December 26, 2011 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #839757a maminParticipant
I think that is the most realistic answer in this forum!December 26, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #839758
Menachem Melamid – Still waiting to see the name of gedolim and poskim who say that knees and elbows do not need to be covered.
Statements based on wishful thinking with nothing whatsoever to back them up only serve to cloud the issue when it is indeed clear cut.December 26, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #839759
zahavasdad: Unsettling but how true!
“I think Its easiest to sum up some peoples views. Every Yiddishe Neshama is sacred and holy , unless they want to go to MY schools, be friends with MY kids, Daven at MY Shul or live in MY neighborhood.”December 26, 2011 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #839760HaQerMember
“One thing you can not fault Judaism for, is that we always spell out precisely what is d’oraisah, d’rabbanan, and chumrah. These halachos are spelled out precisely in the poskim.”
Poskim? Who actually asks pokim? Who actually reads halacha? Most people here get there psakim from the CR! And if the CR says it is assur diyoraisa to have elbows uncovered then it is! (Thank you Sam2 for refuting this)December 26, 2011 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #839761TheGoqParticipant
Scissors it was very brave of you to share that post with us thank you. The reasons are endless but i assure you there are reasons i dont think they go otd just for the fun of it.December 26, 2011 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #839762stamamenMember
Like NP asked, lets hear the name of even one posek or godol who allows knees or elbows to be uncovered in public. Just one, please.December 26, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #839763
the conclusion i reached is that there is no reason you can pin OTD on…all the reasons today are nothing new, going off the derech has been in vogue since the times of the beis hamikdash. what you CAN do is deal with these kids once it happens…December 26, 2011 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #839764ImaofthreeParticipant
Always runs with scissors fast, I think what you are writing about is a very normal feeling for a baalas teshuva. Everyone goes up and down in their frumkiet, thinking how we could do better. Focus on the things that you do, don’t let the yatzer horah get you down and depressed. Thank you for sharing with us here in the coffee room and I wish you hatzlocha.December 26, 2011 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #839765
Now Sam2 tells us that there exist poskim that allow knees and elbows to be uncovered. We are even treated to a remarkable bit of lumdus regarding tephach b’isha erva. (no doubt a self made biyan av / ma-metzinu from R’ Moshes teshuva about married womens hair. This is truely an impressive exercise in self delusion. We are STILL waiting with baited breath from a real source that allows women to do out in public with their knees and elbows uncovered.December 26, 2011 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #839766Menachem MelamedParticipant
To Non Political and Stamamen – I have not responded to your requests for names of accepted poskim intentionally. One of the great problems of our generation is that people have not followed the advice of the Mishna in Pirkei Avos – “asei l’cha rav”. The purpose of my post was to advise people to go to their own Rav for pisjei halocha – not anonymous Internet discussions. Anyone who uses the Coffee Room as his Rav is like a wanna-be surgeon operating with the guidance of a highschool biology book.December 26, 2011 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #839767YW Moderator-42Moderator
Can one recite krias shma if there is a woman in the room with less than a tefach of her elbow visible?December 26, 2011 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #839768
Scissors, ???? ?????. We FFBs have our share of ???????. At least you know there’s nowhere to run back to. Please realize that the negative you encounter has nothing to do with frumkeit and all to do with inner-city bigotry, narrow-mindedness, and conspicuous consumerism. I know many OOT (and OOUSA) FFBs who are even frummer than the ones you live amongst, and they’re open-minded, accepting, and well-mannered.
Sam, “Not everyone agrees that the elbows and knees must be covered…”
Of those that don’t, 50% of their kids text on Shabbos.December 26, 2011 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #839769
soliek, PEARLS OF WISDOM, I agree 100% (how about our forefathers?)! Thats the best attitide! Better to put effort into helping than criticizing, esp when the criticizing isnt l’toeles!
“the conclusion i reached is that there is no reason you can pin OTD on…all the reasons today are nothing new, going off the derech has been in vogue since the times of the beis hamikdash. what you CAN do is deal with these kids once it happens…”December 26, 2011 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #839770chavalmanMember
Menachem: No such posek or godol exists that allows public display of knees and elbows. They are all assur. It is black and white in this case. You wont find a single one. At most there is a discussion of where the knee and elbow begins. Hence the inability to name one, cloaked in a claim of not wishing to name even a single one.December 26, 2011 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #839771YW Moderator-42Moderator
Sam, “Not everyone agrees that the elbows and knees must be covered…”
Of those that don’t, 50% of their kids text on Shabbos.
