December 29, 2008 6:57 am at 6:57 am #589005Y.W. EditorKeymaster
Your comments?December 29, 2008 7:10 am at 7:10 am #630224chaimssParticipant
While I welcome the move, I’m afraid it’s come too late, and is really only a political move to counter the hawkish opposition. But then again, that’s what war is defined as: An instrument of national policy through violent means.December 29, 2008 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #630225
About time…and I will withhold any comments until the operation is finished and we see how effective it was and whether or not the government bows to any pressure from the UN, EU and similar sonei Yisroel.December 29, 2008 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #630226
And what will be accomplished? Will Hamas cease to exist? Will Hamas be afraid or unable to commit further suicidal murderous attacks?
The Zionist – Arab conflict has NO military solution.December 29, 2008 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #630227
So far israel is doing a nice job by taking care of the arabs and more is coming. They destroyed alot of their tunnels where the arabs built/transported weapons.December 29, 2008 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #630228
B”H it is currently in Olmert’s best personal interests (to keep the Prime Minister’s office a little longer) to do what’s right for Israel’s safety. This is the first time in a while that his personal interests and the interests of the country are in line with each other. When they aren’t, we all know which he chooses.December 29, 2008 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #630229
Charlie Brown: Stop talking bad about Olmert, he is the best prime minister israel ever had.December 29, 2008 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #630230
charlie – Like EVERY zionist that was in charge of that failed State.December 29, 2008 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #630231
yea like most of them, but Olmert takes it to a whole new level.
what makes him the best PM? the disaster of lebanon2? The corruption? The hold onto matter no matter what happens attitude?December 29, 2008 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #630232
Yes, the state is failed because it was a flawed concept to begin with. Llihyot am chofshi beartzeinu was doomed to fail because we are not meant to be an am chofshi and our only claim to EY is that Hashem gave it to us as a place to run according to Torah law.
However, we do NOT want the terrorists and their Iranian and Saudi support base to destroy it and kill innocent Jews in the process. Maybe Fweeky Fweedy in Vienna would welcome such a scenario but he is a (choiser) dass yochid.
We need Moshiach to dismantle it and replace the whole corrupt system with Malchus Beis Dovid – NOW!December 29, 2008 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #630233
Charlie Brown: That is not his fault.December 29, 2008 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #630234
wow, too much bourbon again. 🙂
that should have said “The hold onto POWER no matter what happens attitude?”December 29, 2008 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #630235
what’s not his fault? Lebanon 2? The winograd commision put lots of the blame on him. What about the other things I mentioned? Is his corruption also not his fault? Is his power-first attitude also not his fault? Can you tell us what positive accomplishments he’s done that make you call him the best PM?December 29, 2008 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #630236
charlie brown: no it’s not his fault. he is just the pmDecember 29, 2008 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #630237ddParticipant
“The Zionist – Arab conflict…”
That’s just obscene.
I’ve sparred a bit with Joseph in the past, but when he describes the murderous actions of many Yishmaelim against our Jewish brothers as the “Zionist-Arab” conflict, it’s just too much.
You’ve joined up with the Netuei Karta (yemach shemam).December 29, 2008 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #630238
The winograd commission (which he hand picked with the hope they would whitewash his shortcomings) disagreed with you.
Once again, Can you tell us what positive accomplishments he’s done that make you call him the best PM?December 29, 2008 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #630239sammyjoeMember
Ehud olmert is trying to leave on a “good note”. dont eorry he will be back in a few years (hopefully Moshiach should come b/f then) just like bibi and ehud barak are back! remember that in Israel a politcian is out when he dies, i guess they dont have term limitsDecember 29, 2008 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #630241mamashtakahMember
Head on down to Gaza and tell them you’re not a Zionist. They’ll lynch you whether you’re a Zionist or not. In case you missed it, Tzahal defends the Jews that live here, Zionist or not.December 29, 2008 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #630242
its not just to leave on a good note. Its to avoid leaving:December 29, 2008 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #630243
the whole conflict started when Zionism started. before that the Arabs barely cared about the Jews. it was the Christians we were worried about. look at how that’s turned around.
and i know they say that the end of the galus is going to be ruled by yishmael. bit it’s not our job to carry out hashem’s plans. we need to do the right things and hashem will figure out how and when to bring mashiach.December 29, 2008 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #630246
oops, you forgot to switch to your joseph username before that zionism bashing post.
