If you vote democrat

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  • #1832948
    Resident Mortal
    Participant

    You are voting for a party that is actively advocating for abortion and tuvya marriages. There is no sugar coating the fact that you are the Hellenist b’zman ha’zeh…

    #1833256
    devny
    Blocked

    I’ve always wanted to be part of a tuvya marriage. I guess I’ll vote democrat.
    Shkoyach for the insight.

    #1833255
    akuperma
    Participant

    Abortion and toeiva are annoying but aren’t our major problem. If the goyim want to kill their own kids, it doesn’t affect us. We never exactly looked up to them as role models.

    The Democratic policies in many areas will hurt politically unconnected minorities, religious groups, parents who want to control the raising and education of their own children, etc. They favor an economy controlled by big corporations such as the FANG companies (that tend to be unwelcoming to cultural minorities), with everyone else being doomed to life on the dole at best (that’s what “guaranteed income is”). And their anti-Israel policies will destabilize the Middle East and have serious consequences for the Jews in Eretz Yisrael.

    #1833270
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Helping people survive is also part of morality. Some peoole don’t make enough money to be able to pay their mortgage, health care and tuition. The Republicans only care in helping the corporations by driving up the deficit and the national debt. For others sink or swim.

    #1833325
    jdf007
    Participant

    Bunch of open anti-semites. Except for one newcomer who I thought was supposed to be a so-called Republican. But even so, I have to question him for the company he is now keeping if he won the nomination.

    #1833331
    MDG
    Participant

    “Helping people survive is also part of morality. Some peoole don’t make enough money to be able to pay their mortgage, health Care and tuition. The Republicans only care in helping ….”

    50,000,000 slaughtered babies is far less moral
    The stupid policies of CLinton caused the mortgage crisis 10 years ago.
    The Republicans prefer school choice.

    #1833327
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    You are fooling yourself when it comes to abortion. No one does abortion for the sake of it. The rich will travel wherever it is allowed and the poor will endanger themselves.

    #1833339
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Trump is very far from a bastion of morality. And to answer Joseph before he starts making lomdishe chillukim, Trump proudly admitted to arayos which are included in the sheva mitzvos b’nei Noach. In many ways, he’s a big menuval.

    I may very well end up voting for him because he will (again) be the lesser of two evils, but please, let’s not pretend there’s such a clear and obvious moral superiority here.

    #1833345
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Devny,

    Is that the name of your future chosson?

    #1833359
    MDG
    Participant

    “You are fooling yourself when it comes to abortion. No one does abortion for the sake of it. The rich will travel wherever it is allowed and the poor will endanger themselves.”

    If it helps you to sleep at night to believe that abortion policy is immaterial, then sleep well.

    But to your point, even if you outlaw something, there will be some who get around or break the law. That still is not a reason to permit something so heinous.

    #1833374
    MDG
    Participant

    ” Trump is very far from a bastion of morality. ”

    I view Trump as someone who knows good from bad, but has a hard time choosing the right thing because of desires or arrogance. On the other hand, I see that Democrats have a completely skewed version of right and wrong.

    #1833383
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Mdg,
    Perfect.
    Most posters here seem to have a hard time with that concept

    #1833385
    ruvain
    Participant

    the pro lifers have such a big deal with abortions but dont have a problem putting people to death without witnesses nor proper evidence. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

    #1833392
    Joseph
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, I’m really shocked that you support abortion being legal.

    #1833386
    1
    Participant

    You’re 100% right. You gotta love the braindead lib rebuttal of Trump isn’t moral when their party supports Late Abortion.

    #1833411
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, more Democratic support will eliminate abortiions. No one said it is good but mistakes happen and they will abort if they cannot support them. We should encourage to give up children for adoption. Late abortiion should be outlawed. The poor endanger themselves when it is not legal and rich will go to a place where it is legal.

    #1833423
    MDG
    Participant

    “the pro lifers have such a big deal with abortions but dont have a problem putting people to death without witnesses nor proper evidence. ”

    1 million innocent babies vs a few hundred quite possibly guilty adults. No comparison.

