I’m still waiting….
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- This topic has 46 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 7 months ago by Always_Ask_Questions.
October 20, 2021 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #2019081
…for someone to tell me what Siman in S”A is being violated with WoW. Specifically if a man is reading Torah for them….October 20, 2021 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #2019112GoldilocksParticipant
Can you be more specific?October 20, 2021 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #2019114LostsparkParticipant
Wow is so 2009, come at us with a real safek.October 20, 2021 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #2019117
The problem with today’s generation is “where does it say”. Where does it say you can’t wear a wig so long that it reaches the floor? Where does it say that we can’t wear nose rings ( this question pertains to men as well)? Where does it say that women can’t read the Torah bechlal, I don’t think there’s a source for that bechlal…
The sources are Rabbonim from our times!!! The Ramban was a poisek in his dor, the Ramchal in his dor, etc, etc. And today’s Rabbonim are against wow, obviously.
Before the WoW are busy with minyanim and the like, they should eat kosher, cover their hair and not be mechalelei Shabbos nor engange in abominable acts. The point of their shenanigans is not to serve Hashem, they simply want to spread their liberal agenda of women being the same as men. And look where these liberal ideologies got them, today men can be considered women as well in their sick minds.October 20, 2021 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2019125
Still waiting….October 20, 2021 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #2019136kollelmanParticipant
Shulchan Aruch 282:3
הכל עולים למנין ז’ אפי’ אשה וקטן שיודע למי מברכין אבל אמרו חכמים אשה לא תקרא בציבור מפני כבוד הציבור: הגה ואלו דוקא מצטרפים למנין הקרואים אבל לא שיהיו כולם נשים או קטנים (ר”ן וריב”ש) ודין עבד כנעני כדין אשה אבל אם אמו מישראל מותר לעלות (הגהות מיי’ פי”ב מהל’ תפלה) ואסור לקרות בראש מגולה ואין איסור לקרות ע”ה נכבד ועשיר וגדול הדור לפני ת”ח כי אין זה בזיון לת”ח רק כבוד לתורה שמתכבדת באנשים גדולים (א”ז) וממזר מותר לעלות לס”ת (מהר”א מפרא”ג) וע”ל סי’ קל”ו מסדר הקרואים:
https://www.sefaria. org/Shulchan_Arukh,_Orach_Chayim.282.3October 20, 2021 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #2019144
YO, are you also a supporter of the toeiva people and believe that the death penalty is an unfair punishment for that sin?October 20, 2021 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #2019137shebbesonianParticipant
@philosopher. Neither Ramban nor Ramchal were poskim, Ramchal even less so.October 20, 2021 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #2019138lowerourtuition11210Participant
who says a man is reading thectorah for them? are you saying that he is reading the torah without a minyan present?October 20, 2021 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #2019162NoveltyParticipant
Philosopher, I just want to point out that wearing a long wig and wearing a nose ring are two very different things.
A nose ring was a normal, Jewish part of life. Rivka Imenu had a nose ring!
A long wig was never considered an acceptable practice of the Jews. Only in recent years when people are pushing the boundaries can anyone even think that such a practice is in any way Jewish.October 20, 2021 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #2019160
Sheb – the ramban was most definitely a posek, and one of the gedolei rishonim on shas… he’s literally what we mean when we say “shas and poskim”, just like the ran, rashba, ritva, etc…..there were many communities that exclusively followed shitas horamban in halacha; i saw this mentioned in either shem hagedolim or knesses hagedolah; I forget which.
The ramchal didn’t write much on halacha, but he most definitely was a posek, as was any gadol beyisroel in those times….poskim take a lot of things into account when deciding halacha; the holy writings of the achronim who focused on machshava included.
The sefer ohel yaakov (rav yaakov sasportes) writes that shabsai tzvi introduced some positive things, such as saying birkas kohanim everyday in chutz laaretz. He writes that we specifically should avoid doing them, not to give credence to his heretical movement. If this was said about someone who believed in the torah, yet corrupted it and abused kabalah indefensibly, then kal vechomer to a group that rejects Torah and mocks rabbinic mesorah as being misogynistic.October 20, 2021 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #2019161
Also, when did philosopher quote either a ramban or a ramchal?October 21, 2021 12:21 am at 12:21 am #2019173
All need to keep in mind YO’s support of the Reform WoW movement whenever he comments on any other topic here.October 21, 2021 12:28 am at 12:28 am #2019175🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Where do you see his support of reform? He seems to do this (often) either to be antagonistic toward the posters, or just as an outlet for his anger, which is problematic enough without putting words in his mouth.October 21, 2021 3:55 am at 3:55 am #2019181
WoW is Reform. He’s defending WoW.October 21, 2021 3:55 am at 3:55 am #2019182
Novelty, a nose ring for a man or a woman in our society is a statement of complete hefkerus; it’s not a tznius issue…as you mentioned, it used to be the norm and was no different than earrings or necklaces. Long wigs are a tznius issue. It’s mixing two different ideasOctober 21, 2021 8:56 am at 8:56 am #2019230GoldilocksParticipant
Ujm, is WoW reform? If you say it is, I believe you; however, many people are unaware of this.October 21, 2021 9:01 am at 9:01 am #2019239
Kollelman, What about a man taking out a Torah and reading Zachor for women (without bracha) ?