If we weren’t so judgmental about the parents then many of these kids would be in frum schools and would not be texting on Shabbos.December 26, 2011 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #839772
One more thing to add to my list – when people around them concentrate more or what they look like on the outside than what they feel like on the inside. It is more important to be a frum yid on the inside than make a fuss over the livush and appearance on the outside. You can change a person from the outside in but not from the inside out. That is a biggy. As one young woman told me “After my mother died when I was 11, they were pointing to my top button that was open, but my heart was but three inches away and it was shattered into a million pieces but they didn’t speak about that. Not one of them asked about my broken heart and how I was doing, they were only concerned about my open top button.”December 26, 2011 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #839773
Yeah, right.December 26, 2011 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #839774a maminParticipant
Always Runs: Please forgive me if you feel I am out of line. If you have an issue with the internet do you feel it is safe for you to
ccess all the time?December 26, 2011 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #839775
There are 2 issues here
1) Pushing people away. This is a very real issue and a difficult tightrope to toe. Consider that Timna was pushed away by our Avos Avracham an Yitchok. Obviously they had very good reasons for pushing her away – and yet from the gemmara (Senhedrin and Rashi there)it is clear that we are still suffering for this. Any decision that effects a yiddish neshamah has to be made with the requisite fear and awe – sadly this is not always the case.
2) The continued fable that people who choose an assimilationist life-style and publicly trample on clear-cut halacha somehow have rebbonim they rely on that sanction this. This creates much confusion for many people who naivly belive that this is just another machlokes between legitamite opinions.December 26, 2011 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #839776Queen BeeMember
I agree with aries. I also think another reason some girls go off is because they feel like second class citizens. Women are not seen that way in Judaism, but (especially with what’s been going on lately) there are many men who, through behavior and manner of speech, give the wrong message.December 27, 2011 12:17 am at 12:17 am #839777
Wow Aries, the last 3 posts you wrote above here are really significant thoughts on this topic, you know what you’re talking about. Thanks for that.
Goq- thank you for acknowledging me and my story I shared.
Dito thanks to mmseeker, it felt so good what you wrote, I was thiking of printing it and carrying it around with me in my pocket.
And don’t worry guys, I love Hashem and the Torah! I was just on my way home now tonight, and passing all the yiddisher steiblach in my chassidishe neighborhood and I got tears in my eyes seeing every lit menorah in the windows, with yidden sitting with a sefer in front of it, I realized “this is what the amalek and Nazi Monsters yemach shmo tried to destroy and B”H couldnt’.December 27, 2011 12:29 am at 12:29 am #839778
I did find, via google, one lenient source. Not normative halacha, though:
The best development I’ve seen on this is Rabbi Yehuda Herzl Henkin’s Contemporary Tseni’ut. It appeared in Tradition 37:3 (2003), as well as its own book. The Tradition article is available online, paid subscription required. Here’s his conclusion, as relates to your question:
A typology can be established, then, as follows:December 27, 2011 12:38 am at 12:38 am #839779
SAM2, you can find opinions that matir (or forbid) anything! We are to go with the accepted opinions!! Do you seriously think that those ladies were relying on this shita or that shita? They just did what they wanted regardless. Certain kulos that we do not pasken by should not even be mentioned so as not to give an excuse for those wishing to do whatever they feel like. You have to be careful!December 27, 2011 1:17 am at 1:17 am #839780MorahRachMember
Before i respond, to all those arguing about frumkeit and halacha and yelling at everything being said that you don’t agree with, YOU are on the internet right now conversing with men and women. Be a little less judgmental perhaps.