    Besides an aino yehudi court can rely on Umdena, IIRC.

    #1833450
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    “Abortion and toeiva are annoying but aren’t our major problem.” That statement is true regarding abortion, but it’s completely false regarding toeiva. If you learn a lot of Chumash – or study history; just research what they hid from the public about what they found in Pompeii – you come to understand that one of the small number of things that Hashem is highly intolerant of is a breakdown of the moral order. When it goes too far, He steps in and when He does, it isn’t pretty. You can rely on the fact that the toeiva movement is/will be far, far worse for this country – and potentially Israel – than abortion has ever been, if they don’t put a stop to it.

    #1833456
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Devny, you can’t marry Tuvya if you’re married to Joseph!

    #1833507
    [email protected]
    Participant

    I believe that this country has a lot to gain from any of the democratic candidates. True they will wreck the economy and will probably not get elected for a second term, but the healthcare reform they implement will stay as it’ll be so much better than what we have now.

    #1833519
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Reb Eliezer, I’m really shocked that you support abortion being legal.”

    Your’e shocked that a yid takes the Torah’s view ?

    #1833570
    jackk
    Participant

    This posting is your monthly Public service announcement brought to you by the anti abortion troll posters who believe that Jews can only vote for candidates that oppose legal abortion.
    It has also been brought to you by the republican party to force all Jews to vote republicans or else.
    I can’t wait for next months trolling.

    The Supreme court of the US has not changed it’s opinion since 1973.
    It is still legal for Torah Jews in America who have a Orthodox Rabbinically approved valid heter to get an abortion in the US

    #1833572
    jackk
    Participant

    Regarding Toeva, what do you want the republicans to do ?
    The prohibition is not having a certificate of marriage . The prohibition is the act itself. And the prohibition for men is different than women.
    Should we throw them all into jail or kill them? If you want that, please move to Saudi Arabia.

    #1833576
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Where is it permitted in Torah sources please?

    #1833609
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Where is it permitted in Torah sources please?”

    Sure

    Mishna Ohalos 7:7
    Rambam rotzeiach 1:9
    tzitz Eliezer 9:51, 13:102, 14:109
    yaavetz 43

    #1833656
    chash
    Participant

    @kluger
    R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank
    The Shita that allows for abbortion is based on a tosefos. R’ Moshe held it to be Retzicha, and as the Posek Hador in america that became the accepted view, but there are many cholkim. There are even Rabbanim, who are mainstream for the Yeshiva Velt, who matir in certain cases, following R’ T P Franks opinion…
    For the cholkim on R’ Moshe, it still is assur, just not retzicha which allows for heterim in certain circumstances much more so than R’ Moshe.
    R’ Mordechai becher has a nice shiur on this….

    #1833658
    Resident Mortal
    Participant

    Ubiq

    All those examples you are giving is when the life of the mother is threatened not when the mother doesn’t want to give birth to the child. Its even assur to have an abortion when you know the child will be born with a heart defect.

    If you want to eat chazer and advocate abortion (which is mutter when you will die if you don’t) then go ahead just be honest with yourself that both aure assur even though you can find examples of of both being mutter in crazy circumstances.

    #1833668
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    “The prohibition is not having a certificate of marriage .” The Midrash Rabbah says not like you. It clearly states that the reason for the Mabul was that they began to make marriage contracts between men and between men and animals. It’s true delusion to argue for acceptance of toeiva, unless you’re not bothered by the cataclysm that certainly follows in its wake.

    #1833685
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RM

    “All those examples you are giving is when the life of the mother is threatened ”

    Not quite (though depends how you define “life of the mother is threatened )

    The yaavetz is in the case of a mamzer (though I dont think this is widely accepted but is used as a snif )
    The Tzitz Eliezer 13:102 is about Tay sachs , this is accepted, but not as late as he allows .

