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April 16, 2013 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #609028playtimeMember
why are there so many disputes in Halacha?
April 16, 2013 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #945987☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThe disputes are over which piskei halachah were given.
April 16, 2013 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #945988gavra_at_workParticipantTalmud: 2 points:
1: Not all Halacha was given at Sinai (wait before you call me a Kofer). New cases which did not exist come up, and being a Posek Halacha is working the process of how to pasken and where to place the question. A perfect example of this is the “Shabbos Mode” ovens which the Star-K allows to be adjusted on Yom Tov.
2: Already at the time of Yehoshua, many Halachos were forgotten. You have to remember that the TSBP was transmitted orally, which is ripe for breeding mistakes. Many times in the Gemorah we have two talmidim who say the exact opposite B’shem their Rebbe, while their Rebbe only held one opinion.
April 16, 2013 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #945989pou_bearMembershivim ponim latorah
April 16, 2013 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #945990Sam2ParticipantTalmud: The Geonim assume that because we were persecuted and because Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai couldn’t properly learn everything, we lost our Mesorah and disputes arose as to what the Halachah that was given at Sinai was. The Rambam has a drastically, drastically different Shittah on this.
April 16, 2013 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #945991Geordie613ParticipantSee first perek of avos. something like this, please correct me if i’m wrong.
All the time there were neviim, there was no machlokes in halocha. Afterwards, when talmidim became weaker and the transmission of torah shebaal peh became weaker, differences began to appear in halochos, the way they were transmitted to different talmidim, and further on. Hence the appearance of machlokes in halocho.
April 16, 2013 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #945992☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantGavra,
The principles behind the halachos were given, so point 1 still requires point 2.
April 16, 2013 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #945993ubiquitinParticipantI’m not sure what you mean by “all of halacha was given at Sinai” Obviously this this isnt true.
The halachic process was certainly given but for example many situations hadnt arisen yet. To take a recent example, I dont think anybody would say the halacho of whether or not IVF is allowed was given at sinai (Though I wouldnt be surprised if some people did in fact think so, I have ceased being surprised at some nonsense emanating from certain circles). A framework was given and using that framework well-versed/learned poskim apply it to new situations, thus arriving at different legitimate conclusions.
This is but one example of a source of machlokes but it explains many
April 16, 2013 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #945994gavra_at_workParticipantDY: It is a question of application, which may differ Al Pi Svorah.
April 16, 2013 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #945995WolfishMusingsParticipantClearly not all the halachos were given at Sinai. Obvious examples of halachos that came afterward include:
Which death penalty to give to the Sabbath desecrator
Pesach Sheini
Inheritence when there are daughter(s) but no sons
The Wolf
April 16, 2013 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #945996benignumanParticipant(You might want to read the Tzvi Lampel’s translation of the Rambam’s introduction to Pirush HaMishnayos, and his books the Dynamics of Dispute). But in short the answer is as follows:
When we say that Torah Shel Bal Peh was given from Hashem to Moshe we mean different things depending on the subject. So there are some halachos that are Moshe m’pi HaGevurah as it is understood simply (e.g. the color and shape of teffilin). There are other parts of the Oral Tradition that are received understandings/interpretations as to the meaning of words in the Written Torah (e.g. that “an eye for an eye” refers to a monetary payment). In these areas there can be no dispute in principle (one cannot argue on what Hashem told Moshe) but only a dispute as to what the tradition actually is. Therefore dispute in these areas arises only because somebody forgot or made a mistake in the chain of tradition.
Moshe Rabbeinu was also given a series of methodologies (like keys to a code) that would allow the Chachamim to derive new halachos when faced with new situations. It could also be used to revive forgotten halachos. On these, in each generation a given Sanhedrin could argue and reverse the decisions of a previous Sanhedrin and therefore the Halacha could change. Of course human beings can have machlokes in the applications of these methodologies. While in earlier generations these machlokesim could be resolved by the Sanhedrin, in later generations when there was no regularly sitting Sanhedrin, machlokes could proliferate.
Of course there were also many disputes about whether or not to make gezeiros and takanos, and then later about the extent of those gezeiros, their applicability to new situations, etc.
April 16, 2013 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #945997benignumanParticipantWolf,
When people use the phrase “Torah MiSinai” or “from Sinai” they don’t mean literally. Rather they mean Torah as given directly from Hashem to Moshe throughout the entire wandering in the desert.