I agree with those saying the women of the 60s and so on were extremely frum! My grandmother wore a scarf/hat, didnt cover every lose hair, but i can safely say was as frum if not frummer than any woman i know now! Times do change yes and we roll with the changes, and i understand that. But lets not call some of these chumras Torah. Not having a design on your boot is NOT halacha Popa, neither is the kind of nylon tights a young girl is wearing. I had a friend in a BY type school, she was told that if any of her married sisters were seen on the street in makeup, that she would be kicked out of school. In what way does this make sense? Her parents want her to learn torah, she wants to, but her older married sisters who happen to live near hers actions can result in her termination at school? I just don’t know how society got this way.December 27, 2011 1:21 am at 1:21 am #839781popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Not having a design on your boot is NOT halacha Popa,
Talk about a straw man. I specifically referred to covering hair and arms and legs.December 27, 2011 1:27 am at 1:27 am #839782popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Ok, so this is a perfect example of ???? ????? ?? ????. The point of the thread was whether schools can in good faith exclude children of parents who do not conform to its standards of chumrah, but the first few poster took it too far, and applied it to halacha as well. So we spend 70 posts arguing what the halacha is. hee hee hee.
So, back to the substantive issue.
What do you all think about a school which excludes children of parents who either
A. Don’t keep the community’s level of chumrah (ex. maybe a mainstream Lakewood school refusing a child whose mother wears bright colors.)
B. Don’t keep some actual halacha. (ex. shabbos. Or doesn’t cover her hair).
Let’s assume the reason is, that they are afraid the kids will influence their kids negatively.
So, I assume it is possible that the kids will influence the kids. Then, the question is the balance of what the chances are of bad influence, versus the damage to the excluded kids.
I’m a little hesitant to say the school isn’t usually justified, since the only places this happens are in areas that have other schools which are more appropriate for the other kids anyway.December 27, 2011 1:54 am at 1:54 am #839783zahavasdadParticipant
<em > A. Don’t keep the community’s level of chumrah (ex. maybe a mainstream Lakewood school refusing a child whose mother wears bright colors.)
B. Don’t keep some actual halacha. (ex. shabbos. Or doesn’t cover her hair).
I can tell you of some more modern yeshivas who WILL take kids from homes who are NOT Shomer Shabbot and NOT even Kosher and even these kids will become religious.
It is just as likely that a kid from a non-religions home (especially younger ones) will be influenced by religious kids and rabbis than the other way around. I know PLENTY of people who fall into this categoryDecember 27, 2011 2:09 am at 2:09 am #839784just meParticipant
emuna, you must be young to say such things about 30 years ago. I am married 34 years and I can tell you that even though there weren’t so many brands of wigs, most women wore wigs. Also, I graduated Yeshiva of Brooklyn in 1969 and if you look at my graduation pictures, you would see that MOST of the hems only touched the top of the knee.
In my opinion, a big difference from those days to today is:
1) there were so few children that schools WANTED any warm bodies.
2) Most people were more open minded because they say what WWII did to the Yidden spiritually as well as physically. Most people had family that wasnt’ frum anymore after WWII.
So much of today is shtiyut (stupidity). When I got married, it was considered a major faux pas to wear black to a wedding. Now? And why is it ok for the Chosson or kalla’s sisters to wear colors but not anyone else? When I got married, during the summer about half of the Aguda where I davened wore straw hats! And we were still an Aguda shul.
People should not send their child to a school were the child is the frumest or the least frum. A MO parent who wants to send their child to a Chassidic yeshiva is looking for trouble. The same with a Chassidic parent who wants to send a child to a MO school.
WE HAVE ALL GONE CRAZY! I also have problems with people who wear “the uniform” then walk into a store and treat the staff like dirt. I have problems with people who wear “the uniform” and then do things that hurt people. Like the heads of a certain major frum organization that threaten to blacken reputations of people that threaten their power. Then these people sit there self-righteously and wonder why people are off the derech. DUH?!
OK, I’ve raised my issues with things, here is my answers: In places where there is a choice (like NY), schools have a right to restrict their school to people who uphold their levels i.e. Cholov Yisroel or not, denim or not, sleaves all the way to the wrists or 3/4 sleaves, white shirts or not. In places where there is not choice (like many places out of town), schools cannot deny a child a Jewish education. If your community school isn’t frum enough, MOVE. You can’t scream that everyone should change for you.
Schools also have to realize that if you squeeze kids too much, they will rebel. SOME things must be allowed. Pick your battles.
