If not for Mufti (w/ Shukeiri) murdering thousands & secularists on De Haan

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    If not for Mufti (& gang w/ Shukeiri) murdering thousands & secularists on Yakov De Haan …

    What if…

    What if the Mufti al-Husseini
    and his gangs were not successful in assassinating thousands of moderate Arabs (including Ahmad Shukeiri’s hands in helping assassinate his own brother Dr. Anwar Shukeiri for being moderate toward Jews (- on: Thu, 8 June 1939 = 21st of Sivan, 5699 in Acre – Akko) and by some estimates those gangs massacred up to 8,000… (Bitzaron, 1970).

    What if the secular Zionists (Tehomi, Hagana) were not killing Yakov Israel De Haan… (Mon, 30 June 1924 = 28th of Sivan, 5684)

    One wonders…


    The ex-Mufti, Haj Amin al-Husseini was the instigator for the horrific massacres in the 1920s;

    instrumental in the bloody 1936-9 Arab riots;

    infamous for helping the Nazis;

    his incitement with other Palestinians [such as A. Zuaiter and D. al-Miqdadi] Younis Bahri’s radio broadcasts ahead of the Farhoud pogrom – animalistic butchering of men women and children, mass rapes, killing toddlers in front of parents, etc [by fascist Al-Muthanna / Futuwwa, soldiers and mob, pushed by Younis al-Sabawi and S. Shawkat] on Shavuot 5701 – June 1-2 1941;

    his Nov 28 1941 meeting with A.H.;

    his close partnership with H.H.;

    his 1942 tour of concentration camp with al-Gaylani and others;

    1942 – plotting Crematoria in Dotan Valley;

    1943 – preventing Jewish kids to arrive Eretz Yisrael.


    One of the Mufti’s henchmen [1930s-1940s] was Ahmad Al-Shukeiri [Shuqayri / Shukairy] who helped in pro Axis propaganda – had contacted the Germam consul in Jerusalem after the Mufti escaped; rationalized the Holocaust in 1946; had complained that there are “too many Jews in the UN;” had promoted in the UN a Neo-Nazi gang on 30 Nov 1962; in 1964 became first head of PLO; ahead of the Six-Day war, this racist genocidal Islamist had “predicted” that non of them will survive…


    The killing of Yaakov Yisroel De Haan is one of the Haredim’s arguments against draft in IDF .

    However the Mufti ym”s and his continuing hate legacy including in textbooks, is most at the obstacle for PEACE in the ME.


    What if Claus von Stauffenberg had been successful in assassinating Hitler?

    What if.


    The British spent a lot of effort to make sure the above happened. Indeed the whole of British colonial policy was directed at starting the Arab-Israeli conflict. They found plenty of fools, who “fell for it”. They tried the same trick in both Ireland and the Raj (India, which included Pakistan and Bangladesh). It worked perfectly at starting a war, but failed miserably as the locals didn’t come begging Britain to stay.

    If the zionists and the Arab nationalists weren’t fools, the result would have been a single Arab state of all Arabs east of Suez (now made up of Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and the various countries of the Arabian peninsular), probably as a constitutional monarchy under the family that now leads Jordan, with a Jewish population about twice that of Israel (probably fewer European socialist immigrants, but they would have picked up almost all non-secular refugees from what would have been the German-led expulsion of European Jews).



    What nonsense. British colonial policy was not intending to start Arab-Israeli hostilities. They tried to keep the peace for years in Palestine before pulling out because it was impossible to manage the diverse populations and the tensions/conflicts.


    This is one of the rare times I agree with what you post.
    My late FIL Z”L was an officer in the British Police during the mandate, transitioning to the Mishtara upon independence.
    We discussed this topic many times.
    Most westerners just don’t understand that European colonial rulers drew maps and established countries where none had existed. A line in a map cannot unite tribes into a country.
    In countless countries we have seen decades of civil war and genocide after independence.

    I laugh at the mention of Pakistan and Bengladesh above. Lumping two territories separated by thousands of kilometers into one country because they were to be a homeland for Muslims was a joke.


    What if Napoleon would have won the battle of Waterloo?

    What if Ho Chi Minh would have died when he had malaria in his 30s?