I don’t support WoW at all. But I do support taking things into perspective. So yes, what WoW does is quite unsavory, but let’s see if there’s actually an issur.October 21, 2021 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #2019287shebbesonianParticipant
@avira- I’ll give you the Ramban, although he wasn’t a posek in the way the word is used today. He wrote much fewer teshuvos than his peers, and I think of him more as a mefaresh- and one of the gedolei hamefarshim at that.
How do you know Ramchal was a poseik? Who did he pasken for?
I was responding to philosophers statement that “ The Ramban was a poisek in his dor, the Ramchal in his dor, etc, etc“October 21, 2021 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #2019312kollelmanParticipant
@Yabia Omer – Nowhere do we see it being ok for women to take out a Sefer Torah and read it for themselves. They are breaching protocol and “poretz geder” and that’s what makes them dangerous. The Ashkenazic community in particular is extremely wary of these movements and breaches, as they have seen first-hand the havoc they have wreaked on Jews worldwide.October 21, 2021 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #2019320Avram in MDParticipant
Can you tell us what siman in the S”A is specifically violated by not having a mechitza in shul? I think the opposition to WoW is indeed coming from taking things into perspective.October 21, 2021 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #2019366🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“He’s defending WoW.”
“I don’t support WoW at all. ”
Yup. Putting words in his mouth. You could apologize but I’m sure you’ll just defend it.October 21, 2021 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #2019373
YO – Parshas zachor is a chiyuv for women. Krias hatorah is most certainly not.October 21, 2021 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #2019407
YO is 100% defending WoW by asking for a source that prohibts their depraved behavior with the intended goal which is to destroy
the Yiddishkeit which they have successfully done to millions of Jews over 3 centuries, all over Europe, the Americas and they are currently making inroads in Israel, H”y.October 21, 2021 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #2019418
shebbosian, a poisek is someone who gives teshuvas and writes sefurim on halacha. No, we didn’t call the Sanhedrin poiskim, but that’s what they were, the poskim of their dor. And throughout all the doiros, whatever you want to call them, Rishoinim, Achroinim, etc, they were the poskim of their dor and we have the poskim of today. Perhaps you want to call these poskim “Rabbis” but then there Conservadox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, and all branches of non-Judaism have “Rabbis” as well. But these “Rabbis” cannot be called poskim. So my point is not only those whom today we davka poisek hador is a poisek. Authentic Rabbis who pasken halacha are all poiskim.October 21, 2021 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #2019430GadolhadorahParticipant
I don’t think most of the otherwise “liberal” posters “support” WOW in terms of endorsing their actions. My own views have always been that the sometimes violent and illegal efforts to disrupt their monthly activities at the plaza near the kotel creates a circus atmosphere that gives them more publicity than they otherwise warrant.October 21, 2021 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #2019433DBSParticipant
There I was thinking that in Judaism we celebrated asking questions so long as we accepted the answers and followed the rabbanim. My mistake, sorry.October 21, 2021 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #2019552
DBS, if someone was drilling a hole on a boat you are on and people protested this dangerous action would you say “quote me a law which prohibits drilling a hole on a boat?!” There’s actually no such law that I’m aware of that prevents people from drilling holes, per se. But if someone would do that they would be liable for the repercussions.
There is no question that the repercussions, if wow women would get their way without resistance, there would be the sinking boats of thousands of Jews who would become confused, many Israelis are already confused, of what authentic Judaism is all about. And we know what happens when that happens. These reshuim were historically “successful” since the Reform inception and have led millions of Jews astray because so many asked “what’s wrong if they do this which is “only” against daas Yeshudis or minhugim, where’s the “real source” that prohibts such behavior?” This has led millions of Jews towards the slippery slope of full halachic violations to the point of assimilation. Whether there’s an outright source prohibiting wow in the particular case of forming their own minyanim with a man leining I’m not sure, but the guaranteed repercussions are too great to ignore. And why wouldn’t they have a woman leining? They have no problem with that…but regardless, anyone who is saddened by the churbonos the Reform had made and are making would never ask for a source where their actions are prohibited.October 22, 2021 9:43 am at 9:43 am #2019656DBSParticipant
Once again, YO specifically said that he doesn’t support WOW; he was simply asking the source for its issurOctober 22, 2021 10:13 am at 10:13 am #2019684
DBS, I have not said that YO supported the women of the wall. I said that if one is saddened by the destruction that these Reformers have unleashed upon klal Yisroel and over what their continued goals are with their provocative actions, they would not ask this question.
If the question would be “is wow violating a specific siman with their actions at the Wall?” that would be a neutral question. The way I read the op’s question was more like a challenge that they are not violating halacha.October 22, 2021 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #2019729
Thank you DBS !
