If you vote democrat

I’ve always wanted to be part of a tuvya marriage. I guess I’ll vote democrat.
Shkoyach for the insight.

Helping people survive is also part of morality. Some peoole don’t make enough money to be able to pay their mortgage, health care and tuition. The Republicans only care in helping the corporations by driving up the deficit and the national debt. For others sink or swim.

“Helping people survive is also part of morality. Some peoole don’t make enough money to be able to pay their mortgage, health Care and tuition. The Republicans only care in helping ….”

50,000,000 slaughtered babies is far less moral
The stupid policies of CLinton caused the mortgage crisis 10 years ago.
The Republicans prefer school choice.

Trump is very far from a bastion of morality. And to answer Joseph before he starts making lomdishe chillukim, Trump proudly admitted to arayos which are included in the sheva mitzvos b’nei Noach. In many ways, he’s a big menuval.

I may very well end up voting for him because he will (again) be the lesser of two evils, but please, let’s not pretend there’s such a clear and obvious moral superiority here.

“You are fooling yourself when it comes to abortion. No one does abortion for the sake of it. The rich will travel wherever it is allowed and the poor will endanger themselves.”

If it helps you to sleep at night to believe that abortion policy is immaterial, then sleep well.

But to your point, even if you outlaw something, there will be some who get around or break the law. That still is not a reason to permit something so heinous.

Mdg,
Perfect.
Most posters here seem to have a hard time with that concept

Reb Eliezer, I’m really shocked that you support abortion being legal.

Joseph, more Democratic support will eliminate abortiions. No one said it is good but mistakes happen and they will abort if they cannot support them. We should encourage to give up children for adoption. Late abortiion should be outlawed. The poor endanger themselves when it is not legal and rich will go to a place where it is legal.

“Abortion and toeiva are annoying but aren’t our major problem.” That statement is true regarding abortion, but it’s completely false regarding toeiva. If you learn a lot of Chumash – or study history; just research what they hid from the public about what they found in Pompeii – you come to understand that one of the small number of things that Hashem is highly intolerant of is a breakdown of the moral order. When it goes too far, He steps in and when He does, it isn’t pretty. You can rely on the fact that the toeiva movement is/will be far, far worse for this country – and potentially Israel – than abortion has ever been, if they don’t put a stop to it.

I believe that this country has a lot to gain from any of the democratic candidates. True they will wreck the economy and will probably not get elected for a second term, but the healthcare reform they implement will stay as it’ll be so much better than what we have now.

This posting is your monthly Public service announcement brought to you by the anti abortion troll posters who believe that Jews can only vote for candidates that oppose legal abortion.
It has also been brought to you by the republican party to force all Jews to vote republicans or else.
I can’t wait for next months trolling.

The Supreme court of the US has not changed it’s opinion since 1973.
It is still legal for Torah Jews in America who have a Orthodox Rabbinically approved valid heter to get an abortion in the US

Ubiq
Where is it permitted in Torah sources please?

@kluger
R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank
The Shita that allows for abbortion is based on a tosefos. R’ Moshe held it to be Retzicha, and as the Posek Hador in america that became the accepted view, but there are many cholkim. There are even Rabbanim, who are mainstream for the Yeshiva Velt, who matir in certain cases, following R’ T P Franks opinion…
For the cholkim on R’ Moshe, it still is assur, just not retzicha which allows for heterim in certain circumstances much more so than R’ Moshe.
R’ Mordechai becher has a nice shiur on this….

“The prohibition is not having a certificate of marriage .” The Midrash Rabbah says not like you. It clearly states that the reason for the Mabul was that they began to make marriage contracts between men and between men and animals. It’s true delusion to argue for acceptance of toeiva, unless you’re not bothered by the cataclysm that certainly follows in its wake.