    What is the Japanese would not have attacked Pearl Harbor?

    What is Fidel Castro would have died in prison?

    We can “what if” for the next 100 years and nothing will change


    @MarxistParticipant, @akuperma

    The Brits, at first were protecting, then, at times were employing ‘divide and conquer.’

    In addition, I recommend the book, The Rape of Palestine</em, by William Ziff, 1938.


    Actually, the killing of Y. Y. De Haan is also one of the argument points for Haredim not to serve in the draft.

    But the Mufti ym”s ongoing hate legacy (including in Arab media, textbooks brainwashing) is THE obstacle for M.E. peace.


    Marxist: The Brits couldn’t care too bits about the welfare of “Palestine”. The need it to secure control of the seaway to the Raj, which was the “jewel in the crown”. The Brits knew who assassinated De Haan, and never objected. They knew about the 1929 pogroms before they happened, and made a point of encouraging it. Their greatest fear in the 1920s, when the “dice was cast” was that the agreement, acceptable to the Arab’s leaders, the zionists and the hareidim, and previously agreed to by the British, would go into effect, and there would be large powerful and independent Arab state east of Suez. The British Colonial Office played the zionists and the Arab for fools, and were successful at it. What we saw as a pogrom or riots, and the Arabs saw as an uprising, the British saw as an opportunity to maintain their Empire by making sure that the potential trouble-makers were too busy fighting each other rather than fighting the British.

    The “divide and rule” policy was successfully implemented throughout the Empire, including Ireland and India. It was successful in starting conflicts which continue to this very day, but was a total failure at saving the Empire, which dissolved in a matter of months in 1947.

    Avi K

    What does DeHaan’s killing have to do with the IDF? The O.P. has an emuna issue. DeHaan would have failed even if he had lived because he was trying to stop the Geula (for ulterior motives, which are well known). Similarly, the Hashgacha put Rav Kook, who had the right citizenship, in London to lobby for the Balfour Declaration and kept the anti-Zionist German rabbis, who had the wrong citizenship, from going there


    Yaakov de haan was originally a mizrachi, so it’s no surprise that avi will accuse him, a martyr, killed while on a mission from the gadol hador, as selfishly motivated.

    He defected from mizrachi after seeing the sham of its ideology and the many flaws of its leadership.

    Afterwards, to cover up their murder, zionists planted slanderous claims about his personal life. There’s no way that the aidah charedis would have accepted him as a member if he was involved in the things they accuse him of, which the zionists claim he didn’t hide. Rav zonnenfeld would have appreciated his help, but wouldn’t have accepted him the way he did if such things were remotely true.


    Avi, de haan was sent by rav yosef chaim zonnenfeld. Was rav zonnenfeld attempting to “stop the geulah?”

    Who exactly was redeemed? Was it the million sefardim who nostly fell prey to secularism and assimilation, while speaking hebrew? Was it the Yemenites whose payos were chopped off and shipped to wealthy ashkenazim? Was it the jewish women who were almost drafted and brought to an army that is the world’s most immodest and znus-promoting?

    Jews are a lot more redeemed, if anything, in America, where the government does nothing to impinge on our rights to practice yiddishkeit, we don’t live in constant fear of deadly terror attacks, surrounded by hostile neighbors(minor antisemitic incidents notwithstanding)

    Jews are statistically the least safe in Israel, and their rights to practice yiddishkeit are the most tenuous there, totally dependent on which parties are in power at any given time. The only other places which make Jewish life hard are European countries that ban shechitah, but there are ways around it, such as importing.


    Dear Avi.
    It’s not a question of emuna. We do not know the chesbonos of Hashem. However, were it not for Tehomi killing reb Yakov de Haan, maybe a lot of hatred could have been avoided from bnei yishmoel.
    The reason why this murder is monumental , as per the Frum tibur, that have always tried to live in peace.
    Do not forget, that the entire State of Israel is a de Dacto not a De Yure. In the core of Haredim approach. , בדיעבד..

    Of course the pro-Nazi Mufti’s part is great, since 1920 through WW2 and beyond.

    Avi K

    correction: Rav Sonnenfeld wanted unrestricted Jewish immigration.