Let me quote myself: I’m still waiting for someone to tell me what Siman in S”A is being violated with WoW. Specifically if a man is reading Torah for them”. As neutral as it gets.
Perhaps we should emulate the Sephardim, who did not have the issue of Reform? What did they do right?October 22, 2021 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #2019801
YO, it is making inroads in Israel H”y and will likely effect Sefardim, especially non-frum Sefardim now that there’s a Reform MK ( I forgot his name) that doing away with halachik kashrus standards and messing with the geirus process.
The Sefardim weren’t effected till now because the Reform movement originated in Europe. Then moved to the US Only recently have they infiltrated Israel where Sefardim live.October 22, 2021 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #2019824NoveltyParticipant
I would posit that the main problem with the WOW movement is that it is being done for two reasons:
1. To establish that women are as capable of men.
The entire basis of this argument is flawed. They are bringing feminist agenda into a place of non-issue. Judaism doesn’t say that women are less worthy — if anything, women are held up as the highest standard of spirituality. Women are innately spiritual, therefore, they don’t need the time-bound mitzvos as much as men to keep them focused on Hashem.
The problem is they are making an issue where there is none. They are bringing in non-Jewish ideas and applying them to Judaism. They are fighting against Hashem, with them making the war — not Him.
2. They are going contrary to tznuis, drawing tremendous attention to themselves.
Whether or not they are breaking any specific halachos, they are going against the very essence of Judaism. And all because they’ve absorbed the goyishe concepts that posit that women are less-than men.October 22, 2021 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #2019823
Yes but WHY did it originate in Europe?October 22, 2021 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #2019812Yserbius123Participant
Pretty sure that WoW’s whole thing is that they do everything just within bounds of Shulchan Aruch, and pushing the envelope on that. It’s not their actions so much as their intent. They don’t just “want to be part of a minyan”. They think that normative frum Yiddishkeit is problematic and seek to change it.October 22, 2021 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #2019827
YO – the sefardim didn’t so anything more “right” than their ashkenazi counterparts…the European enlightenment simply was that, European! It didn’t reach most of the sefardi lands.
Sefardim fell prey to haskalah-esque nisyonos in Italy during the Renaissance, and in Spain pre-inquisition; in those days, it was the Ashkenazim who were the “frummee”.
People have a yatzer hora; if anything, sefardi heritage suffered more than ashkenazim when both moved to eretz yisroel. The frummer sefardim were more easily ensnared by the zionists than the entrenched yerushalmis. The chazon ish famously said that if we don’t change to speak ivrit, we will lose acheinu bnei hasfardim.October 22, 2021 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #2019842
YO, it originated in Europe because of the European enlightenment. There was never an Ottoman empire enlightenment.October 23, 2021 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #2019894
I think there was a deeper reason why it didn’t affect the Sephardim. I think that by them everyone was considered in the fold. They didn’t banish someone who didn’t keep Shabbos for example. They included everyone. Have you ever gone to a Sephardi shul? It’s like a mishmash of people. Your typical Ashkenaz minyan in Flatbush looks like a bunch of clones.October 23, 2021 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #2019929
YO, 50% of the Sephardim converted to Christianity in the 15th century. You don’t consider that to be worse?October 23, 2021 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #2019938
YO, you’re mixing up cause and effect. They never HAD to shun people because there was never a movement like reform from which they had to separate.October 23, 2021 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2019942
Ujm, it was not 50%…..besser nisht reddenOctober 23, 2021 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #2019955
They converted forcefully.October 23, 2021 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #2019957
I agree…ujm, it was misleading to quote the forcible conversions of gerush sefardOctober 24, 2021 12:03 am at 12:03 am #2019961
We are required to die rather than to convert.
Avira, you’re saying it was more than 50%?October 24, 2021 12:04 am at 12:04 am #2019963
As far as the comparison, 99% of today’s non-frum Jews were born as non-frum. If it is unfair to blame the Spanish and Portuguese conversions, in which case they effectively chose to convert rather than to flee the country (an option they were given in Spain) or to even die (as they were required to accept rather than shmad), then today’s Reform and Conservative Jews are less to blame than the 15th century converts.October 24, 2021 2:06 am at 2:06 am #2019999
Ujm – “ones mamon” is considered an ones for certain things; avodah zara not being one of them. What they did was assur, but jt was also forcible, because the alternative was to leave behind their entire lives – some did, and they were mekadesh shem zhomayim…their schar is immeasurable. It was not by any means an easy nisayon, and we have no idea what we would do if faced with it.
And yes, I have read reports that it was more…but i shudder to think about it and hope that the historian was mistaken.October 24, 2021 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #2020186Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Not sure whether Spanish inquisition innoculated Sephardim against enlightenment, or it was just luck of geography. but note that expulsion in those times was not just mamon, but a huge risk to life also. I think also we can stop fighting enlightenment by now, it is not the same yetzer as 200 years ago. For example, Sephardim in USA don’t seem to flock to reform temples. Ignorance and Facebook seen to be more dangerous.
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