    #1833684
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Mishna Ohalos 7:7
    There are only 6 mishnayos in that perek.
    But OK
    The sixth one says
    והָאִשָּׁה שֶׁהִיא מַקְשָׁה לֵילֵד, מְחַתְּכִין {יח} אֶת הַוָּלָד בְּמֵעֶיהָ וּמוֹצִיאִין אוֹתוֹ אֵבָּרִים אֵבָרִים, מִפְּנֵי שֶׁחַיֶּיהָ קוֹדְמִין לְחַיָּיו. יָצָא רֻבּוֹ, אֵין נוֹגְעִין בּוֹ, שֶׁאֵין דּוֹחִין נֶפֶשׁ מִפְּנֵי נָפֶשׁ:
    In other words
    When the fetus is still inside and the mothers life is threatened you can kill the fetus
    Once the fetus is mostly out aka partial birth abortion and certainly post birth abortion, you must let the mother die for we don’t push aside one life for another.

    So not sure how this is germane. Any honest poster here knows we are discussing abortions of convinience .
    It’s telling that you have to resort to underhanded sleigh of word to back your position here. You usually are much more honest in your postings

    #1833688
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “If you want to eat chazer”

    I don’t

    but
    a. If there was talk of legislating a ban on chazir I would oppose it too.
    b. The comparison is childish . chazir is something that you eat on a whim. abortion is not.
    A better comparison would be heart surgery. does the Torah oppose Heart surgery? most people would say “of course not” that doesnt mean it is mutar to show up and say I’d like surgery today. It is muttar in specific situations, that goes without saying. Of course abortion has far more restrictions, but a woman does not generally wake up and say instead of bacon for breakfast I think I’ll have an abortion . That is generally not the case, and certainly never the case with frum women .

    #1833730
    Resident Mortal
    Participant

    Your deceiving yourself, woman get abortions all the time as a means of birth control. Maybe 20 years ago it was rare but now with the glorification of abortion it will only keep increasing especially when states ( NY to name one) put into law that you are allowed to get a late term abortion for any reason whatsoever, which is insane. But all that doesn’t matter if its rare or not. Murder is murder and killing a 2 year old baby because the baby is too much of a burden is just as wrong as killing a 3 6 or 9 month fetes.

    #1833731
    5ish
    Participant

    If you vote Republican you are voting for a party that worships Avoda Zara. Mamesh like a Hellenist.

    #1833732
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “When the fetus is still inside and the mothers life is threatened you can kill the fetus”

    Yep
    Thus in repsonse to the question
    ““Reb Eliezer, I’m really shocked that you support abortion being legal.”

    I replied ” Your’e shocked that a yid takes the Torah’s view ?”

    The Torah allows abortion. period. full stop. (As explained this is not akin to the Torah allows chazir (if life is in danger)” it is more akin to “The Torah allows amputations*” This does NOT mean the torah allows abortion in all cases rch”l, much like the Torah doesn’t allow amputations in all cases
    As to the specific instances where the Torah allows it, of course need to be decided by a qualified posek, not by the Supreme court nor by congress

    (* I used heart surgeries earlier, I think amputation is a better anaalogy. Plus it fits with the Gemaras’ expression “uber yerech imo” )

    #1833745
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY I have another post pending (I hope) in reply

    but another probably more common case is fetal reduction.
    Again, not al poskim allow it but Nishmas Avraham brings from R’ Shlomo Zalman Aurbach that it is allowed . I don’t know what is done in practice, the cases I’m familiar with are related to a criises pregnancy center

    #1833790
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Wow ubiq hope you didn’t hurt yourself stretching there.
    The Torah allows coffee too.
    Only thing is that’s not the conversation we are having here.
    The conversation is not if abortion is EVER OK. It’s about if abortion is ALWAYS OK.
    So far you keep talking about some random times that it’s allowed.
    No the Torah does not allow abortions
    It allows saving a life.
    It allows eating pork to save a life
    It allows certain abortions to save a life
    It allows fire on shabbos to save a life
    So what.
    The opposition to the democrat party in this thread is due to the blanket allowance of abortion without cause.
    Please respond to that

    #1833789
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ubiq,

    I don’t think it’s מותר for the doctor, it’s only for the mother

    We apply the concept סומק טפי (sorry if I misspelled something)

    #1833791
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Dy
    Trump is very far from a bastion of morality. And to answer Joseph before he starts making lomdishe chillukim, Trump proudly admitted to arayos which are included in the sheva mitzvos b’nei Noach.
    Really? Which did he admit to?
    Touching by a goy ,is not arayos.

