July 11, 2012 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #604078
IDEA: Let the 100,000 attendees at the Siyum Hashas sign a petion against the IDF draft gezeirah.July 11, 2012 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #884859
Why would you want to politicize and create dissension at what should be a joyous time of Achdus?July 11, 2012 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #884860
i don”t see whats political about trying to do our part in saving the Torah, it seems you don’t understand the gravity of the situation we are facing. and no we cant sit back and enjoy a Torah celebration when Torah is at risk, all those that will attend the Siyum hashas understand the value of Torah.July 11, 2012 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #884861
why would the israeli government care about americains?July 11, 2012 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #884862
Would you like it if those people who were protesting the Asifa did the same at the Siyum with their same grievences?July 11, 2012 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #884863golferParticipant
coffee addict, in one word, $$$$July 11, 2012 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #884864
Getzel: There are those who support the Torah who still think that there is nothing wrong with forcing Chareidim to do some form of army or Sheirut Le’umi. We might not agree with them, but it’s still not the place for such statements. People who think that way learn Daf Yomi too.July 11, 2012 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #884865ItcheSrulikMember
What if all the Israeli and American military veterans walked out of the siyum?July 11, 2012 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #884866
zahavasdad: Who cares about those apikorusdika losers. Let them dance on their head protesting every Torah event. It doesn’t bother us and it’s their gehenim, no one else’s.July 11, 2012 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #884867
I don’t think the charedi velt that will go to the siyum hashas are strong money supporters of IsraelJuly 11, 2012 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #884868
coffee addict and golfer its much more than $$$ if they see a real petition of 100000 ppl protesting their actions and get the media to cover it like that it can do a lot. @Citified Horav Mattasyahu used the opportunity to address the topic but back then most of us didn’t see it happening so we did nothing about it.July 12, 2012 2:13 am at 2:13 am #884869
if thats the idea (media coverage) I can tell you for sure it won’t go too well in the lame street media, just like the asifa and well be potrayed as anti israel etc and it will only make things worseJuly 12, 2012 4:15 am at 4:15 am #884870YW Moderator-42Moderator
There was a very nice story on one of the threads here about 2 Israeli soldiers who learned daf yomi together during the 2nd Lebanon War. How would those soldiers feel about this idea?
Whether you like it or not, it is political and would just cause a lot of people to bash us “chareidim”. Let the siyum be a siyum and hopefully it will be a Kiddush Hashem.July 12, 2012 6:07 am at 6:07 am #884871far eastMember
getzel- i plan on attending the siyum and im not against the draft idea. Your personal political opinions are not what the siyum hashas is about. Its a siyum where Jews of all different types join together to celebrate the accomplishment of learning shas…nothing more then thatJuly 12, 2012 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #884872golferParticipant
Great comment, 42.
Not sure if mods are interested in anyone else’s comment on their comment.
What i’m interested in, #42 is how did you let choppy’s comment through?
A bit overdone, no Choppy? You don’t have to agree with everyone, but sending them off to gehinnom?July 12, 2012 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #884873ChortkovParticipant
Is there no website to sign petitions??
Or is that banned under the Treaty of Asifa, 2012??July 12, 2012 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #884874
The next speaker was Harav Boruch Shapiro Rosh Yeshiva in Kol Torah and one of the leaders of the lev lachim movment in Eretz Yisroel. who said Harav Ahron Leib Steinman told him he is his personal shaliach to go to Lakewood and raise funds for lev lachim.Harav Shapiro quoted Harav Shteinman that the yeshuah from the draft gezeirah in Eretz Yisroel will not come from demonstrations but from the stregnthening of Torah learning and teffilos.
The evening ended with a special live video broadcast from Harav Yakkov Edelstein Rav in Ramat Hashoron who gave divrei chizuk . (LakewoodLocal)July 12, 2012 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #884875
The Rosh Yeshiva also blasted a frum magazine and newspaper in america that are trying to portray the army in a positive light writing that it would not be so bad if the Kollel Yungerliet were drafted.
what paper is this?July 13, 2012 12:09 am at 12:09 am #884876Feif UnParticipant
getzel, plenty of people attending the siyum want chareidim to serve in the army.
As for the 100,000 people, there are far many more people in Israel who want them to serve. Should we get those millions to sign a petition also?July 13, 2012 12:22 am at 12:22 am #884877ohr chodeshMember
The Gedolei Yisroel sitting at the dais at the siyum, virtually unanimously are stringently opposed to the draft and consider it a Shaas Shmad.
