February 21, 2017 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #619298LightbriteParticipant
Would it be a dishonor to answer any questions about anything he did or said?
Or say anything that may have been unaddressed by Trump?
Last week in real life we learned about kibud av v’em in parsha class.
The rabbi IRL said that we cannot even intervene if we think our parent is wrong in an argument against someone.
Likewise, we cannot say that the parent is right either.
Both are rude and dishonorable (as if our parents need our agreement?).
So really it is not our place to say anything.
Yet what happens when a parent says something that may hurt you or those around you? And it’s not Torahdik, such as calling women names like “pig” and worse.
Or omit saying something, such as the antisemitism Turx question evasion.
Do you have to ask a shaila to your LOR in these cases?
Or does it not matter because the parent wouldn’t take it as tochacha and instead see it as disrespect and it is not our place?
Thank youFebruary 22, 2017 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1218581
Are you talking about saying something publicly or saying something to the person himself?
If you meant publicly, you certainly are not allowed to say anything negative about him. For that matter, no one else is either.
If it’s privately, there are ways that one is halachically allowed to give tochacha to a parent.
I saw an interview/s with Ivanka in which she seemed to handle this issue very well. The interviewer was asking her very difficult and inappropriate (imho) questions about her father’s behavior. She refused to say anything negative about her father (in one interview, she kept saying firmly but politely, “you will have to ask him”), but she did mention that in private she is very open about stating her opinions to her father.February 22, 2017 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1218582
“Do you have to ask a shaila to your LOR in these cases?”
Definitely!February 22, 2017 2:46 am at 2:46 am #1218583LightbriteParticipant
What do you mean negative about him?
Are we allowed to criticize his actions publicly?
How come we should judge the actions of others and yet cannot say anything against him?
What is the difference between saying what he said is bullying vs saying something negative? Are they the same thing?February 22, 2017 6:34 am at 6:34 am #1218584Avi KParticipant
One has to tell him privately in an honorable and non-confromtational fashion (e.g. “Dad. The Torah says
“).February 22, 2017 9:26 am at 9:26 am #1218585
Lightbrite – I meant if he were Jewish, you wouldn’t be allowed to speak against him.
It is better not to speak negatively against goyim either, but it is not assur. And there are situations in which it is necessary. But even when it’s necessary, I think it’s always better to speak about the actions without being judgmental of the person per se’.
For example, in the Turx example, I think it’s important to stick up for Turx since he is Jewish. But at the same time, one can be “dan l’kaf zchus” Trump for the reasons (on an emotional level) that he acted the way he did even while saying that he acted incorrectly. In an article on YWN, it said something about how he has been on the defensive and t/f is understandably quick to read criticism into innocent comments.
So it was being understanding of Trump and not condemning him even while saying that Turx was right and he was wrong.
I’m not saying that you’re never allowed to condemn goyim when they act inappropriately, but I think it’s a maaleh to be “dan l’kaf zchus” and understand why they act as they do.February 22, 2017 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1218586Geordie613Participant
Amazing. I’m just listening to a shiur by Rabbi Frand. I will summarise here, even though it is a lot more complicated than this.
He said that the Torah tells us Terach died before Avrohom Ovinu left Charan, even though in reality he died only after. This is because we shouldn’t get the impression that Avram (as he was then) abandoned his elderly father. He really had an obligation to respect him, but was released from his obligation because of his commandment to go to Eretz Cenaan.
Anyway, what I understood from this regarding the OP, that one has an obligation to respect one’s father even if he is NOT Jewish.February 22, 2017 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1218587
Avi, I think the halacha may be that you are supposed to phrase it as a question, “Totty, isn’t the halacha x,y,z?”
Although if Totty/Dad/Abba is unlearned, I’m not sure how it would be possible to phrase it that way, if Son knows perfectly well that Dad doesn’t know the halacha and never learned it.February 22, 2017 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1218588
Geordie – I don’t know if you can necessarily draw that conclusion. First of all, maybe Avraham Avinu was being extra machmir. After all, the Avos were not obligated in any halachos besides 7 Mitzos b’nei Noach, and kibud av v’aim is not one of those.So I would imagine that in his case, it was not an obligation. Second of all, there was no concept of Jews or non-Jews yet.
What we can learn from this is that it is definitely recommended, but I’m not sure that it’s commanded. Unless there is a source that specifically says that we learn from here that it’s a halacha. Is that what Rav Frand said?
Whether or not we learn it from here, it could very well be that there is a concept of kibud av v’eim even when the parents are not Jewish. In the case of a ger, the parents aren’t really his parents halachically, but since (I think) one of the reasons for kibud av v’eim is “hakaras hatov” for giving you life, it might apply to not-Jewish parents as well. It certainly is good middos even if it’s not mamash halacha.
When I distinguished between Jews and non-Jews, I was thinking of the Loshon Hara issue and not about kibbud av v’eim.
You have a very good point, Geordie, that kibud av v’eim should apply either way (whether it’s halacha or good middos).February 24, 2017 2:33 am at 2:33 am #1218589FuturePOTUSParticipant
Yaakov bowed to Yosef in Egypt, and Yosef walked ahead of the procession to meet him when Yaakov came down there in the first place.February 24, 2017 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1218590
Futurepotus, I’m not sure what your point is. Can you clarify? Thanks!
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