    #1833811
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq are you ‘collecting exceptions ”again?
    THE QUESTION HERE IS ABOUT ABORTION ON DEMAND. not fetal reduction
    Not danger to mothers life.
    We’re talking
    ”abortion because being pregnant will not allow me to fit into my prom dress ”
    Abortion because I want to go to Cancun in a month and don’t want to deal with morning sickness
    Abortion because I don’t like my boyfriend anymore so I don’t want his baby
    Abortion because I’m not in the mood of being tied down to a baby and changing diapers.
    Does rsza allow these???
    ציץ אליעזר? נשמת אברהם? Other פוסקים ?
    Yes? Name them
    No?
    Guess what
    The democrat party feels these are a woman’s right. And to stop her is anti woman.
    And that’s what we are against here.
    I don’t know how many more times I need to write this.
    Stop coming back with
    Fetal reduction
    Mothers life at risk
    Unviable fetus
    Severely deformed fetus
    We know there are those who allow them. Wonderful. You can do all sorts of otherwise איסורים,
    במצב של שעת הדחק
    THAT’S NOT THE QUESTION HERE!!!!!!

    #1833815
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Point of information ‘partial birth abortion’ medically known as intact dilation and extraction of a fetus with a heartbeat was outlawed in 2003.

    #1834012
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Wow ubiq hope you didn’t hurt yourself stretching there.
    The Torah allows coffee too.“

    ברוך השם!!!

    I can’t imagine what life would be like without it 🙃

    #1834001
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “It’s about if abortion is ALWAYS OK.”
    Then you are having a different conversation.
    Note you joned the conversation after me, so if you switched the conversation adn didnt tell me, thats on you.

    You said “It allows saving a life.”
    Several of the sources are not about what we would call “saving a life”
    not The tzitz eliezer nor the Yaavetz. Nor fetal reduction (which is not “Exceptional at al)

    “THE QUESTION HERE IS ABOUT ABORTION ON DEMAND. not fetal reduction”
    what question?

    “Does rsza allow these???”
    Nope
    ציץ אליעזר? נשמת אברהם? Other פוסקים ?
    Nope

    No?
    correct.

    “The democrat party feels these are a woman’s right. And to stop her is anti woman.”
    Ok so?

    “I don’t know how many more times I need to write this.”
    None, I got it and that was never in dispute.

    Stop coming back with
    Fetal reduction
    Mothers life at risk
    Unviable fetus
    Severely deformed fetus”

    I won’t unless its warranted. So If you say abortion is murder Iwill say it sint if you say abortion is not allowed I will say it is in certain cases. I’m not sure what your issue is .
    And why wouldnt I ocme back with those. Those probably account for 00 of cases where Frum women seek abortions. I’m not sure how 100% of cases can be deemed irrelevant

    CY
    “I don’t think it’s מותר for the doctor, it’s only for the mother”
    depends on the situation.

    “We apply the concept סומק טפי (sorry if I misspelled something)”
    To what case ?

    #1834022
    klugeryid
    Participant

    The democrat party feels these are a woman’s right. And to stop her is anti woman.”
    Ok so?

    So, so the democrat party is a party that supports and glorifies murder. That’s all. Not a big deal. Not sure why I can’t kill the guy who smashed an old yid with a huge brick, in crown heights, a few months back. I mean it’s just an abortion.
    Oh maybe because the same party that supports a woman’s right to not deal with the fallout of her promiscuity,by killing her innocent unborn baby, also supports the rights of all criminals to end the life of all innocents.
    Keep voting for these guys. Cause they give food stamps Reb Eliezer. Real Tzadiks.

    #1834021
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    You seem a bit confused here so let me give you the relevant posts in chronological order as listed here. (you can always go back and check to make sure I’m not leaving out anything important or misrepresenting.

    Op.

