If a pig was genetically modified to chew its cud, would it be kosher?

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  • #1570614

    Shulem Lemmer
    Participant

    If they were to genetically modify a pig to chew its cud, would it be kosher?

    #1570916

    laskern
    Participant

    The Ohr Hachaim says in Parshas Shemini that there will be a new pig created by the redemption that will chew its cud which will be kosher. Aisov who is compared to the pig being fake showing its cut hoofs will repent and therefore it will become kosher.

    #1570919

    laskern
    Participant

    According to the above Ohr Hachaim why do we need to create a new entity let us do a genetic modification to make it kosher?

    #1570954

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Laskern,

    Why doesn’t genetically modifying make it new?

    #1570964

    akuperma
    Participant

    1. You aren’t talking about “genetic modification” but rather a total rearrangement and redesign of its internal organs and digestive tract. At that point, it would not be a pig. It goes beyond, even from a science fiction perspective, genetic modification (cf: quotation above showing this can not be done by science but only by a Ha-Shem).

    2. It would have no messorah.

    3. A more reasonable question would be modification of the hoofs of camels and llamas.

    #1571015

    laskern
    Participant

    I remember that a kosher animal that chews its cud has multiple stomachs so I don’t think this is scientifically possible.

    #1571280

    Toi
    Participant

    Either way, it’ll be a yotzei min hatomaeh tomeh.

    #1571324

    Milhouse
    Participant

    akuperma, a mesorah is required only for birds. There is no such requirement for mammals, and nobody has the right to invent one.

    #1571325

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Yes, such a pig would be a different species from the treife pig, and it would be kosher. (Every twenty years or so, somebody “discovers” the babirusa pig, which has an stomach similar to that of ruminants, and jumps to the conclusion that it is actually a ruminant pig, and therefore kosher. This causes a huge burst of discussion until someone bursts the bubble by pointing out that it doesn’t actually ruminate, and is therefore treif after all. Twenty years later someone else makes the same discovery and the cycle repeats.)

    #1571359

    Joseph
    Participant

    Pork, anyone?

    #1571384

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Even if a mesorah were required, wouldn’t the mesorah only have to start with the birth of the first of the species?

    #1571385

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    What about genetically combining a pig and a llama?

    #1571400

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    The libs are currently working on it. They first have to finish turning a male into a female and vice versa

    #1571403

    apushatayid
    Participant

    If I had wheels, could I be a bus?

    #1571416

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    If a human chews its cud are they kosher too . I see it all day long. All that needs to be determined is thier hoof status.

    #1571633

    huju
    Participant

    I like apushyyid’s comment about a bus.

    If you want a kosher pig, it might be easier to genetically modify a goat to have a short curly tail, shorter legs and a shorter snout. Or you could buy those faux bacon chips and sprinkle them on veal.

    #1574199

    knaidlach
    Participant

    there is a chakira whether the simanim are the cause that makes the animal kosher? or its just a sign that the animal is kosher for other reasons?

    #1574211

    DovidBT
    Participant

    If you want a kosher pig, it might be easier to genetically modify …

    What about modifying the pig to have fins and scales, and to live in the sea? That would have the advantage of not requiring shechitah.

    #1574648

    apushatayid
    Participant

    there is a chakira…….

    According to this tzad…”the simanim are the cause that makes the animal kosher”, so, if I would split the hooves of a camel would it become kosher since it now has both simanim?

    #1574659

    apushatayid
    Participant

    What if you lived in a pineapple under the sea?

    #1574740

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think a Mesorah for animals is debateable. Some will not eat Bison because there is no mesorah for them

    #1574762

    beisyosef
    Participant

    Ok, so I actually dealt with this shailah extensively before. It actually is theoretically possible although it would cost millions of dollars. Once we perfect the reading of genetics (we’ll probably use AI for that) CRISPR will be able to do this. To answer the problem of lol hayotzei min hatamei you would be able to use a kosher animal as a surrogate mother. You would need to modify the genetics and make it chew it’s cud (and not just say kol hayotzei min hatahor) because shua says that if a kosher animal has a child that looks like a bird it’s taref, and the taz I believe (possibly the shach) says that it means if a kosher animal has a child that only has one of the simanei tahara. However, the only problem I did come across was a Ramban (vayikra 19:19) that says that the issur of kilayim by animals is that Hashem created a perfect world and therefore it’s assure for a human to act as God, because you’re showing witg your actions that you think the world isn’t perfect and it’s lacking. However, if a goy were to make the animal then it would be kosher. And in regards to mesorah, that is only by birds as others have commented.
    (Credentials: I’m a shocker and have discussed it with multiple household name gedolim and they told me that in theory it would be mutar, but chances are it would never get a hashgacha)

    #1574765

    Git Meshige
    Participant

    If a women decides to become a man, can she/he be counted for a minyan? I would answer in the negative. Since she was born a women , her essence is a women. So to with a pig, it was born a pig and will remain a pig no matter the changes

    #1574849

    beisyosef
    Participant

    1st of all I’m meant that I’m a shochet #autocorrect
    2nd, Git Meshige, the point is we’re saying that if you take the somatic cell of a pig, genetically modify it, and implant it into a surrogate kosher animal (let’s say a cow), and the cow gave birth to it, halachically speaking it’s a cow because kol hayotzei min hatahor tahor.

    #1574874

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    The origins of a grapefruit is an orange and pamello. Do u call it an orange/ pamello or a grapefruit?

    #1574893

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Beisyosef – Isn’t the Ramban simply giving the taam for the issur klayim? If so, genetic modifications would be assur in the “spirit of the law” but not in the “letter of the law.” And once it’s only the spirit of the law it becomes easier to come up with svaras over why making a treif animal kosher is different, in spirit, than doing klayim.

    #1574914

    Milhouse
    Participant

    zehavasdad, it is not debatable, and those who don’t eat bison for this reason are amhoratzim and are denying the Torah.

    #1579673

    LanderTalmid
    Participant

    How would the pig of the ohr hachaim be kosher if kol hayotzeh? Would a cow give birth to a cud-chewing pig?

    #1579703

    laskern
    Participant

    LanderTalmid, I think it will be a new creation which will chew its cud as it needs multiple stomachs as mentioned above.

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