Ubiq
Mishna Ohalos 7:7
There are only 6 mishnayos in that perek.
But OK
The sixth one says
והָאִשָּׁה שֶׁהִיא מַקְשָׁה לֵילֵד, מְחַתְּכִין {יח} אֶת הַוָּלָד בְּמֵעֶיהָ וּמוֹצִיאִין אוֹתוֹ אֵבָּרִים אֵבָרִים, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁחַיֶּיהָ קוֹדְמִין לְחַיָּיו. יָצָא רֻבּוֹ, אֵין נוֹגְעִין בּוֹ, שֶׁאֵין דּוֹחִין נֶפֶשׁ מִפְּנֵי נָפֶשׁ:
In other words
When the fetus is still inside and the mothers life is threatened you can kill the fetus
Once the fetus is mostly out aka partial birth abortion and certainly post birth abortion, you must let the mother die for we don’t push aside one life for another.

So not sure how this is germane. Any honest poster here knows we are discussing abortions of convinience .
It’s telling that you have to resort to underhanded sleigh of word to back your position here. You usually are much more honest in your postings

KY
“When the fetus is still inside and the mothers life is threatened you can kill the fetus”

Yep
Thus in repsonse to the question
““Reb Eliezer, I’m really shocked that you support abortion being legal.”

I replied ” Your’e shocked that a yid takes the Torah’s view ?”

The Torah allows abortion. period. full stop. (As explained this is not akin to the Torah allows chazir (if life is in danger)” it is more akin to “The Torah allows amputations*” This does NOT mean the torah allows abortion in all cases rch”l, much like the Torah doesn’t allow amputations in all cases
As to the specific instances where the Torah allows it, of course need to be decided by a qualified posek, not by the Supreme court nor by congress

(* I used heart surgeries earlier, I think amputation is a better anaalogy. Plus it fits with the Gemaras’ expression “uber yerech imo” )

Wow ubiq hope you didn’t hurt yourself stretching there.
The Torah allows coffee too.
Only thing is that’s not the conversation we are having here.
The conversation is not if abortion is EVER OK. It’s about if abortion is ALWAYS OK.
So far you keep talking about some random times that it’s allowed.
No the Torah does not allow abortions
It allows saving a life.
It allows eating pork to save a life
It allows certain abortions to save a life
It allows fire on shabbos to save a life
So what.
The opposition to the democrat party in this thread is due to the blanket allowance of abortion without cause.
Please respond to that

Dy
Trump is very far from a bastion of morality. And to answer Joseph before he starts making lomdishe chillukim, Trump proudly admitted to arayos which are included in the sheva mitzvos b’nei Noach.
Really? Which did he admit to?
Touching by a goy ,is not arayos.

Point of information ‘partial birth abortion’ medically known as intact dilation and extraction of a fetus with a heartbeat was outlawed in 2003.

“It’s about if abortion is ALWAYS OK.”
Then you are having a different conversation.
Note you joned the conversation after me, so if you switched the conversation adn didnt tell me, thats on you.

You said “It allows saving a life.”
Several of the sources are not about what we would call “saving a life”
not The tzitz eliezer nor the Yaavetz. Nor fetal reduction (which is not “Exceptional at al)

“THE QUESTION HERE IS ABOUT ABORTION ON DEMAND. not fetal reduction”
what question?

“Does rsza allow these???”
Nope
ציץ אליעזר? נשמת אברהם? Other פוסקים ?
Nope

No?
correct.

“The democrat party feels these are a woman’s right. And to stop her is anti woman.”
Ok so?

“I don’t know how many more times I need to write this.”
None, I got it and that was never in dispute.

Stop coming back with
Fetal reduction
Mothers life at risk
Unviable fetus
Severely deformed fetus”

I won’t unless its warranted. So If you say abortion is murder Iwill say it sint if you say abortion is not allowed I will say it is in certain cases. I’m not sure what your issue is .
And why wouldnt I ocme back with those. Those probably account for 00 of cases where Frum women seek abortions. I’m not sure how 100% of cases can be deemed irrelevant

CY
“I don’t think it’s מותר for the doctor, it’s only for the mother”
depends on the situation.

“We apply the concept סומק טפי (sorry if I misspelled something)”
To what case ?