    You are voting for a party that is actively advocating for abortion and tuvya marriages. There is no sugar coating the fact that you are the Hellenist b’zman ha’zeh…

    (note, no mention of abortion in extenuating circumstances. Not opening a discussion on the possibility of abortion in Jewish law. Rather a condemnation on voting democrat, specifically due to two of the parties platforms. One of which is abortion rights)

    I am the twelfth commenter on this thread. You are the twenty first. I’m not sure which number system has twenty one before twelve, but I never learned that one, so I would consider that you came into this conversation after me.

    Then came this
    As a response to a comment from r Eliezer
    50,000,000 slaughtered babies is far less moral
    The stupid policies of CLinton caused the mortgage crisis 10 years ago.
    The Republicans prefer school choice.

    To which r Eliezer responded

    February 19, 2020 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm#1833327REPLY
    Reb EliezerParticipant
    You are fooling yourself when it comes to abortion. No one does abortion for the sake of it. The rich will travel wherever it is allowed and the poor will endanger themselves.

    To which Josef responded

    Reb Eliezer, I’m really shocked that you support abortion being legal.

    Which engendered your comment that r Eliezers they is in line with the Torah, whereupon I asked where exactly do you have a basis for such an outlandish claim.

    Follow it through

    Op says democrats are awful because they glorify the right for abortions (which is clearly referring to all abortions not just fetal reduction ET Al)
    R E says republicans are worse because they don’t care about anybody

    To which mdg says 50,000 abortions (that’s fetal reductions?? 50,000?)are worse than whatever r e is claiming about
    republicans

    Upon which Josef expressed surprise that r e would support legalizing abortions (clearly, follow along now, the abortions we’ve been discussing, meaning ALL abortions including the majority of them which are just convenience)

    To which you said it’s the Torah view
    And that’s where I challenged you to provide a source.

    The abortion part of this thread clearly was discussing immoral abortion on demand, when you came barreling in claiming that’s the Torah position.
    If anyone changed the conversation it was you.

    #1834039
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    You seem a bit confused here so let me give you the relevant posts in chronological order as listed here.

    (you can always go back and check to make sure I’m not leaving out anything important or misrepresenting.”
    I did and you are misunderstanding I dont think misrepresenting

    “Op.
    You are voting for a party that is actively advocating for abortion and tuvya marriages. There is no sugar coating the fact that you are the Hellenist b’zman ha’zeh…
    “(note, no mention of abortion in extenuating circumstances. Not opening a discussion on the possibility of abortion in Jewish law. Rather a condemnation on voting democrat, specifically due to two of the parties platforms. One of which is abortion rights)”

    yep in the OP no mention, thats why I didnt comment . The mention comes later
    ….
    ” so I would consider that you came into this conversation after me.”

    Nope. I was replying to Joseph’s question not yours

    “To which r Eliezer responded

    February 19, 2020 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm#1833327REPLY
    Reb EliezerParticipant
    You are fooling yourself when it comes to abortion. No one does abortion for the sake of it. The rich will travel wherever it is allowed and the poor will endanger themselves.”

    Yes nailed it! Reb elizer said “No one does abortion for the sake of it”
    Again “No one does abortion for the sake of it”

    and again becasue you somehow missed this in your thorough analysis,:

    “No one does abortion for the sake of it”
    With me , so we are NOT talking about abortion of convinance rather of neccesity.
    Stay with me this is crucial.
    Becasue THIS is what the conversatin was about when I joined. (note at this point your sole comment was about weighing Trump’s benefits vs chisronos NOt about the topic I comented on)

    “To which Josef responded
    Reb Eliezer, I’m really shocked that you support abortion being legal.”

    Which engendered your comment that r Eliezers they is in line with the Torah,”

    Yes! absolutely becasue The Torah allows abortion out of necessity. now of course Our definition of “necessity” will differ from someone elese’s In a perfect world The law willl be Every abortion needs rabbinic approval. Obviously there is no way to legislate that. So the next best thingis to ahve the government step out. Frum people will (and do) discuss i with a Rabbi. Not frum people are not my primary concern

    “whereupon I asked where exactly do you have a basis for such an outlandish claim.”
    Yep this is where you joined, welcome to the conversation! glad to have you we are talking about abortions of necessity NOT “abortions for the sake of it”

    Follow it through
    I did

    “Op says democrats are awful because they glorify the right for abortions (which is clearly referring to all abortions not just fetal reduction ET Al)
    R E says republicans are worse because they don’t care about anybody”
    A great point, not one that I commented on though.

