I realized my mistake, did you realize yours?

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  • #1808555

    knaidlach
    Participant

    I realized recently that for years i was pronouncing a word in davening wrong. its in Kabolas Shabbos (Tehilim 99,6).משה ואהרן בכהניו ושמואל בקראי שמו קראים אל ה’ והוא יענם. i use to pronounce they word קראים with a Sheva under the Raish and a Chirik under the Alef – KOIR’IM. but the correct way is KOI’RIM, the Alef is not pronounced and the Raish has a chirik.
    Did you ever catch yourself pronouncing a word wrong for years?

    #1808604

    Joseph
    Participant

    You realize that years of the tefilos in question were never made, as you were telling Hashem the wrong thing.

    #1808648

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The one that comes to mind discussed previously in CR is yidmu kooven meaning similar, which should be yid’mu meaning silent.

    #1808653

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You realize that years of the tefilos in question were never made, as you were telling Hashem the wrong thing.

    What exactly does it mean to not be yotzei Kabbolas Shabbos?

    #1808655

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, you are wrong. One this it says ודגלו עלי אהבה – על תקרא ודגלו אלא ודלוגו meaning that leaving out my mistake is accepted with love.

    #1808654

    knaidlach
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer. correction: it should be YI’DEMU -silent. YID’MU means similar.

    Joseph. I hope by saying it correct from now on i will elevate all the past tefilos. similar to Teshuva transforming the Zdonos to zechuyos, for sure here being shgogos.

    #1808668

    catch yourself
    Participant

    When I was in twelfth grade, I realized one day that I had been pronouncing the word שמו ( in the שיר של יום ליום רביעי) as “Shemo”, when the word is actually “Samo”.
    Also it was many years before I properly understood the importance of two “subtle” points of Dikduk:
    1. The difference between Sheva Na and Sheva Nach, and
    2. The difference between Mil’eil and Mil’ra
    each of which dramatically changes the meaning of many words.

    @joseph,
    What a ridiculous thing to say. Fortunately, you are as wrong as you are inconsiderate. I have actually discussed this with leading Poskim, and their unanimous consensus has been that every good faith attempt at Tefila is a fulfillment of the Mitzvah/Chiyuv, and is accepted, regardless of mispronunciations.

    I’m not sure the same is true of the Tefilos of one who violates ולא תונו איש את עמיתו.

    #1808691

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    knaidlach – thanks, that is what I meant.

    #1808698

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I heard in the name of one of the Rebbes maybe the Besht that Hashem enjoys our tefilos like a bird chirping.

    #1808730

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Reb Elizezer: Thats 100 percent correct. Likewise, when that bird is a vulture and consistently screeches out words of disparagement of other yidden with a different hashkafah, an occaional “chirp” when davening, cannot erase the more lasting sounds of the screeching.

    #1808747

    Benephraim
    Participant

    ok you fell nebach by korim.

    btw who in your mind does korim refer to?

    #1808749

    Benephraim
    Participant

    also when you say the braisa of the שלוש עשרה מדות….who do you attribute it to?

    #1808873

    knaidlach
    Participant

    benephraim
    KORIM refers to Moshe Aharon and Shmuel.
    about שלוש עשרה מדות not sure what your question is. רבי ישמעא-ל is saying it and its found in the beginning of תורת כוהנים.

    #1808878

    Benephraim
    Participant

    Dear Kn. is your k silent like in English.

    anyway as far as רבי ישמעאל. do you put the צירה. under the ע or the א ? ) same issue as קוראים I think.

    also you may be right but the מפרשים I saw only acknowledge 2 as קוראים. please check your פשוטים.

    anyway I enjoy your פלפול

    #1808885

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Joseph do you really think that HKB”H really NEEDS our words, correct or not? No way. We are the ones who NEED to say the words. The good faith effort is what develops the connection, which is the whole purpose of tefillah. Now that he realized his mistake, paying attention and fixing it will only enhance the relationship even more, causing all previous errors in the tefillah to be fixed retroactively.