April 16, 2013 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #945998gavra_at_workParticipantWhich death penalty to give to the Sabbath desecrator
Pesach Sheini
Inheritence when there are daughter(s) but no sons
The gemorah discusses each of these cases, IIRC (Megalgalin). From what I have learned, according to the Shittah of Torah Chasumah Nitna (that we are assuming), the question was one of applicability (meaning if the Halacha as will be tought should be applied at that point), not of knowledge.
April 16, 2013 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #945999WolfishMusingsParticipantThe gemorah discusses each of these cases, IIRC (Megalgalin). From what I have learned, according to the Shittah of Torah Chasumah Nitna (that we are assuming), the question was one of applicability (meaning if the Halacha as will be tought should be applied at that point), not of knowledge.
That’s very difficult to say when the pasuk explicitly states that the manner of death penalty for the Shabbos desecrator was not explicitly stated.
The Wolf
April 16, 2013 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #946000gavra_at_workParticipantThat’s very difficult to say when the pasuk explicitly states that the manner of death penalty for the Shabbos desecrator was not explicitly stated.
I’m not sure what you mean by “that”. Would you mind expounding a bit?
The Torah says ” ???????????? ?????, ????????????: ???? ??? ??????, ???-????????? ???.”
The Gemorah explains in BB 119A:
????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? (???? ??) ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????
Assuming Torah Chasumah Nitna, that means Moshe knew the Mikoshsh should get skilah, but was unsure if the din was “ready” to be applied, as Hashem did not yet “officially” tell him.
A similar question would have come up if a bird’s nest was found during the time the Beni Yisroel were in the Midbar. Since the Parsha of Shiluach Haken was not yet officially said, Moshe would not have been able to tell the BY to do the mitzva.
April 16, 2013 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #946001playtimeMemberubiquitin- we are saying the same thing.
April 16, 2013 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #946002charliehallParticipantOf course not all of halachah was given at Sinai — the rabbinic decrees were in the future.
April 16, 2013 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #946003ubiquitinParticipantTalmud, then I don’t get your question. Not all halacha was given at Sinai. period.
There goes the premise of your question
April 16, 2013 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #946004playtimeMemberubiquitin- There’s Halacha. Then there’s application of Halacha.
April 16, 2013 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #946005Sam2ParticipantWolf, Ubiquitin, etc.: Just replace the words “Sinai” with “Arvos Moav” (which everyone, except the Rambam, agrees to). Then the question still stands.
Talmud: In short, he held that it was a Busha to say like the Geonim and that Chas V’shalom that we could forget so much. He says that Pratei Dinim weren’t given to Moshe Rabbeinu. What was given was the text of the Chumash, a few Halachos L’Moshe MiSinai and Peirushim Hamekubalim Misinai, and all of the Klalim (I think if you count them you get like 365 or something). Then it was up to the Chachamim in every generation to Darshan out according to the rules and vote. Thus, the lack of Machlokes before Hillel and Shamai wasn’t due to there being Nevi’im who could Pasken, it was due to the fact that we had a Sanhedrin and thus could reject certain Shittos with finality. Once we lost that, we could no longer resolve disputes as both ways of Darshening are equally valid. Thus, every Machlokes in Drashah is Eilu V’eilu and we lost the way to reject minority Shittos, thus the Mishnah and Gemara and Midrishei Halchah are full of disputes.
April 16, 2013 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #946006HaLeiViParticipantI think you left out a point. Not just Nevua and Sanhedrin. The Gemara says Kishenismaatu Liban and Kishelo Shimshu Kal Tzarchan, is when Machlokes began. The Rambam learns that when a Talmid properly understands his Rebbe, his attitude and his take on a situation would be exactly like that of his Rebbe.
Once they weren’t Mekabel fully to this degree their view has a flavor of their own. This breeds Machlokes, since each Talmid has his own view and they are not reflecting the one view they recieved together.
April 16, 2013 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #946007playtimeMemberSam- Thanks. Where is this Rambam?
April 17, 2013 12:58 am at 12:58 am #946008Sam2ParticipantIntro to Peirus Hamishnayos, I think.
April 17, 2013 3:47 am at 3:47 am #946009yitayningwutParticipantthe lack of Machlokes before Hillel and Shamai wasn’t due to there being Nevi’im who could Pasken, it was due to the fact that we had a Sanhedrin and thus could reject certain Shittos with finality
This much is mefurash in the Gemara (Sanhedrin 88b).
??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????
Note how it clearly says even before the students of Hillel and Shammai there were disagreements which were ultimately resolved by vote.
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