If Trump becomes president, I'm moving to Canada…

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  • #1190602

    yehudayona
    Participant

    One other thing… I find it amazing that any frum Jew can enthusiastically support either of the major party candidates. I can understand those who will hold their nose and vote for the candidate they consider the lesser of the two evils, especially for those who live in swing states. But they are both so antithetical to Torah values that I can’t see how any Torah Jew can be FOR either candidate (as opposed to against the other one). B”H I live in an uncontested state so I can vote against both of them.

    #1190603

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Health….

    I’m an attorney…labeling someone a criminal who has not been convicted of a crime and publishing it on line as you did is libel.

    Yes I’ve heard of Vince Foster and service personnel killed in Libya. I also remember hundreds of marines killed in Beirut under Reagan. If you enlist in the military you go knowingly and willingly putting your life at risk.

    As for a Secretary of State using a private email server: two words Colin Powell. Other words: President George Bush. This is a non-issue constantly brought up by talking heads and empty suits on the Trump campaign.

    I am not convincing you to vote for Clinton, nor would I try, There is no way I’ll be voting for Trump. That said Trump will not win the electoral votes here in CT or in NY. (My prediction). I am not voting for Secretary Clinton because she is a Democrat, I’m voting for her because she is a better choice (IMO) for the USA than Trump.

    I wish we had better choices this year, but as long as elections are financed the way they are, we never will have great choices. As my late father A”L always said: “anyone willing to spend 100 million dollars to chase a $400,000 job has to be getting some personal return for friends and family.” Gone are the days of patrician families such as the Roosevelts who were independently wealthy and dedicated their adult lives to public service, not personal enrichment and power grabbing.

    #1190604

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    CTLawyer: “I’m an attorney…labeling someone a criminal who has not been convicted of a crime and publishing it on line as you did is libel.”

    I’m curious; can someone be arrested for that? What is considered libel legally in general? There must be tons of it going on in cyberspace!

    #1190605

    Health
    Participant

    CTlawyer -“Health….

    I’m an attorney…labeling someone a criminal who has not been convicted of a crime and publishing it on line as you did is libel.”

    Go ahead sue me for her on libel!

    I happened to learn law because of my court cases!

    I’ll counter sue and win! I’m not afraid of your threats!

    From Webster’s:

    “Criminal:

    1: relating to, involving, or being a crime <criminal neglect>

    2 : relating to crime or to the prosecution of suspects in a crime <criminal statistics> <brought criminal action>

    3 : guilty of crime; also : of or befitting a criminal

    4 : disgraceful”

    So Mr. Lawyer – which one did I mean?!?

    “Yes I’ve heard of Vince Foster and service personnel killed in Libya. I also remember hundreds of marines killed in Beirut under Reagan. If you enlist in the military you go knowingly and willingly putting your life at risk.”

    So don’t vote for Reagan! Oh btw, Reagan isn’t running; he’s dead!

    “As for a Secretary of State using a private email server: two words Colin Powell. Other words: President George Bush. This is a non-issue constantly brought up by talking heads and empty suits on the Trump campaign”

    So don’t vote for Powell or Bush! Oh my, they’re Not running!!!

    Typical of DemonCrats, trying to divert the issues, by posting Non-issues!

    #1190606

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Health, are you voting for Trump or against Clinton?

    #1190607

    Health
    Participant

    YY -“Health, are you voting for Trump or against Clinton?”

    I posted the answer to this in the topic called -“Who’s Worse – Trump or Clinton?” Page #3.

    #1190608

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Health

    Webster’s is a layman’s dictionary and is not a standard for trial. I would not be bringing an action on behalf of anyone who you may have libeled. It is not my area of practice.

    A better definition and explanation when the word ‘criminal’ should be used is taken from an edition of Black’s Law Dictionary sitting on my bookshelves:

    criminal

    1) n. a popular term for anyone who has committed a crime, whether convicted of the offense or not. More properly it should apply only to those actually convicted of a crime. Repeat offenders are sometimes called habitual criminals.

    Learning law doesn’t make you a lawyer, only passing the Bar Exam AND being admitted to practice makes you a lawyer.

    You now accuse me of threatening you, That is a boldface LIE on your part. You owe me an apology and a public retraction. I never threatened any action against you.

    BTW>>When one answers a civil suit with a counter-suit one had better be prepared to prove damages. You, who hides behind an internet handle would have no damages for which to seek compensation.

