August 23, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #598854
If you ask a rabbi a shaila and he gives you what turns out to be an invalid psak (i.e. he was matir something that is assur), do you get aveiros for having followed his ruling? Does he get aveiros for all the times you did what was assur? Do you need to do teshuva? Can you even follow a bad psak? Who can correct a bad psak?August 23, 2011 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #801662
It’s a very good question. It’s related to the question of whether when the Beis Din Hagadol issues a mistaken ruling and they must bring a ?? ???? ???, does the rest of klal yisroel still have to bring personal ?????? I believe that that is a machlokes rishonim and if I’m not mistaken R’ Chaim handels it, though I don’t have seforim in front of me. Bear in mind, however, that in your scenario it seems much more likely that the person following the ruling is closer to a classic shogeg than the case I mentioned, because our rabbanim do not have the authority to make something halacha to the extent that it would be included in ?? ????; only the Beis Din Hagadol does.
If something is truly a bad psak, you certainly may not follow it. Though if a person is ???? ?????? and he has a ???? ????? you can certainly rely on him, even if he’s made a mistake in the past. Everyone makes mistakes.August 23, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #801663oomisParticipant
Isn’t it supposed to be that once you ask a shailah and a reliable rov paskens, the p’sak becomes your halacha (for that instance)?August 23, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #801664nitpickerParticipant
Not so simple. Who is the rav to you? Do you always rely on him?
Has the psak been reliably proven wrong? ( I mean proven. for example, he forgot a ruling in shulchan aruch and does not have an explanation as to why he ruled differently).
more such ifs could be posed.August 23, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #801665
You make a good point.
What you are referring to is a very specific, interesting rule, that isn’t unanimously accepted. The essence of it is that once you submit your question to the rav and he says “assur” it is as if a neder was placed on the item in question, and even if it turns out he made a mistake the item remains assur like any neder. This rule therefore has many specific qualifications, if you hold of it. First, it must be a question on an item, because a neder is only “chal” on an item. It can’t be a question like “Can I do this on Shabbos?” Second, it only applies when the rav says assur, not when he says mutar, because the essence of this rule is that it is like a neder – a neder can tell you to abstain from something mutar, but it cannot tell you that you may eat something which is assur. Third, the issur only applies to the person who asked and the rav who was asked and the specif item that was asked about, for the same reason. And possibly a few more limitations.
Be that as it may, the only ones who have the authority to take something which is not halacha and make it halacha are the Beis Din Hagadol, which we don’t have now. On their rulings the Torah says ?? ????. Since we don’t have anyone with the authority to “make” halacha, all our rabbanim really are are people we trust. We have every right to trust them, because they have studied Torah and are on the level of properly figuring out the halacha, but unfortunately in our times we don’t have the authority to establish halacha as it was when they had the Beis Din Hagadol.August 23, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #801666metrodriverMember
On the one hand it looks like the concept of Appeal does not exist in Halacha. Where a Din Torah is concerned, one has a choice to reject a particular Beis Din ??? ??? in favor of another, more experienced or more reputable one. But after the fact, there’s no way to appeal unless you can find that the first B”D made a fundamental error in hearing the testimony or in a Halachic ruling. But there is a statement in Talmud which infers that under certain conditions a Second Bais Din (Rabbinical Court)can vacate an order of the First Court. ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??????. which implies that if these conditions (Being more prominent and having a greater number of Rabbis on the board) are met, they could vacate the verdict of the lower court.August 23, 2011 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #801667HealthParticipant
yitayningwut – I asked you a question in the topic -“I’m hungry”.August 23, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #801668
Health – Going to your thread now.August 23, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #801669Sam2Participant
It really depends on the type of Shaila. If it’s something that requires a real Halachic analysis and Shikkul Hada’as and there are equally valid opinions on both sides, then you must stick with the P’sak or your Rebbe Muvhak or the Rav you pick. If the Rebbe/Posek/Rav answers the Shaila by saying “The Mishnah Berurah says X” and he misquoted the Mishnah Berurah then you follow what the MB actually says and not what the Rav “Paskened”.August 23, 2011 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #801670adorableParticipant
i thought that you are ok if you follow the advice of a competent rav but he is the one that will suffer if he over looked something and have a wrong psak.August 24, 2011 2:52 am at 2:52 am #801671
Can someone rely on a psak issued to another person, if he has an equivalent situation? (If not, what are responsa seforim for?)August 24, 2011 4:31 am at 4:31 am #801672Abba bar AristotleParticipant
Adorable: You are correct if you have made the proper choice in asking that Rav.
Hacham: Rav Moshe Feinstein was known to have given different psaks to different people for essentially the same question. One of his talmidim told me that in each case there were special details that made him paskin differently. This is why he writes in his introduction that his responsa should not be used to poskin – only to help enlighten Rabbonim as to how to poskin.August 24, 2011 4:52 am at 4:52 am #801673ronrsrMember
what’s the return policy on a psak?August 24, 2011 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #801674ToiParticipant
my rebbe told me that r mohes tshuva to make tea on shabbos in a kli shlishi was given to an old sick woman and shouldnt be followed for the hamoin am. just an example.August 24, 2011 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #801675am yisrael chaiParticipant
There’s a well known story of 2 rabbonim who paskened differently on the status of a chicken.
When they were both served the meal, the rav who assured the chicken encountered an “out of this world” experience: the chicken kept falling off his fork. The rav who matired it had no problem.
For one rav it was assur to it, for the other it was permissible.
So there’s no such thing as a “bad” psak, just a different one.
There’s also the story how this one rav was correct and the others were incorrect, yet ???? accepted the majority’s decision.
(I’m rushing, so if someone can embellish that would be great)
???? ?? ????? ??? and ???? ????? ???? ????? ??-??.August 24, 2011 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #801676tobgMember
Whats the point of your example? there were many poskim before R’ Moshe that even allowed kli sheni in some cases and for sure kli shlishi.August 24, 2011 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #801677yahudMember
y dont u ask ur dayan all these questions ?August 24, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #801678ToiParticipant
i was illustrating what someone said above,no cause for concern.August 24, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #801679adorableParticipant
the topic of this thread makes no sense to me. no psak is BAD it might just not make sense to you or seem right or it can be that the situation was misread… but how can it be bad?August 24, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #801680Sam2Participant
Adorable: P’sakim can be bad. Even big Talmidei Chachamim make mistakes or forget things sometimes. This thread is asking what to do in such an uncommon situation.August 24, 2011 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #801681yael2Member
Shouldn’t a person confront his rave and maybe ask for an explanation before outrightly going against his personal psak? I know we don’t want to be over an averah but does this seem somewhat chutzpadik? Maybe he knows something we don’t know. Or maybe he is following the peak of his rebbe?August 25, 2011 4:25 am at 4:25 am #801682shlishiMember
And how, exactly, will the recipient of a bad psak be able to assess that the psak was indeed bad?August 25, 2011 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #801683
A bigger Talmid Chochom could so inform him.August 25, 2011 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #801684ootinnyMember
if anyone heard of the song ‘if u had a bad day’ doen’t u just want to put ‘if you get a bad psak’ to the same tune!!! so catchy!!
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