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i was pleased at the time but now im not so sure. i feel as though i could have done more and i missed an excellent opportunity.
i was walking in bryant park yesterday trying to find the NaNoWriMo meeting (for those of you who dont know what that is…google is your friend) and i was just circling around for like 45 minutes trying to find the place of the meeting. so i kept walking past this lubavitcher kid who was trying to convince a young well dressed executive to shake lulav and esrog. needless to say he was failing miserably. so as i walk past like the tenth time, the guy yells out to me “hey, what kind of jew are you?”
not in a sarcastic tone, he was just interested in a different perspective i suppose. so i had nothing better to do so i walked over and asked him what he wanted.
HIM: this kid over here has been trying to get me to shake these plants for 45 minutes, what do you think?
ME: so why dont you?
HIM: because i believe that religion is completely manmade (said with bias against)
ME: indulge him
HIM: i dont practice religion because i dont believe it is valid (i had heard them arguing about israel so i knew he was biased)
ME: do you believe in god or some kind of higher power?
HIM: yes i believe in some kind of supreme energy that binds us together
ME: so you believe in a higher entity
HIM: yes
ME: have you ever heard of Blaise Pascal?
HIM: the mathematician? pascal’s triangle?
ME: well, he was also something of a philosopher. pascal wagered that supposing there is a god, whether you know it or not, conduct yourself as though there is a god and an afterlife so that if there is you wont go to hell if you die and it exists. now obviously im not trying to scare you into religion having only met you a minute ago, but id wager that suppose youre wrong and this kid is right, why not just shake his plants?
HIM: its not a doubt for me, i know that religion is manmade.
ME: how does your faith manifest?
HIM: pardon?
ME: well, everyone has a different manifestation of their belief and faith in god or whichever deity or entity they believe in. jews practice judaism because of how they perceive god. christians practice christianity because of how they perceive god. hindus practive hinduism. everyone who perceives god or some higher entity has some form of manifestation as far as their daily lives are concerned. whats yours?
HIM: well i meditate a lot and i think about how this energy wants us to be better people and bring us closer together so i try to be a good person and help other people so i can make the world a better place.
ME: so your purpose in life is to help others, correct?
HIM: yes
ME: and you believe that religion is all arbitrary and manmade, correct?
HIM: yes
ME: so if its all arbitrary anyway, from either perspective you should shake this kids plants. if religion is all arbitrary anyway, then first of all we bay have just arbitrarily gotten it right and you should do what he wants. if your arbitrary choice was right then you would make his day if you shake his plants, isnt that what your beliefs tell you? (so he knows hes cornered)
HIM: well, i wouldnt actually mean it so why bother doing it?
ME: well, as far as were concerned you would still get the reward for doing it, and as far as youre concerned you just made this young man’s day. he has been out here all day asking people to shake these plants, and you would really make him happy if you did this for him.
HIM: (smiling) ok then! you talked me into it! i like your logic!
so he puts on a yarmulka and says the brachos and shakes the lulav and esrog. and i walked away feeling very proud of myself but now im not so sure…i feel like i debated to win not to be right which is how i usually debate but the stakes were higher here…anyone? opinions?
Good job. I love gotcha/cornering questions.
great job! You definitely have kiruv talent and should pursue it. Seriously.
(Next time, maybe tell him that being that you enjoyed the conversation with him and he enjoyed it too – he said he likes your logic – he should join you for a shabbos meal. Not because he should believe in shabbos but just because it will be enjoyable, and he will make your day by coming, just as he made the kid’s day by shaking the lulav).
wow you’re so lucky you’re able to talk to people like that :). i wish u would talk to someone i know. what are you concerned about?
Now that sounds like judaism, do garbage to make people happy
sheep- what are you getting at? are you anti-semitic or something?
Haha. Good for you for cornering the guy, but your argument isn’t really that sound. Once you concede that the lulav shaking is arbitrary it’s kind of a moot point to claim that someone should do it “just in case.” I mean, sure, maybe we just happened to pick the right thing, but come on, there are an infinite amount of possibilities, and you think we just happened to guess right to swing some branches and a fruit back and forth? That’s not even something worth doing just in case, because by doing so you risk granting validity to foolish beliefs. If I were him I wouldn’t have given in so easily.
brotherofurs – This person you know; what kind of problems is he/she struggling with?
soliek – I feel like a lot of kiruv people make this mistake. But you probably didn’t blow it for the long term, because he probably let the whole incident go anyway. So don’t worry about it. In the future however I would suggest to stick to arguing for the sake of truth, even if that will (seemingly) not effect immediate actions.
On the other hand, you did argue it out respectfully, and sounds like you made a real kiddush Hashem. Maybe that alone will encourage him to have more conversations with frum yidden and next time get a bit farther. So even if you think u coulda done better, i don’t think u blew anything.
soliek
You did great. Not only did the guy shake, you opened the door for him for the future…
And could you teach us some of your debating skills??