    Your use of DemonCrat sounds like either an uneducated fool or an 11 year old. Sounds like you’ve listened to too much right wing hate radio.

    I’ll not reply to you again, you are not worth my time. You like Trump have been caught lying.

    #1190609

    Abba_S
    Participant

    LU- No you can not be arrested for Libel.

    As to whether Health can be sued by Clinton for libel? She can sue him, but first she has to find him. Proving her case will be hard because as soon as she does every conservative organization will file, a friend of court brief. Everything from Whitewater through Benghazi will be on the table. Health can claim it all depends as to what criminal is (means) and as a Public Figure the bar is higher to prove libel. Does she want all her family scandals revisited. Even if she wins it will cost her millions in legal expenses and she probably wouldn’t collect a dollar. Some of you may think Health is a doctor with a lucrative practice but I doubt it, although I think he makes a good living. She may win the case and the court can award her only 1 dollar. Health also can declare bankruptcy and never pay just like OJ. So the chances of health having to pay is minimal, although he will probably be famous.

    Please Note: I am not an Attorney and you should not use this as legal advice but consult and attorney in your state.

    #1190610

    huju
    Participant

    It would be libelous to call CTLawyer a “criminal,” because he/she is not a public figure. But I believe that persons in the public arena – particularly candidates for high political office – are not entitled to the same protections under the libel laws as CTLawyer, Health and me. And the libel laws are generally not criminal laws, so jail is not a punishment for committing libel. Calling Hillary a criminal, or calling Dopie Donnie a fraud, are not actionable under the laws of defamation because of their status as public figures.

    #1190611

    Health
    Participant

    CTlawyer -“Health

    Webster’s is a layman’s dictionary and is not a standard for trial. I would not be bringing an action on behalf of anyone who you may have libeled. It is not my area of practice.”

    A better definition and explanation when the word ‘criminal’ should be used is taken from an edition of Black’s Law Dictionary sitting on my bookshelves:

    criminal

    1) n. a popular term for anyone who has committed a crime, whether convicted of the offense or not. More properly it should apply only to those actually convicted of a crime. Repeat offenders are sometimes called habitual criminals.”

    That’s funny! Because you’d have to prove that I meant the legal definition and not the layman’s definition for anybody to claim libel!

    Like I said I’m not scared of your threats!

    “Learning law doesn’t make you a lawyer, only passing the Bar Exam AND being admitted to practice makes you a lawyer.”

    But I don’t have too even know law to defend myself against a lawsuit.

    I could defend myself ProSe!

    “You now accuse me of threatening you, That is a boldface LIE on your part. You owe me an apology and a public retraction. I never threatened any action against you.”

    Maybe it was a misunderstanding!

    I thought you were threatening me, that I committed libel.

    You know that claiming that I committed libel, is not your decision, but the Court’s. So I thought you were threatening me, because I surely didn’t ask you for your opinion whether my previous posts were libelous!!!

    #1190612

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Health, you made me work to find that. You said Trump is the lesser of two evils. So why vote for him? I believe you live in a state that’s solidly for Clinton, so your vote for Trump is meaningless. Why not vote for someone you actually respect?

    #1190613

    Health
    Participant

    YY – Maybe you’re right. Btw, who said I’m voting for anyone?

    #1190614

    Softwords
    Participant

    DaasYochid – I’m not joking when I say that your statement may halachicly be considered a Neder requiring you to move to Canada regardless of consequences as a result (like losing your job). By not moving (if your condition is met) you may be transgressing a Isur D’oraita! I strongly recommend seeking a posek (not just any old Rav) to determine if you are required to do Hatarat Nedarim. NO JOKE!

    Just to add: In the future stop mimicking what Goyim do or say. Their ways are not necessarily in line with Torah and can cause you unnecessary agmas nefesh.

    You could have simply said you feel like moving to Canada if such and such happens.

    #1190615

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Why are any of you living in chu’l in the first place?????!!!!! Maybe it’s time to pick up and move to EY! If you are thinking of moving, shouldn’t that be the first place you think of?

    #1190616

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Goyim make nedarim?

    (Agav, this would have been a sh’vuah.)

    #1190617

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1190618

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY: 🙂

    #1190619

    Softwords
    Participant

    DaasYochid – I stand corrected. You are right. It is a Shavua, not a Neder. However, your situation is worse being you made a Shavua. See the following quote from rabbikaganoff.com:

    “There is a halachic difference between performing hataras nedarim to release someone from the obligation he created with a neder, and between performing hatarah after someone recited a shavua. Whereas in most instances one should arrange to release someone from a neder, one annuls a shavua only under extenuating circumstances (Rama, Yoreh Deah 203:3; Rambam end of Hilchos Shavuos).”

