too common.August 17, 2011 2:41 am at 2:41 am #799130
always runs with scissors fastParticipant
Another example of bad middos I cannot stand, is say for example at our girl’s school at a party, or carnival or a play performance there’ll be when 3 dozen winter coats are piled one ontop of the other on a table and one drops off to the floor, people will walk around it, and sometimes on it, or ignore it. I just bend down and pick it up because its not nice. WOuld you like ppl stepping on your belongings?August 17, 2011 2:47 am at 2:47 am #799131
am yisrael chaiParticipant
“…there is chiyuv of hochaich tocheach es amisecha even in a case where you are not sure the person will listen to you”
It must be done only with ahavas chinam and without anger, and that may make giving tochacha more challenging.August 17, 2011 3:07 am at 3:07 am #799132
i think this is a Big issue and we should work on ourselves..
but i think we should really be dan lekaph zechut,
because we don’t know what could be happening in their lives at the moment,
maybe there was an emergency and someone had to run out without putting an item in the exact spot in the store,
or maybe they REally didnt realize it was a refrigerator,
or maybe the guy was eating sm in his car and it was burning hot and he quickly, without thinking, threw it out the window.. ANYTHING couldve happened.August 17, 2011 3:31 am at 3:31 am #799133
Theres a difference between being Dan Lekaf Zechus and living in a pretend world. Unfortunately when you see the same types of things again and again and again you start to see a pattern.
Maybe some people do what they want because they figure everyone will be Dan them Lkaf Zechus?August 17, 2011 3:38 am at 3:38 am #799134
“It must be done only with ahavas chinam and without anger”
True; but it still must be done.August 18, 2011 2:45 am at 2:45 am #799135
WIY- but you can’t rely on people being dan lekaf zechut, it’s like marit ayin no? and shouldn’t we alwaysss judge them that they are doing the Right thing, and NOt thinking every1 will be dan lkaf zechut?August 18, 2011 2:49 am at 2:49 am #799136
we played a game in school that someone reads a scenario and you -off the top of ur head- have to think of a way to be dan lekaf zechut them.. ppl thought of really crazy ones, but we really should in real life because ANYTHING couldve happened, its really not pretend, and whenever i think of this game it always helps me.
Also that story about when his employer could not pay him or sm, and he kept being dan lkaf zechut, and all the things that he thought really did happen ,that helps me too, anyone can give me more details?
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