Soleik, you sound just like R’ Noach Weinberg, z”l, of Aish HaTorah. Most of your arguments would come straight out of one of his lectures. You seriously have the innate ability to do great things in kiruv. If you had taken a few courses in it, you would have known where to go with this discussion.
I once heard him say about a conversation he was having with a confirmed atheist something like this:
R’ Noach: So do you have any sons in the army?
Atheist: Yes.
R’ Noach: Where is he stationed?
Atheist: In the North at the border with Lebanon (this was about 20 years ago).
R’ Noach: I want you to pray to G-d (whom you don’t believe exists) with all your strength that you want your son to step on a landmine and be blown to smithereens.
Atheist: That’s impossible. I can’t do that.
R’ Noach: Why not? You don’t believe that G-d exists, do your words are just going to nothing.
Of course the atheist had nothing to answer and had to reconsider his whole position of being an atheist.
So if you don’t already have a great job/career or aren’t sitting learning in a yeshiva/kollel 3 sedarim a day, then I would seriously recommend you for a kiruv job.
try Project Inspire
“for those of you who dont know what that is…google is your friend)”
Dont introduce some gibberish and then tell us to look it up explain what it is or dont mention it in the first place.
Many gedolim lament the fact that so many people go into kiruv without the proper hashkafic training and therefore violate and throw out halcha whenever they feel it’s appropriate bec the “ends justify the means”. One put it this way: The kiruv movement, unlike almost all other major international religious jewish orginizations, has no guidance from gedolim at the top and no one in charge; rather it’s just a bunch of people doing there own thing the way they feel it should be done. Furthermore, many kiruv people are more concerned with their “stats” and as soon as they get a guy to keep shabbos, kashrus and taharas hamishpacha, they leave him and don’t follow up. (Nor do they give them any real halachic knowledge to live the other aspects of their lives or even for the fundemental ones aforementioned!) Kiruv can only be undertaken by those with years of Torah learning, hashkafa training, and a Rebbe to call with shailos as they arise.
P.S. his is not to take away or minimize in any way all the tremendous good that has been accomplished by the kiruv movement.
The kiruv movement, unlike almost all other major international religious Jewish organizations, has no guidance from gedolim at the top and no one in charge.
That is a fallacy.
“That is a fallacy.”
Really? And what orginization is in charge of all kiruv anywhere? There is no umbrella orginization that supervises kiruv. That is not to say there aren’t any “kosher” kiruv orginizaitons – there are. Just they don’t constitute the majority of the kiruv workforce. besides for which i have heard in the name of gedolim whom i cannot quote by name due to the potential controversial aspects of this sensitive topic say exactly the same thing. And no, chabad is not under guidance of any accepted gadol (or even one not accepted (and the deceased rebbe doesn’t count)).
Why do you need an umbrella organization? I don’t know about Chabad, I’m referring to other ones. Each has their rabbanim who give them guidance.
Regarding kashrus organizations, we do have the equivalent of an umbrella organization.
Basically, all the hashgachos rely on each other to use the components made by the others, in their stuff. There is a large “club” of hashgachos who rely on each other, and by using one, you are implicitly using the rest since you are probably eating their ingredients.
Any hashgachos which are not up to snuff are marginalized by the “club”, and then we know not to use them.
Thus, the big ones I’m aware of now which are not recommended by the “club” ones, and not used by the many of us, are the “triangle K” and the KVH (vaad of Massachusetts).
This de-facto centralization is quite effective and good for the kosher consumer.
Many organizations will not tell you who is in the club, but the CRC of chicago will.
I also will, by calling the CRC.
popa: The kosher consumer has a hard time knowing who is “in” and who is “out” of the club. (Other than, perhaps, the prominent cases you mentioned.)
When calling the cRc what do you ask them in order to find out who is “in”?
When calling the cRc what do you ask them in order to find out who is “in”?
Well, it usually goes something like this:
Ring Ring
“Sholom CRC”
“Hi, good morning, this is popa”
“Click.”
“Blazes!”
SCENE 2
Ring Ring
“Sholom CRC”
“Hi, Good morning. Do you know anything about the Star K?”
“Do you mean the one with a 5 pointed star and a K inside it? From Baltimore?”
“Yes”
“It is recommended.”
“How about the KVH?”
“It is not recommended, and depends on the product”
“How about the popa k?”
“click”
“hee hee” (runs to YWN to post story about it, but ends up posting even better story he made up about something else.”