Just kidding.December 29, 2008 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #630247squeakParticipant
brooklyn, you obviously know nothing of the situation yidden in Israel lived in before Zionism. The Arabs were always a bloodthirsty lot, and the Jews were attacked by Arab mobs many times. What you just wrote is propaganda, started by Arab sympathizers, who want you to believe that the Jews brought this violence on themselves by inventing Zionism.December 29, 2008 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #630248SJSinNYCMember
Joseph, sometimes you really disgust me.
The “zionist” army is the one who protects the men learning in Yeshiva from being slaughtered. So, lets remove the army for ONE DAY and see how many Jews are left.
Brooklyn, our enemy is constantly changing. Aside from the fact that Jews were only tolerated in Arab countries with huge bribes and severely restricted freedoms. To the Arabs, Israel is actually the greatest thing. It deflects from their gross negligence of the population and gives them a “cause” to champion. Even if Israel would be wiped off the map chas vishalom, then the Arabs would just turn around and fight each other.
I am so greatful for having Israel under Jewish control. Would I prefer that certain halachas would be enforced? Sure – but we don’t have a proper halachic government to lead us. Be greatful for the ability to go to Israel, daven there, learn there. Have some hakaras hatov.December 29, 2008 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #630249
That’s a load of hogwash. The Arabs have been killing the Jews for centuries. Quit reading Miller and Artscroll history of Zionism. The Arabs have been killing us long before Zionism.December 29, 2008 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #630250seeallsidesParticipant
it’s too complicated – we really need to daven – i just spoke to somebody who told me that the arab that stabbed a jew (who is a frum father of four with a 2 month old baby) got precedence over the jew for use of the operating room…..can you imagine how the family feels – these are our people, our brothers, our kids going into tanks to fight, knowing that they get second guessed over every decision made – it’s just endlessly complicated – hashem, please have rachmonus and help your children!December 29, 2008 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #630251
No Virginia, there is no Santa. The zionists have caused the great anger of the Arab against the Jew, that has now resulted in the last 100 years of violence. Prior to the advent of zionism (circa 1898), as bad as it may have been to live in an Arab country, is was MANY MANY times better than a Yid living in a Christian country.December 29, 2008 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #630252
charley brown: He always grants the jews requests.December 29, 2008 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #630253
it was never this bad. not even close. i know a lot about sephardic history. it wasn’t always so hunkey dory, but NOTHING compared to the christians. when did it start building up? when us jew started moving into israel. and in ’48 the arabs were really angry and from there it all went downhill.December 29, 2008 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #630254
brooklyn19, in ’48 it got much worse of course, but the zionists riled up the Arabs as far back as zionism exists — late 1800’s.December 29, 2008 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #630255Why Do I Even BotherMember
We can tell all the Arabs to back off, as we rip eachother apart over here.
Can’t we get along on anything?!?
The IDF is pounding Gaza, the whole Israel is tzitering waiting for suicide attacks to resume in full force, people in Ashdod are running from rockets, and all we can do here is fight amongst ourselves.
Sickening.December 29, 2008 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #630256intellegentMember
you seem to have woken up on the wrong side this morning. You usually use a much more polite tone! Go eat some chocolate or something to get you into a better mood. 🙂
There is a lot more to Israel medina than feeling protected and being able to go to the kosel etc. There are those who say that if they never would have gotten control, the arabs would not have been provoked to do what they do and we would not have needed the army. (that is not to say that the arabs are not rotzchim. Of course they are but as you say, it wouldn’t necessarily be directed at us or at least not to such an extent.) So you might want to stick to your opinion and so will Joseph, brooklyn 19 etc but just giving you some insight to others’ opinion.
I am not being unrealistic and saying that the arabs are doing what they do solely because of zionism. They are rotzchim by nature and as brooklyn said that the last galus is galus yishmoel. But still, it makes sense that the fact that israel is run by jews, the arabs attack. They want israel too!December 29, 2008 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #630257
intellegent, with all due respect to R’ Miller, his views on Zionism are not sole view allowed.
As an interesting point, why is it that on YWN, you find a disporportionate number of his followers than in the real world?December 29, 2008 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #630258
Be greatful for the ability to go to Israel, daven there, learn there. Have some hakaras hatov.