    Avi K


    1. DeHaan was writing libelous articles in gentile European newspapers. Being that I want my response to be published, I will not denote his motives. They are well-known. Rav Sonnenfeld wanted unlimited Jewish emigration and thought that he could get it by giving up on the idea of statehood. However, the Arabs knew that at some point they would not be able to hold onto control. They never would have agreed. Thus, the Faisal-Weizman Agreement also failed.
    2. If frum Jews had come to EY en masse as Rav Kook urged, Israel would have been a Torah state from the beginning. Instead, it is taking longer.
    3. The rest of your post is nonsense. Shuls in America have police guards. A frum Jew who works in the general job market just might be fired for speaking against toeva. The media constantly attacks Orthodox Judaism. Assimilation is rampant and also affects the frum community.


    1. The State of Israel is a Torah commandment (see Ramban, Mitzvot that Rambam “Forgot”).
    2. As for the hareidן community, Rav Kook explains that this approach made them unable to start the Geula rolling. They were passively waiting for Mashiach to fall from heaven. However, we must do hishtadlut as in everything else. They did not want to revach v’hatzala came from others.
    3.Tell me, would you have advised Yehoshua bןn Nin to try to make peace with the Canaanites? Would you have advised David haMelech to take peaceful steps to avoid the Plishtim’s hatred?


    Avi, of all the twisted rationales given of why most gedolim opposed the state… It’s true that rav zonnenfeld wanted to lift the immigration quotas, but that had nothing to do with his wanting there not to be a state. He and the aidah gedolim all cited the shavuos and holding back the freikeit as the reason.

    Yaakov de haan was not always frum. We don’t mention the past of a baal teshuva, and yes it seems from his writings that before doing teshuva he was involved in bad stuff – so what? He became not only frum, but ensconced in the upper echelons of the strictest sector of frum jews in the world. He had zero reason to do that if he simply wanted to do more aveiros…. that’s counter intuitive.

    Zionists helped publish books of his, written before his teshuvah, which promoted those sins, in hopes that people would not consider him a martyr because of it – it’s a dirty, disgusting thing to not only kill a man but tarnish his name afterwards.

    Saying rav yosef chaim was against the state in order to get the mufti to grant more immigration is like saying we oppose intermarriage because we don’t want jewish money to leave the community. It’s slanderous, and downright twisted.

    If yaakov de haan would have remained a mizrachi, and were killed by a kanoi, im sure you would say he was a martyr.

    Anyways, about chutz laaretz. Yes, security is needed, but in Israel, the jews need protection *from* the police very often. How many jews are killed in America because they’re jewish? Most years, zero. Some years…the most was during the tree of life shooting.

    In israel? Jews are threatened everyday, terrorist attacks happen every year, and rockets are blasted into jewish neighborhoods every week. Israel has to spend more on defense than any other country, because they’re under constant threat of annihilation from its neighbors and Iran.

    Jews in America don’t have to worry about any of that. And assimilation? Most American jews are assimilated from 2 generations ago. They came here without building yeshivos, and that’s what happens – in Israel it’s far worse. The culture is so anti frum that Torah jews are hated by a large amount of chilonim…the fact that chilonim are slightly more traditional than their American counterparts means very little. They’re not frum, they’re not maaminim…so they go to a Seder and refrain from eating while on their phones on yom kipur….every mitzvah is big, but come on…

    And yes, israel holds back intermarriage…in theory. They also encourage it by allowing immigrants who aren’t jewish and then trying to strong arm the rabbanut to allow them to convert if they don’t eat pig and refrain from eating while on their phone on yom kippur.

    Many, many jews internarry without even knowing it, because israel recognizes patrilineal descent. At least in America people who intermarry KNOW what they’re doing.


    I think sephardim are more assimilated in America than in Israel. Non-observant Ashkenazim in T-A are probably similar to their counterparts in US, but at least their children are Jewish and have some hope.