ROTFL
yitayningwut-
i’m not really sure exactly what this person’s struggling with cuz they dont really talk about it with me much,
buttt i know that ‘shira’ was religious until ‘shira’ got friendly with someone who was not that religious and the friend’s father passed away and ‘shira’ got very turned off and i guess thought that Hashem isn’t fair chv”s. i know ‘shira’ also doesnt believe she has to do a lot of the mitzvot anymore :'( and doesnt understand why Hashem cares if she prays 🙁 and stuff like that, ‘shira’s’ now resenting it more and more and i think ‘shira’ believes that Hashem created the world but not that Hashem exists in her life anymore. :'( it’s soo sadd
getting back on topic…what evidence do you have to substantiate your ridiculous claim that kiruv organizations lack rabbinic leadership
I don’t know why this problem would be endemic to kiruv organizations, but I do seem to notice a disturbing incidence of kiruv organizations doing disturbing things without rabbinic guidance.
popa: Can you please cite some examples?
popa: Can you please cite some examples?
Yes. But it will make some people mad.
brotherofurs –
Is ‘Shira’ a teenager or an adult?
popa: Okay, so some people will get mad. Let’s hear it.
Popa, tell ut!
yit- well wtvr the 20’s mean. but ‘shira’ acts like an adult.
brotherofurs –
It is sad. The truth is I don’t think there’s a real philosophical issue here. Sometimes people go through a traumatic event and they are powerless to stop it and they have a need to blame someone or express their pain and frustration and God is the obvious choice. But it’s a problem really for therapy, not for kiruv. She’s an adult and runs her own life, but I think if you want to help her the best way would not be to show her the error of her ways, because I don’t believe she’s truly coming at it from a logical angle in the first place. Try to get her to read books or get professional counseling to deal with her pain. Tell her you aren’t going to discuss whether she’s right or wrong about God and prayer etc. because what’s important now is that she’s hurting and the fact that she has someone to blame won’t really remove the pain from her heart, so it would be worthwhile for her to try to get help in dealing with the pain in a healthy way. Once this happens, and it’s a process of course, hopefully her feelings of pain will start to ease, and then she will naturally be more receptive to accepting God back into her life.
popa_bar_abba, just want to note that “depends on the product” and “not recommended” do not mean the same thing. Many, perhaps most, KVH products are perfectly acceptable. I also don’t think it’s fair to put KVH in the same category as Triangle K. Triangle K products that are acceptable generally fall under the category of products that would be acceptable without any hashgacha, such as frozen fruit.
This may be one of my pet peeves, but JFem2, you’ve been here long enough to know better than this. Bumping a thread to try and correct something it’s likely nobody remembers…
I don’t know, maybe nobody does remember, but so what?
I usually don’t do this, but when I noticed this thread I was very surprised, since I’ve never heard anything other than positive about the KVH, so I decided to call the CRC myself, thinking maybe something had changed in the kashrus world in the past two years. The person I spoke to said that it depends on the product. She did not say anything about it being generally not reliable. So I thought I should put that out there, since there’s a real nafka minah.
Would the cRc tell you by telephone *any* specific Orthodox kashruth certification agency, by specific name, is generally unreliable?
If the agency’s reliability varies by product, I’d consider them generally not reliable, unless the problematic cases are because of a specific kula that they rely on.
Lior +1.
By the way, this
Triangle K products that are acceptable generally fall under the category of products that would be acceptable without any hashgacha, such as frozen fruit.
is equivalent to saying “Their hashgacha doesn’t make it nonkosher if it wouldn’t be nonkosher anyway.”
(I know the statement wasn’t meant to reflect positively on them.)
P.S. I think I remember you saying something once about no longer identifying as a feminist. You can ask a mod to change your name if you feel like it – “eftachbchinor” – formerly and briefly known as “ev -tachbchinor” did it just this week.
I don’t understand why anyone would stop identifying as a feminist, though, unless specifically as a third-wave feminist.
If the agency’s reliability varies by product, I’d consider them generally not reliable, unless the problematic cases are because of a specific kula that they rely on.
Yes, but it may also depend on what you rely on them for.
For example, I may rely on a particular hechsher for michig, but not fleishig. I might not be comfortable with a particular hechsher for cheese production, but use a candy with their symbol. I may use a hechsher for packaged goods, but not food service (restaurant/catering). I may not accept what they say about other agencies, or assumptions they make about what does not require hechsher.
It takes some research to make some of these distinctions, so some take an all or nothing approach.
Yes, yes, DaasYochid…
That phone call above is a definite candidate for the “Best of Popa” compilation. If there’s tag that deserves to initiate the use of tags on this board, I think it’s that one.
Great idea, Randomex, why don’t you start a thread? You can call it “Best of Popa” or “Popa’s Marganisas”.
There are 111 pages of his posts at 50 threads each, counting threads posted in without regard to multiple posts-in-thread, DaasYochid! It’s a job for a paid committee. If I was even just promised royalties from the publishing, sure. Otherwise, NO WAY.
(You can start the thread if you want to, and maybe ask old-timers for their lists of great popa posts, if they made any.
But the book is my idea – I said it yesterday: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/have-you-even-been-a-juror#post-536537)
Also, I either hadn’t realized or had forgotten that tags can only be used when opening a thread. They can’t be used to tag an old thread, unless maybe mods can do it.
You don’t have to post everything, it can be like a wiki. I’ll bl”n help.
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