    I HIGHLY RECOMMEND SPEAKING TO A POSEK ABOUT WHETHER YOUR WORDS ARE CONSIDERED A SHAVUA OR NOT.

    Quote: “Goyim make nedarim?”

    Answer: We see in the Torah that both Avimelech and Paroah made Shavuos, so the fact that they make them is a non-issue. I assume what you are really asking is if they are required to fulfill them. GOOD QUESTION. The answer is not that simple.

    However, here is a quote from Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld (dafyomi . co.il):

    “This approach is also suggested by the MISHNEH L’MELECH (Hilchos Melachim 10:7). The Mishneh l’Melech adds the examples of Avraham and Yitzchak, who made Avimelech make an oath. It is evident from there that Nochrim are commanded to keep their promises.

    However, what is the specific commandment, according to this approach, that obligates Nochrim to fulfill their oaths? After all, it is not one of the seven Mitzvos of Bnei Noach. The MESHECH CHOCHMAH (Shemos 20:7) explains that although there is no explicit Mitzvah that requires Nochrim to fulfill their oaths, this obligation is an obvious moral responsibility that falls in the category of a “Mitzvah Sichlis,” a logical Mitzvah. Since it is a “Mitzvah Sichlis,” a Nochri receives a punishment from Shamayim for violating his oath, even though Beis Din cannot punish him (as it is not one of the seven Mitzvos of Bnei Noach). This reasoning is also alluded to by the Mishneh l’Melech (ibid.).”

    If you want to read the whole thing do a Google search for “A NOCHRI’S OBLIGATION TO KEEP HIS WORD”.

    BTW – as far as your comment to move to Israel, perhaps Hashem caused you to start this post just so you could start REALLY considering moving to Israel and make the “theoretical” into “reality”. It doesn’t come easy, however, so start davening that Hashem give you Siyata D’shmiya.

    #1190621

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Please ask Rabbi Kaganoff if a statement clearly meant to be rhetorical (in this case, humorous), not literal, is viewed nevertheless as literal.

    Also ask him whether keyboard strokes appearing as letters on a screen have the same halachic status as speech.

    No, I didn’t mean to ask if goyim need to fulfill their nedarim, jut that you said I made a neder, and it was copying goyim, so I was wondering if making nedarim is considered a goyishe thing.

    #1190622

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    Moving to Canada when our Emperor gets elected?

    Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

    #1190623

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Amongst other things, don’t you have to say it b’lashon neder or b’lashon shvuah? I’m far from an expert in the topic, but I did have a sheilah in this area once, and I’m almost positive that’s what I was told.

    I also thought that if it was clearly a joke, it wouldn’t be an issue. If it would be, most people would be in trouble.

    Also, if it doesn’t have to be b’lashon neder, we would all be “over” on it all the time. “I’ll be there in 5 minutes.” “I’ll see you tomorrow.” etc.

    Of course, there is probably a “maaleh’ to being extremely careful with all of one’s words, but you don’t give someone “mussar” for not being on a higher level (especially if almost no one in the world is on that level) as long as they are not performing an outright clear-cut issur.

    Granted, the Gedolim are probably on that level, and I can understand if you thought that DY is one of the Gedolim and hence, should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. THAT was probably what you meant to say :)!

    #1190624

    Softwords
    Participant

    DaasYochid – 1) I do not know Rabbi Kaganoff any more than you do. You have good valid questions, but they require a Posek to determine. I would not rely on assumptions even if those assumptions are logical. Not every logic is followed (Ex. Two people see a murder taking place. One sees A stab B. The other sees A pull the knife out of B. They can not be witnesses even though logic would imply they could.)

    2) You mentioned “moving to Canada”. You didn’t just come up with that concept on your own. You heard that concept from Goyim and copied them. We all know how many people cried wolf when Bush was running. Unfortunately, none of them to my knowledge kept their word. A shame.

    #1190625

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You are writing in English. The English language was invented by goyim.

    You are on a computer or other device which was developed by goyim.

    You know of people crying wolf when Bush was elected from news reports written by goyim.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if your shirt was made by goyim.

    #1190626

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Softwords – You are only allowed to give someone mussar if you KNOW that they are doing something that is clearly assur. If you are not sure, you should not give mussar until you look into it and are sure.