No, I am not grateful for this. It came about because of the death of six million Jews and the failure of the US and other countries to act properly before the event, as well as the desire of Europeans to be rid of their remaining Jews after the war.
Far too high a price to pay, considering that if the zionists had not agitated, we would have eventually been welcomed as protected and honored guests the way I was when I visited the kivrei tzaddikim in Morocco (and the way the foreign born rabbonim of Chabad and Otzar HaTorah were welcomed to reside there once the period of agitation and emigration ended and there was no more suspicion of rabbonim being “Zionist spies”).
However, we do not know how Hashem works and why this magefa of Zionism was able to take hold and ruin so many Jews spiritually and physically. The reason why the government cannot act is because it is based on falsehood. Hashem gave us 1967 because Jews were in danger; the government made a mess in 1973 and then the movement to surrender what Hashem gave the Jewish, not the “Israeli” but the Jewish, people began in earnest. Now we see where that leads.
We can only daven and learn in the hope that Hashem, who is shoimer petoim, will protect am Yisroel from the folly of the Zionists. (Again, the only replacement for the medine is malchus beis Dovid though if it could be dismantled in peace we would be far better off at this point).December 29, 2008 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #630259
joseph – i know. lol around when the kollel system started in eretz yisrael… :}December 29, 2008 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #630260
IF you only had a clue how widespread and varied Hagoen HaRav Avigdor Miller ZTV’L following is.December 30, 2008 12:41 am at 12:41 am #630261BogenParticipant
Itzik_S, brooklyn19, You are absolutely correct. The tziyonim have caused untold death and destruction in Klal Yisroel. Anything the zionists do in contaminated with pure tumah. People like ‘dd’ need to get a grip and realize they are going down a ditch with the zionists before it is too late.December 30, 2008 1:58 am at 1:58 am #630262
Joseph, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but his following is extremely small.December 30, 2008 2:06 am at 2:06 am #630263
yossiea, You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. In fact, there are far more followers of Rav Miller ZTV’L alone, then there are MO altogether.December 30, 2008 2:39 am at 2:39 am #630264000646Participant
“In fact, there are far more followers of Rav Miller ZTV’L alone, then there are MO altogether.”
If you by that you mean people that agree with and really know alot of what he said no there arn’t.December 30, 2008 3:20 am at 3:20 am #630265ujmParticipant
000646: Yes, indeed there are. R’ Miller has more followers than you could ever count.December 30, 2008 3:23 am at 3:23 am #630267ujmParticipant
Unleash Israel and Win Peace
Dec. 6, 2001
WSJ Op-Ed by Rush Limbaugh
The only way some form of quiet will ever exist in the Middle East is if Israel is given the latitude to totally defeat its declared enemies. Only then will the terrorist attacks on Israel’s civilians come to an end. Perpetual negotiations, diplomatic half measures, or land for peace deals will not bring peace to the Middle East. For those who believe this is an irresponsible notion, I use history as my guide.
Today marks the 60th anniversary of Imperial Japan’s unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor, in which 2,500 Americans were killed. There are lessons to be learned from our victory in that war. In his April 16, 1945 address before a Joint Session of Congress, President Harry Truman stated: “So there can be no possible misunderstanding, both Germany and Japan can be certain, beyond any shadow of doubt, that America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains. We are deeply conscious of the fact that much hard fighting is still ahead of us. Having to pay such a heavy price to make complete victory certain, America will never become a party to any plan for partial victory. To settle for merely another temporary respite would surely jeopardize the future security of the world. Our demand has been, and it remains, unconditional surrender.”
On August 6, 1945, just 16-hours after the United States dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan, Truman issued a statement which said, in part: “The Japanese began the war from the air at Pearl Harbor. They have been repaid many fold… We are now prepared to obliterate more rapidly and completely every productive enterprise the Japanese have above ground in any city. We shall destroy their docks, their factories, and their communications. Let there be no mistake: we shall completely destroy Japan’s power to make war.”
Truman understood that there could be no peace without total victory. This lesson has not been lost on President George Bush. On September 20, 2001, Bush also addressed a Joint Session of Congress and announced America’s policy — “the Bush Doctrine” — in responding to the atrocities of September 11. He stated: “…Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated.”
Bush stated further: “…We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.”