    Dear Avi.
    Rav Kook z”l’s opinion is famous. He was respected by Haredi Rabbis, his opinion was not.
    I hope you don’t really compare Haganah with Tanach / Yehoshua bin Nun…


    Reading through this interesting discussion, I doubt that I’ll ever be able to fully understand Hashem’s ways but that doesn’t and shouldn’t stop me from trying to piece together the pieces of the puzzle that He has put in my hands and make as much sense of them as I can. אין עוד מלבדו שום כוח ורצון בעולם והכל מלא רק אחדותו הפשוט יתברך שמו so Hashem is the One Who has done, is doing, and will do every minute detail of everything that happens. So here are some more pieces that haven’t come into this discussion and I’m interested in the knowledgeable olam’s insights into them.
    1. R’ Amram Blau, ztl, gave an interview a few years before he was niftar in 5735/1975 (published as Mishnas Rebbe Amram), including several interesting points. He was already in his 20s during the few years of De Haan’s period of activity in Yerushalaim and even if he wasn’t yet the major figure he later became, he was probably already an astute observer of events.
    a. The British didn’t like De Haan that much because as a top legal scholar he was able to out argue and outfox the British legal experts and prevent them from doing many of the things they wanted to do.
    b. De Haan advised the Eida HaChareidis and its representatives on the British-run Jerusalem City Council to ally with the Mufti’s faction rather than with the moderate Arab elements who were more willing to cooperate with the Zionists. Rav Hutner, ztl, famously said that in the early days, before the Zionists became dominant, the Mufti got along very well with the Old Yishuv. Said Rav Hutner, it was only after the Zionists took control over Jewish public life and started threatening to throw all the Arabs out of their homes that the Mufti turned against all Jews and did all the terrible things he did.
    c. De Haan arranged for a telegram to be sent [presumably to the Colonial Office in London, R’ Amram didn’t say] protesting against Zionist interference in religious life. This telegram was signed by Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, ztl, and [in R’ Amram’s lashon] להבדיל אלף הבדלות the Mufti and the Pope in Rome. Does anyone know any specifics about this telegram, which R’ Amram said would certainly have appeared in the newspapers of the time?
    2. Concerning De Haan’s personal development, an interesting source is the biography written by Yehuda Meshi Zahav ע”ה (may his neshomo have whatever tikunim it needs) in his early years. I think in there he says that De Haan kept prominently on his desk a sign reading ובא לציון גואל ולשבי פשע ביעקב. Once he met Rav Sonnenfeld he became a totally devoted chassid but even devoted chassidim might not find it so easy to quickly discard all their earlier baggage of thoughts and desires.
    Again, I’m interested in any insights people have concerning these points.


    There is a lot going on here.

    The suggestion that the Mufti developed his hatred for Jews due to the Zionists has definitely been claimed – but has it been proven?

    De Haan’s murder was a tragedy – as was the actions of many of the Zionist leaders during WWII. nothing ca justify this.

    The Zionist leadership bear responsibility for shmading thousands of children, war survivors, eastern immigrants etc..

    Nonetheless a non frum Jew today is far far better off in E Israel -or even the parts that are definitely chu”l such as Eilat – than a non frum Jew in America, has far more chance of his children marrying Jews, being able to read from a siddur, occasionally going to shul
    Although this was not the Zionist intent nonetheless there is an element of truth in this.

    What if questions are unlimited …. I mean what if Achashverosh had not married Esther?

    The Satmar rov was convinced that if not for Zionism mashiach would have long been here; he viewed them as responsible for the holocaust and lack of redemption afterwards.

    Nonetheless, it is possible that if for the aspirations to establish a state there would have been unlimited Jewish immigration, and in turn thousands of lives may have been saved, on the one hand it was undoubtedly orchestrated by God himself; nonetheless there might be Divine Retribution for those who played a role.


    Zushy wrote sense in last paragraph.

    I want to add this quote from Lyn Julius who often writes about the Farhud:

    Palestinian anti-Semitism spilled into the Arab world, JNS, May 14, ’19.

    Exclusionary Palestinian nationalism, fathered by the mufti, was a hybrid creature of racial and religious anti-Semitism.</blockqote>


    Zushy: The Zionist government admits hundreds of thousands of Russian goyim, Ethiopian goyim and other goyim. Many many of them undergo a fake Zionist “geirus”, after which they never keep a single Shabbos and never intended to, thus remaining goyim but now permitted by the Zionist rabbis to marry real Jews.

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