    Using an expression that you heard from goyim is vadei not assur, and something that everyone does. Now using the english language might be a problem, but since we are all doing that, you can’t really give someone mussar for it.

    #1190627

    Softwords
    Participant

    Now you two are just acting silly.

    My only point was to bring to DaasYochid’s attention that he may have created a problem for himself and that he should confirm with a Rav whether he indeed needs to worry or not.

    DaasYochid – It was not my intention to embarrass you or to insult you. However, I see that my words did apparently hurt your feelings. Therefore, I apologize.

    BTW – as far as the English, you are right. If not for the fact that we live in a B’dieved situation Bizmaneinu we shouldn’t be speaking or writing in English. For centuries Jews spoke their own language, both Sefardim and Ashkenazim. Nu, what can we do? We’re forced to deal with the times. However, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try as much as possible to prevent them from affecting us as little as possible. That’s what I meant earlier. I didn’t mean to Chas v’Shalom say that you act Goyish. If you understood me that way, then please accept my apologies.

    #1190628

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Now you two are just acting silly.”

    Huh? That’s both insulting and random. Neither I nor DY said anything that was the slightest bit silly. What I was trying to say was that I thought that the way you expressed yourself was offensive. I was TRYING to say it in a nice way.

    I see now that you didn’t mean for it to come out the way that it did, but I think it should have been expressed differently. I also really don’t think that anything should have been said at all if you are not sure if there is a halachic issue, especially since this is something that everyone does and is very mekubal.

    #1190629

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Softwords, I was not offended. I was trying to point out to you why you were wrong on both issues.

    LU, thank you.

    #1190630

    benignuman
    Participant

    Huju is correct. Health, you don’t need to worry about a libel suit.

    #1190631

    mortychai
    Member

    Regrettably, you’re not going anywhere.

    Where is your Yiddeshe kop??

    #1190632

    Health
    Participant

    benignuman -“Huju is correct. Health, you don’t need to worry about a libel suit”

    Did you read my post post? I wasn’t exactly worried.

    #1190633

    A midwest talk show host said yesterday that if Clinton wins He’ll plan on moving

    He told a canadian caller it will be someplace other than Canada

    “Who would want to be in a place where if you say almost anything, you could accused of a Hate crime?!”

    #1190634

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What’s the exchange rate?

    #1190635

    Presently in Toronto

    Need an address?

    #1190636

    Avi K
    Participant

    Softwords, to be a neder he must have meant and said it in the form of a neder (e.g. konem li beiti b’Artzit HaBrit”). It might have been a shevua exceptthat that also needs spech. Writing does not count (http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14656&st=&pgnum=40). Even if it did, it might be enough to go for thirty days as that is the amount of time he would have to stay before being required to put up a mezzuzah.

    Time, besides, there is a requirement to end every sentence with “eh”.

    #1190637

    mw13
    Participant

    IDK what the exchange rate is now but I would exchange now anyways, seeing as the USD is about to fall off a cliff…

    Anyway, did you hear that the Government of Canada’s immigration website crashed due to high traffic? No, but seriously – I just tried it and it’s still down (at ten to 2 AM).

    #1190638

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    English was invented by goyim? How do you know it was not one of the languages that Hashem created during the Dor Haflagah?

    #1190639

    Avi K
    Participant

    CTl, Hillary is definitely a public figure so the standard for a libel suit is very high. She must prove knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth. Of course, she must also prove that she was damaged in some way by the statement. As for the sense in which Health used “criminal”, as you admit that he is a layman it should be fairly obviously that he used the term in laymen’s language.

    #1190640

    cute10
    Member

    find so move, pack your bags and go move where you want. why do we need to know you are moving away bec. trump won! do whats best for you! if ppl are moving I hope they prep before the election since they are moving.

    #1190641

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Can everyone just come move to Eretz Yisrael already where you all belong? America is not our country anyhow and Trump is not our president, and Yidden shouldn’t be so obsessed over American politics anyhow, imho.

    #1190642

    start packing now even if trump won, this entire country is about to go down.

    save yourself now before its too late & make aliya. see you at the airport with nefesh b’nefesh

    #1190643

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    MA, when is your aliya date?

    #1273060

    yitzyk
    Participant

    So what’s the bottom line on this? Do we get an update? Did DaasYochid keep his promise and move to Canada?

    From the term ‘moving to Canada’ it sounded like he didn’t already live there. Plus if he did, what big difference would it make to him who is president of the USA?

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