    #1808907

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a nice pshat from Rebbi Yonathan Eibshutz that, I heard, he said at his bar mitzva. He had two questions, Rebbi Yishmoel Omer, the name Yishmoel and that why it does not say Omar Rebbi Yishmoel as there is no argument on it? We know that Yishmoel did teshuva because he allowed at Avraham’s burial to precede Yitzchok, but the question is, that the Torah is not concerned with the order in the pasuk? If that is case then you cannot darshen a kelal uprat as the in Pesochim questuons, so in the same pasuk order matters and we can darshen a kelal uprat and Rebbi Yishmoel was named properly. Therefkre, from his name he was able to deduce to darshen a kelal uprat.

    #1808983

    Joseph
    Participant

    Nechomo: Then why be careful altogether. If you say the wrong words in Tefila all your life it’s no biggie according to your pshat.

    #1808961

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    I used to say Ki Gaz Chish venaufa. But it’s Vanaufa. Also used to say Hodu Al Eretz veshamayim and it’s Hodo. Also used to Zaharei Chama and it’s Zahorei. I’m sure there’s more.

    #1808946

    knaidlach
    Participant

    nechomah
    yes and no.
    of course tefila is an avoda shebelev etc. but it is expressed in the words חז”ל were mesaken to say. and just thinking about the idea of tefila without saying the words you are not fulfilling the mitzva of tefila. and whatever Chazal tell us to do is RATSON HASHEM, HASHEM wants us to say these words and to say them correctly. at the same time yes you are right if someone is saying the words and trying to connect to Hashem his tefila is still worth much even if some words were not pronounced correctly according to dikduk, because of his good intentions.
    Reb Levi Yitzchak Barditchever was melamed zechus on those who are davening in a way that the noise coming out of their mouths is a noise of mumbling etc. He said that a mother understands what her child wants even when her child is mumbling, so too Hashem understands everyone’s davening. but obviously as i said this is a limud zchus, but one should make an effort to pronounce the words properly.

    #1808947

    knaidlach
    Participant

    benephraim
    for sure you have to pronounce the K. whats the הוה אמינא not to?
    ‘I ENJOY YOUR פךפול’. so say a קדיש דרבנן.

    #1808984

    Joseph
    Participant

    Everyone learned as a child that the Seforim Hakedoshim say that any mispronounced word in Tefila causes a deformed malach to be created that testifies against you acher meah v’esrim shana. Whereas correctly said Tefilos results in good malachim created that testify on your behalf.

    #1809044

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chafetz Chaim says that we are adorning the crown of Hashem with precious stones with our tefilla and be careful not to be fake.

    #1809041

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I learned that you get malochim from mitzvos but I never learned from tefilos. Yaakov Avinu sent malochim infront of him created from mitzvos.

    #1809053

    Phil
    Participant

    knaidlach,

    You realized your mistake and corrected it, which is all that is wanted from us.

    How sad that the nasty, resident troll, so concerned about “deformed malachim” doesn’t consider the myriads of heavenly accusers he creates every time he hurts another Jew. Before he knows it, he’ll have to face every one of them and it won’t be pretty.

    #1809075

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    Actually, Reb Eliezer and Knaidlach, just saying yidemu with a sheva na doesn’t help. Just changing the type of sheva does not change the meaning.

    The main point that actually changes the meaning from the incorrect “being similar to” to the correct “being silent” is the dagesh in the dalet, as this is to represent the missing nun from the root “nadam”. This means that you have to pronounce the dalet as double length – “yiddemu”.

    Whlie we’re on the subject, the mishna berura at the beginning of siman 62 paskens that if you miss out a letter of keriyas shema, you are not yotzei the mitzvah. This is unfortunately much more common than many people think. One place many people slip up is where there is a “hei” in the middle of a word. For example the words “vihyeesem” and “lihyos” at the end of the shema. The “hei”‘s have a sheva nach and must be pronounced with an aspiration (breathing out, like a “mapik hei” at the and of a word). Many people say “viyeesem” and “liyos”, and they are not yotzei according to the mishna berura since they missed out the hei.