    “Upon which Josef expressed surprise that r e would support legalizing abortions (clearly, follow along now, the abortions we’ve been discussing, meaning ALL abortions including the majority of them which are just convenience)”
    Nope this part is not quite right

    “To which you said it’s the Torah view”
    Because it (allowing abortions based on necessity ) is

    “And that’s where I challenged you to provide a source.”
    And I provided more than one

    #1834035
    jackk
    Participant

    Monsey Yid,
    I know that midrash and it is shrecklech scary.
    But, there were other reasons for the mabul that are not treated with the same mindset.
    For example – Gezel. Even a פחות משוה פרוטה . Is a “white collar criminal” allowed to be elected ?
    And זרע לבטלה . And ע״ז.
    The US is full with these other aveiros also. We are living in galus. May Moshiach come speedily.

    PS. לכאורה the pshat in the medrash is that not only was the toevah not prohibited but they went so fat as to also codify into law to allow marriage.
    To just disallow the marriage part , but to never even try to disallow the actual toevah, is not enough. Maybe Jews should only live in countries with Sharia law.

    #1834038
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “So, so the democrat party is a party that supports and glorifies murder”

    Again, not murder.

    “Not sure why I can’t kill the guy … it’s just an abortion.”
    Its not. (and you say I’m confused? why can’t you defend your position without saying things that arent true? )

    “Oh maybe because the same party that supports a woman’s right to not deal with the fallout of her promiscuity”
    I thought this wasnt an anti-women thing? why “her promiscuity” wasnt he just as promiscuous?

    “,by killing her innocent unborn baby, also supports the rights of all criminals to end the life of all innocents.”

    I’m stretching my mind trying to make this connection, youve lost me you are going t have to walk me through this leap slowly. When the Gemara says we execute a pregnant woman who is chayiv misah. Does that mean we also kill her children if she is chayiv misah?

    “Keep voting for these guys. Cause they give food stamps Reb Eliezer. Real Tzadiks.”
    Yep the Democrats are in fact th pro-life party

    #1834067
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Wow.
    Tons to plod through
    Basically you are willfully Mischaracterizing the conversation.
    It’s about (based on the op) the evils of the democrat party line.
    Their position is all abortion is a woman’s right.
    Not halaachicly sanctioned abortion
    When r Eliezer expresses support for their position, that’s what he is supporting.
    Abortion for the sake of abortion means I want to have an abortion so I can say I had an abortion. Sort of like crossing it off a bucket list. That’s what r Eliezer said nobody does. (Thoth in not sure how he knows that, and that is legal and protected too, so it’s really part of the conversation anyway)
    Abortion for necessity in the context of this thread means that there is a rational for it
    Even as I mentioned that I should fit into my prom dress
    Remember this thread is not about halachik abortion it’s about democrats position on abortion rights.
    (according to you, r Eliezer dropped in an oblique reference to halachik abortion in middle of a conversation about the democrats position on abortion and he did it in code so only you would understand the reference)

    #1834069
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Nope. I was replying to Joseph’s question not yours

    Right, Josefs question to a participant of a conversation of which I was part of.
    True I had not responded to that interjection. But that’s not the start of a new conversation. Nor was it meant to change the conversation topic. Which is usually based on the op which you just agreed is more in line with what I’m claiming not your rendition.
    So yes I was part of this conversation before you.

    #1834070
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Not sure why I can’t kill the guy … it’s just an abortion.”
    Its not. (and you say I’m confused? why can’t you defend your position without saying things that arent true? )

    So explain the difference between killing
    A fully healthy fetus a week before its due date
    A newborn
    A fifty year old person

    Maybe then I’ll be able to understand some of your posts.

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