They are the ones who count.July 13, 2012 1:35 am at 1:35 am #884878
Ohr chodesh and getzel- it’s statements such as yours that are making me lose my emunas chachamim. I’m really starting to think that the Gedolim are just completely out of touch with reality…July 13, 2012 2:08 am at 2:08 am #884879
Then you never had emunas chachomim in the first place. If when the chachomim say something that you think is “just completely out of touch with reality“, that’s when your emunas chachomim should have kicked in and deferred your personal thoughts to what the chachomim think. It is you who is out of touch while the chachomim are in touch with the Torah, which is the ultimate reality.July 13, 2012 2:41 am at 2:41 am #884880
Aha…so what you’re saying, in a nutshell, is that Hashem created our brains and sechel for show? So we should be mindless minions, following people who don’t even understand what the internet is, yet have no problem banning it?
Which now, I must ask – if that’s the case, why are you here?July 13, 2012 3:20 am at 3:20 am #884881
Rashi in Devarim 17:11 says to listen to the Sanhedrin even if they tell you that “right is left” or “left is right”. Of course your retort to Rashi is that the Sanhedrin were humans and could make an error — of course YOU will decide when they make errors — and thus YOU will NOT be a “mindless minions following people who don’t even understand what is right and what is left.
Too bad they print Rashi’s commentary in every Chumash and Gemorah rather than YOUR commentaries.
And I have a filter.July 13, 2012 3:35 am at 3:35 am #884882
Choppy: Learn the Mishnayos in Horiyos then understand what Rashi means.July 13, 2012 3:54 am at 3:54 am #884883
Sam: See Yabiah Omer Y.D. 6:7.2 when Rav Ovadia discusses the Mishnayos in Horiyos and concludes that once he has directly discussed the issue with the Sanhedrin and they have rejected his view, despite his best efforts, then the halacha becomes that he must obey them even if he is still convinced he is right.July 13, 2012 4:01 am at 4:01 am #884884
Choppy, it does not mean that the Sanhedrin is indeed right. Itjust means that you have a chiyuv to follow them even though they are wrong. However, you need a Sanhedrin for that. Besides, if a Rov paskens a shailah, and you know he is wrong, you can not follow him.July 13, 2012 4:12 am at 4:12 am #884885
Choppy: And we have a Sanhedrin nowadays who can accomplish that? Once we have a Sanhedrin, the Din of Zaken Mamrei comes into play. Now, though, that doesn’t exist.July 13, 2012 5:58 am at 5:58 am #884886
Honestly its bellow me to argue with pepole that do not believe in Daas Torah therefore my answer to you is.
?? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? (???? ??July 13, 2012 9:44 am at 9:44 am #884887Disrael613Member
TO Getzel1: Your idea does not have proper merit, instead of focusing on the draft gezirah maybe you should focus on Avahat Yisrael and not creating more Sinat Chinam. It is the three weeks, the beis hamikdash was not destroyed from a lack of Torah Learning but rather from Sinat Chinam. It does not matter what our personal opinions are regarding the draft, the Siyum Hashas is not the place for it, it is a place that should be used to create Avahat Yisrael. Use the siyum hashas to get to know someone new, and to make new friends, to work towards the rebuilding of the beis hamikdash. I am aware of what Gedoli Yisrael say about the draft, but more important then the draft is the coming of Mashiach and repairing the sins that caused the exile in the first place.
So NEW Idea let all those at the Siyum Hashas, embrace someone of a different Hashkafa from you, and spread the light of Torah together to more nations around the world!July 13, 2012 10:50 am at 10:50 am #884888
The Gedolei Yisroel sitting at the dais at the siyum, virtually unanimously are stringently opposed to the draft and consider it a Shaas Shmad.
They are the ones who count.
An Averich went to Rav Chaim Sonnenfeld for an important meeting (I forgot the exact reason, Bracha, Approbation, Tzedaka help something like that)
Rav Chaim threw him out and told him that he will not help him because the Averich was disrectful of Rav Kook.July 13, 2012 11:23 am at 11:23 am #884889
Honestly, it is not bellow me to argue with the distortion of the Torah.July 13, 2012 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #884890PLONIALMONI4Member
Some food for thought.
Who is Daas Torah today?
Would you reject the Mizrachi rabbonim who do work within the system and have Yeshivahs where the boys do go to the army?
I am not a Mizrachi person but I do admire what they do.
Does that make me an apikorus?
In my mind, in today’s fractured environment Daas Torah is your local Rov who you respect and go to for day to day issues.
In times gone past when there was a central rabbinic authority within a community they were Daas Torah and they were the voice for issues great and small.Not so in today’s world.July 13, 2012 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #884891yehudayonaParticipant
1. It’s a huge mistake for the Siyum Hashas to get involved in politics of any kind.
2. There was an interesting article in Hamodia that said that the IDF doesn’t want chareidi soldiers because it would be too expensive and too much trouble. The bottom line, according to the article, is that it’s just political posturing and it’s not going to happen.July 13, 2012 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #884892
Getzel: Really? You won’t enter a Halachic discussion because people can quote Mekoros and therefore “do not believe in Da’as Torah”? What kind of Judaism is that?July 13, 2012 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #884893
From 1880-1940 Most of the Gedolim paskind it was assur B’Farhesa to leave Europe for ‘De Goldnena Medina” or in the 1920 and 1930 Palestine.July 13, 2012 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #884894
Hey getzel1 and choppy –
Who cares if you have a filter? The gedolim said that you can use the internet with a filter ONLY for work.