Sorry for the long post, but this bugs me alot!December 27, 2011 2:19 am at 2:19 am #839785Sam2Participant
MDD: Nowadays I might agree with you. But 60 years ago, when even the most Frum woman would reveal their elbows, I would say that they were relying on existing opinions and not just doing what they wanted.December 27, 2011 2:36 am at 2:36 am #839786
The very frum women never revealed their knees and elbows in public. Not 60 years ago, not 30, and not now. There were shomer shabbos women 60 and 30 years ago as well as now that publicly display their knees and elbows and above. They are doing an aveira. Now. 30 years ago. And 60 years ago. The same a aveira. It wasn’t any more correct then than it is now. And there were very frum women 30 and 60 years ago that would never reveal their knees and elbows in public. Even when sitting.December 27, 2011 4:06 am at 4:06 am #839787
SAM2, in most cases they just did whatever they wanted without any regard for any shittos( which are not to be relied on).Do not be naive!December 27, 2011 4:52 am at 4:52 am #839788
(regarding women 60 years ago) “in most cases they just did whatever they wanted without any regard for any shittos( which are not to be relied on)”.
Oh my! This was the holocaust and post-holocaust upheaval generation and women who wore sleeves at all, during that era, are to be praised! Many doubted the existence of G-d.December 27, 2011 5:08 am at 5:08 am #839789gubbishParticipant
technically, the point of all the guidelines for tznius are so that the woman should appear refined, and stand out as tznius. so in those days woman were being equally tznius. but nowadays were the yeshivish community has formed its own society with its own dress norms, breaking those codes is against halacha. (same goes for the black hat). the problem though, is that tznius (and th black hat) are no longer a thing of respect for religion of HASHEM, but only a thing of peer pressure. In the case of the black hat, now it is no longer required, because lack of it (if it were against halacha) would technically be lack of extra kavod and not a lack in tznius. however tznius is based on accepted dress code, which in the self formed yeshivish community is pretty strict.December 27, 2011 5:39 am at 5:39 am #839790
The type of discussion and heat of the discussion right here would be enough to push anyone OTD. The absolute black and white and no shades of grey arguments of all those who are so sure they are right and no two ways about it. Well I have news for you, YOU weren’t there back then and YOU don’t know what was going on. The norm back then was mixed seating and it was a big effort on the part of the Gedolei Hador at that time to change things to where they are today. And if you think that all communities have shifted over like NY, NJ and Eretz Yisroel you are wrong. From the people that I have met from Chicago it is still the norm there. Which is just an example of the NORM of the time as was the style of the day. Women in general were NOT as immodest as they are today, so it wasn’t all that much of an issue as it is in today’s society.
Women did NOT necessarily cover their hair in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. Sheitels were just coming into their own in the late 60’s. I remember when my own mother put on her first sheitel and started covering her hair. It was when my cousin got engaged and asked his mother to cover her hair because of the family he was marrying into. His mother told my mother (her sister) of the request so she complied as well. She told her sister-in-law (my father’s brother’s wife) and she complied as well as her own sister. This was the domino effect of the time.
I have photos of my FIL and MIL from the early years. My FIL was a Rav who was a mechaber of a sefer (not too shabby) and he didn’t even have a beard. My MIL wore a hat over her very visible hair. When I got married he had a full beard and you couldn’t see a loose hair on her head. Photos of my sisters-in-law when they got engaged showed the knee very obviously, these were Bais Yakov girls who also wore braids.
Please don’t spout what you don’t know. You weren’t there, you didn’t live through it, so don’t jump to judge. There were many gedolim at that time who, believe me you don’t even come up to their “knees” and never will. For you to denounce the women of that time and come out with judgments that they didn’t follow psak halacha is being motzi shem rah on an entire generation of frum eidel women. Basically our mothers and grandmothers and I for one don’t appreciate it. If NOT for them you wouldn’t even be here nor would ANY of you be the frum people that you are. If it wasn’t for them re-establishing frum kehilos and yiddishkeit here in the United States and abroad, If it wasn’t for their pure and selfless emunah and bitachon in Hashem which wasn’t easy at that time, none of us would have what we do. So please, stop being so very smug and all knowing because you really don’t know all that much.December 27, 2011 5:46 am at 5:46 am #839791
gubbish: Um, no. Covering knees and elbows aren’t “guidelines”. They are ironclad laws that must be followed.December 27, 2011 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #839792MorahRachMember
aries. So well said. None of us were there, who are we to judge. Baruch Hashem we didnt not grow up in the 30’s 40’s. It is because of the women in those times, in the US, that halacha and yiddishkeit has been kept, we should be PRAISING them, rather then discussing just how short there skirts may have been, or just how many hairs were sticking out of their hats. When did Torah become a contest? I don’t want my daughters to think that the most important part of there morning is to see who can get the puff of hair in front of their headband higher, as is the concern of many a young bas Torah in BK or Monsey. Something has happened to our priorites, and it needs to change.December 27, 2011 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #839793Feif UnParticipant
There was once a very well known and respected Rav who was in my shul for Shabbos during the summer. I saw his wife in the shul wearing short sleeves.