Since September 11, Bush has refused all offers by the Taliban regime to negotiate any settlement of the war — including the status of Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants in the al Qaeda terrorist network — short of outright surrender. As Bush once eloquently put it: bin Laden is “wanted, dead or alive.” And for over two months, the U.S. has been systematically bombing the Taliban and al Qaeda day and night. Already, the Bush administration is planning the next phase of the war, which may involve U.S. military action in Iraq, Somalia and elsewhere.
So, in the two most recent examples of the U.S. being attacked on its own territory, America’s predicate for peace has been the total annihilation of its enemies. And there is every reason to expect Israel’s Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to have learned the same lesson.
Since 1948, Israel has been forced to fight 4 wars with the hostile nations surrounding her. Despite defeating her enemies on the battlefield, the international community has never permitted Israel to completely destroy any of these regimes — none of which are democracies. They’ve always been left largely in tact, free to start or support another war, including the current terrorist war now being waged against Israel’s citizens. And between wars, Israel’s enemies have convinced the world, including the U.S., that her borders and security are not only legitimate subjects of constant negotiations, but that Israel’s refusal to accept most, if not all, of her enemies’ demands is an obstacle to peace.
This week Hamas and other terrorist groups — which, like certain of the countries that surround Israel, seek the destruction of Israel, not co-existence or even the establishment of a Palestinian state — intensified their war against the Jewish state by unleashing 5 fanatic suicide bombers against innocent civilians, mostly children. The result: hundreds of casualties, including 26 dead. In the past 14 months, more than 230 Israelis have been killed — the proportional equivalent to the U.S. losing some 11,000 people.
In addition to Hamas, which receives support from Palestinian expatriates, wealthy Saudi Arabians, and Iran, Israel is under attack from, among others, Hizballah, which is supported by Syria and Iran, and Islamic Jihad, which is backed by Iran, Sudan and militant Islamic groups.
On December 4, in an address to his nation, Sharon stated: “…A war has been forced upon us. A war of terror. A war that claims innocent victims daily. A war of terror being conducted systematically, in an organized fashion, and with methodical direction… We will pursue those responsible, the perpetrators of terrorism and the supporters. We will pursue them until we catch them, and they will pay a price.”
Ironically, the major obstacle to Sharon implementing the Bush Doctrine has been U.S. Middle East policy. When attacked by terrorists, Israel has been urged to show “restraint,” to make more negotiated concessions and even accept the creation of a hostile Palestinian state on its border. This week’s carnage appears to have caused some positive change in America’s rhetoric and position. The president has now pointed the finger of responsibility directly at Yassar Arafat for ending the terrorism committed by his people. But accomplishing peace requires more — much more.
Truman was right to insist that peace would only be realized after the “obliteration” of the Japanese war machine, just as Bush is right about “defeating” the Taliban, al Qaeda and other terrorist networks. It is, therefore, necessary that in the pursuit of real and lasting peace, Israel also be free to destroy its enemies — meaning the terrorists and, yes, their sponsors, who are at war with her, and that she do so before they obtain devastating weapons of mass destruction.
(an op-ed by Rush Limbaugh, originally published on Dec. 6, 2001)December 30, 2008 5:13 am at 5:13 am #630268mazal77Participant
Hello, what about the Chevron massacre in 1929, before Israel was a state??December 30, 2008 5:48 am at 5:48 am #630269
animosity was building up for a while before the state was independent. before the 20th century.December 30, 2008 10:37 am at 10:37 am #630270
Mazal77, the massacre was said to be a reaction to the Balfour declaration. Just as in Morocco and Iraq, formerly peaceful Arab neighbors turned against local Jews because of outside influences.
As for Rav Miller ZYA, his impact is indeed very great even after his petira. And I am not a follower myself yet I know and am saying this.
Regardless of this, however, we must daven and learn for the safety of the Jews of E”Y and for the army to have the siyata deshmaya it needs to be victorious – or better yet, Moshiach should come and replace the Zionist travesty with malchus beis Dovid NOW!December 30, 2008 11:37 am at 11:37 am #630271Will HillParticipant
Like some other posters mentioned, the Arab world was riled up against the Jews by the zionists as soon as the zionists started agitating to take over Palestine.
The evils of zionism began under Herzl as early as about 1900.January 8, 2009 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #630272eitan k.Member
i cant wait till eliyahu shows up and tells brooklyn19 and josef how wrong they are and how hed show up sooner if they would have learnt a bit about ahvat yisrael, learn some artscroll midot book!
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