Guess what – this site isn’t for work.
So I ask again…why are you here? Unless you both are so hypocritical that you only follow the gedolim when you feel like it.July 13, 2012 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #884895gregaaronMember
@Choppy, Getzel et al
While you are correct (at least in my view) in your definition of Da’as Torah and Emunas Chachomim, it is not out of the realm of understanding that there can be people with very real questions. Baruch Hashem, you are lucky that you are at a point where you can blindly follow Da’as Torah without any qualms – but not everyone is there. Personally, I think I am somewhere in between. Ideally, would I like to be able to say that everything I hear from every Rov is correct? Yes, I would love to be there. But I know I’m not, and as a result there will be times that I will stop to question some things. Perhaps that puts me at a lower level – I don’t mind being told that. But a person doesn’t choose to have questions, and someone like Thecuriousone – who, it seems, does not want to lose his emunah – is someone who maybe should be answered, rather than belittled.July 13, 2012 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #884896
thecuriousone: Wrong. Just because you have no emunas chachomim, doesn’t indicate others don’t. The gedolim said you can have it at home with a filter.
gregaaron: thecuriousone is a leitz publicly mocking talmidei chachomim.July 13, 2012 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #884897ItcheSrulikMember
Sam2: The kind of Judaism that is probably apikorsus according to the Rambam. 🙂July 15, 2012 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #884898
Honestly I had decided not to get into debate since I see that there is a total lack of kvod hatorah, and I will not further debate the issue, I would like to share a very powerful story.
A yid went of the derech he sined the worst posible sins, his lifestyle was totaly secular he married a goy etc..
He met his rebbi whom many years before was his rebbi, upon seeing his state of yiddeshkeit, the rebbi exclaimed how did u fall so low?! The fellow answered BUT REBBI I HAVE MANY QUISTIONS ON YIDDESKEIT, the rebbi answered, first you sinned then you had the quistions.
If you understand the story and the point good-if not then as reb chaim brisker said, nebach an apikoras is uber oich an apikores.July 15, 2012 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #884899
Getzel1, what shayhos?July 15, 2012 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #884900
Wrong Getzel. The only lack of Kavod Hatorah here is someone who refuses to actually learn or discuss something because (I honestly have no idea why you are refusing this discussion). MDD and I are discussing P’shat in a Gemara. What possible lack of Kavod Hatorah is involved in that? Because you don’t like the Gemara?
Oh, and R’ Chaim’s statement is just explaining the Rambam. Pashtus is that we don’t Pasken like that Rambam (for several reasons, the most notable is the Ra’avad’s Ta’ana that “Gedolim V’tovim Mimenu”).July 15, 2012 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #884901
@Choppy: Apparently, you don’t read very well, nor listen to the Gedolim much either. The gedolim said explicitly that filtered internet can ONLY be used for business.
Again, just to make sure you understood…BUSINESS USE ONLY.
So, now that you understand (and I sincerely hope you do at this point – otherwise you have some other issues as well), why are you here?
@Getzel1: Not sure what you’re implying here. Because I have questions, my yiddiskeit is on the level of an apilokores? I do hope you don’t actually think that. If so…nebach. Nebach.
You have no idea who I am or what I’ve gone through. Don’t act as if you do.July 15, 2012 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #884902
Wrong, curiousone. In fact, the Gedolim, at the Flatbush Asifa, gave instructions on how to put a filter on HOME computers! They even gave the wives instructions on how to control family usage of the internet at HOME.
But don’t let the facts get in the way of your agenda.July 15, 2012 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #884903
@Gregarron: Thank you for that post. As you said, I have some very real questions, and I would like them answered. It’s truly unfortunate that people like Choppy and Getzel1 troll these forums as well.July 16, 2012 12:11 am at 12:11 am #884905
@Choppy – what about the Gedolim at the other asifa? You know, the big one.
Regardless, most Gedolim did not allow for internet in the home – even with a filter. So you picked the lenient views? Who are you to say the other Gedolim aren’t right?
Very hypocritical, if you ask me…July 16, 2012 12:16 am at 12:16 am #884906
The Flatbush Asifa and the Citifield Asifa gave 2 different messages.July 16, 2012 1:31 am at 1:31 am #884907
Both Asifa’s gave the same message. Rav Matisyahu Solomon was behind both Asifa’s. And Rav Matisyahu Solomon approved of the message — to install filters at HOME — at the Flatbush Asifa. He was sitting on the dais (and spoke) the entire Flatbush Asifa. He saw the booklets and the agenda approving of home filtering, before the Asifa.July 16, 2012 1:51 am at 1:51 am #884908
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