Ubiq
You seem a bit confused here so let me give you the relevant posts in chronological order as listed here. (you can always go back and check to make sure I’m not leaving out anything important or misrepresenting.

Op.

You are voting for a party that is actively advocating for abortion and tuvya marriages. There is no sugar coating the fact that you are the Hellenist b’zman ha’zeh…

(note, no mention of abortion in extenuating circumstances. Not opening a discussion on the possibility of abortion in Jewish law. Rather a condemnation on voting democrat, specifically due to two of the parties platforms. One of which is abortion rights)

I am the twelfth commenter on this thread. You are the twenty first. I’m not sure which number system has twenty one before twelve, but I never learned that one, so I would consider that you came into this conversation after me.

Then came this
As a response to a comment from r Eliezer
50,000,000 slaughtered babies is far less moral
The stupid policies of CLinton caused the mortgage crisis 10 years ago.
The Republicans prefer school choice.

To which r Eliezer responded

February 19, 2020 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm#1833327REPLY
Reb EliezerParticipant
You are fooling yourself when it comes to abortion. No one does abortion for the sake of it. The rich will travel wherever it is allowed and the poor will endanger themselves.

To which Josef responded

Reb Eliezer, I’m really shocked that you support abortion being legal.

Which engendered your comment that r Eliezers they is in line with the Torah, whereupon I asked where exactly do you have a basis for such an outlandish claim.

Follow it through

Op says democrats are awful because they glorify the right for abortions (which is clearly referring to all abortions not just fetal reduction ET Al)
R E says republicans are worse because they don’t care about anybody

To which mdg says 50,000 abortions (that’s fetal reductions?? 50,000?)are worse than whatever r e is claiming about
republicans

Upon which Josef expressed surprise that r e would support legalizing abortions (clearly, follow along now, the abortions we’ve been discussing, meaning ALL abortions including the majority of them which are just convenience)

To which you said it’s the Torah view
And that’s where I challenged you to provide a source.

The abortion part of this thread clearly was discussing immoral abortion on demand, when you came barreling in claiming that’s the Torah position.
If anyone changed the conversation it was you.

Monsey Yid,
I know that midrash and it is shrecklech scary.
But, there were other reasons for the mabul that are not treated with the same mindset.
For example – Gezel. Even a פחות משוה פרוטה . Is a “white collar criminal” allowed to be elected ?
And זרע לבטלה . And ע״ז.
The US is full with these other aveiros also. We are living in galus. May Moshiach come speedily.

PS. לכאורה the pshat in the medrash is that not only was the toevah not prohibited but they went so fat as to also codify into law to allow marriage.
To just disallow the marriage part , but to never even try to disallow the actual toevah, is not enough. Maybe Jews should only live in countries with Sharia law.

Wow.
Tons to plod through
Basically you are willfully Mischaracterizing the conversation.
It’s about (based on the op) the evils of the democrat party line.
Their position is all abortion is a woman’s right.
Not halaachicly sanctioned abortion
When r Eliezer expresses support for their position, that’s what he is supporting.
Abortion for the sake of abortion means I want to have an abortion so I can say I had an abortion. Sort of like crossing it off a bucket list. That’s what r Eliezer said nobody does. (Thoth in not sure how he knows that, and that is legal and protected too, so it’s really part of the conversation anyway)
Abortion for necessity in the context of this thread means that there is a rational for it
Even as I mentioned that I should fit into my prom dress
Remember this thread is not about halachik abortion it’s about democrats position on abortion rights.
(according to you, r Eliezer dropped in an oblique reference to halachik abortion in middle of a conversation about the democrats position on abortion and he did it in code so only you would understand the reference)

Not sure why I can’t kill the guy … it’s just an abortion.”
Its not. (and you say I’m confused? why can’t you defend your position without saying things that arent true? )

So explain the difference between killing
A fully healthy fetus a week before its due date
A newborn
A fifty year old person

Maybe then I’ll be able to understand some of your posts.