    #1809104

    chash
    Participant

    This is something i’ve heard too, that if you mispronounce a word the “tefilos arent niskabel”, is there a makor for this? Specifically a word that has no significant structural change? and therefore its intent can still be surmised?

    #1809106

    chash
    Participant

    Also, all the vigilantes, take a chill. It is good to defend someone who is being attacked but lets be clear, saying “all your tefillos werent niskabel” as was said here is not intended to be an attack, so no reason to go crazy on him. You may reprimand him if you disagree and scold the insensitivity . But he was not trying to hurt anyone. Dont become the abuser on your quest to defend.

    #1809109

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Chash – those are some pretty tall assumptions to make about someone you’ve never met. Especially for a newcomer

    #1809074

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Joe – Of course you are supposed to try to correct it, if you realize your mistake, but it is not in order to TELL something to HKB”H. But if you are sincerely trying to connect and somehow the word is a difficult one for your lips and tongue and teeth to pronounce exactly, I don’t believe you will be punished for it. I think the seforim hakedoshim that you are referring to are speaking to the people who are on the level to say these words without difficulty and are nonetheless not pronouncing the proper words.

    Are you of the opinion that a English-speaking (or whatever other language) BT should never attempt to daven or bentsch in loshon hakodesh because he might mispronounce words?

    #1809076

    Everyone learned as a child that the Seforim Hakedoshim say that any mispronounced word in Tefila causes a deformed malach to be created that testifies against you acher meah v’esrim shana.

    “Everyone” does not include me.

    #1809184

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Syag… Please allow me this once…. I think just a casual reading of the post make it abundantly clear he was only pulling the OP’s leg. Albeit his modus operandi… In my opinion it was surely in jest.. too appealing to let it go by..

    #1809232

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Froggie- i respect your opinion but don’t see any jest here, nor any deviation from the usual damning to hell. Not even sure how you could read it differently.

    #1809340

    knaidlach
    Participant

    ChadGadya.
    thanks for the clarification.

    #1809347

    knaidlach
    Participant

    I also heard about malachim being created from the words of davening, and the quality of the malach depends on the correctness of the word. but its not a contradiction to what others have mentioned that the tefila is accepted regardless ( not sure about missing a letter in krias shma). i have sources for both, hopefully with time i will post.
    The explanation is, there is a difference if the mistake occurred as a result of negligence; being lazy to put in the effort to learn how to read proper, or the mistake occurred as a result of human error although the proper effort was put in, or someone that had started to learn how to read later in life – by no fault of his own – and is in the process of improving his reading.
    To a child who we wanto encourage to put in the effort necessary to learn how to read properly, we say how each word creates a malach and the type of malach depends on how he pronounces the word. at the same time someone who did put in the proper effort to read and when davening with proper concentration trying to read each word proper, but by mistake pronounces a word incorrectly, his tefila is accepted.
    as i said, hopefully i will post sources for both sides.

    #1809367

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Syag… It’s my fault… I got up in the morning in a good mood… trying to see the good, the brighter side in everything.
    See? Here (center of the world, “YiddishKite”,aka BP) is’t a bright, glorious rainy day today!!!

    #1809366

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If we daven betzibur, Hashem accepts the tefila even it is improper, but beyochid the malochim accept it only if they understand it, as aramaic is not said beyochid because the malochim don’t care to understand it.

    #1809376

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When it comes to tefila, an expressiion of the heart, we say, רחמנא לבא בעי the heart is the most important. There is a story where a peasant came to shul, who did not know how to daven, decided to whistle. It was said that he opened up the heavens with this whistle because it came from the heart.

    #1809503

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    knaidlach, it says איזהו עבודה שבלב הוה אומר זו תפילה.

    #1809553

    chash
    Participant

    @Syag
    I am not making assumptions about the person. I am reading the post. In his post i see no attack. Do you?

    #1811536

    knaidlach
    Participant

    Little frogging,
    the last day you posted on this thread you have woken up in a good mood. in what mood did you wake up today? (just asking)

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