I won’t write the name of the Rav because as I said, he’s extremely well known and highly respected. I’d like for it to stay that way. If I wrote his name here, he would likely be made fun of, and some people would not respect him as much.
Suffice it to say that there is at least one major Rav that I know of who holds elbows don’t need to be completely covered.December 27, 2011 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #839794
America was a spiritual wasteland until after WWII. The gedolim before the war recommended against moving to America because one was likely to throw their yiddishkeit into the Hudson River as they passed the statue of “liberty”. It was only later when gedolim like R. Aharon Kotler, Satmar Rebbe, R. Moshe Feinstein built Torah and yiddishkeit here that many people stopped doing various aveiros. So it is no raya that people were sinning in the 30s and 40s that that somehow made it right.December 27, 2011 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #839795
The men in most chassidishe shuls in the 1950’s -(60’s?), most didn’t even have a beard! Just as Aries has said, things took a while to flourish and grow to how it looks today.December 27, 2011 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #839796
Respectfully, a refutation means quoting sources, not quoting what you feel the halacha to be. There has been more heat than light shed so far, so I thought it prudent to actually look up the halachos. Those here who are still oseik in torasu umenaso, feel free to correct me where I am wrong and add in additional mareh mekomos.
I read through OC siman 75 with mishna brurah last night and this morning. I also took a look at the aruch hashulchan.
Mishna brura makes it clear that all areas above the knees and elbows must be covered. The heter of less than a tefach of elbow only seems to be in regards to saying krias shma, not if a woman is allowed to walk around like that. Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach holds the elbow itself is like the area above it (dirshu edition notes). This point isn’t clear in the mishnah brurah. The Rem”a paskens that even less than a tefach is assur for saying krias shma if it’s not your wife. Aruch hashulchan argues on this.
The mishna brurah makes clear that there is no tzad heter for showing legs or arms if everyone does it, as they must be covered.
The mishnah brura also says that less than a tefach of the area above the knee is assur even if it’s your wife, since it causes extra hirhur. The aruch hashulchan argues, and says it has the same din as the arm. Rav Henkin quoted above says that less than a tefach of above the elbow is muttar lechatchila, but it seems to argue on Rav shlomo Zalman, who says the elbow itself must be covered even though it’s less than a tefach. Rav Henkin had a “limud zechut” (as in, “I hold it’s assur but perhaps they won’t burn”) if it’s more than a tefach but the sleeves are tight so the body can’t be seen. However, this seems to contradict the gemara which says tefach be’ish ervah. The Chazon Ish holds you need to cover from the elbow to the hand, but he seems to be a daas yachid on this. If there are any relevant igros moshes on it, please let me know. I hope to go to yeshiva soon to check them out.December 27, 2011 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #839797
1)Azolis,I was just responding to suggestions that what was done was somehow-maybe half-muttar.
2) After all the limudei zechus, what was done was still wrong. If someone had a rough childhood situation, and he grows up to be frum and a tremendous ba’al chesed etc., but keeping kosher is just too much for him, is his eating chazir not an aveira?
3) Aries, all the claims about the Gedolim being around are outrageous! They knew their words would not have been heeded.December 27, 2011 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #839798☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Sam, “Not everyone agrees that the elbows and knees must be covered…”
Of those that don’t, 50% of their kids text on Shabbos.
If we weren’t so judgmental about the parents then many of these kids would be in frum schools and would not be texting on Shabbos.
Popa beat me to it, but I’ll also respond to the point of the OP.
How many kids really are in public school because the local cheder or Bais Yaakov didn’t accept them? There’s a lot of room between the frummest schools and public school! The parents who don’t dress according to chassidish or yeshivish standards of tznius rarely want to send to these schools. Their kids are in MO schools.
And those who do want to grow and send their kids to a school which has ideals which are frummer than their own, have a choice to make. Either get rid of the TV (for example) or don’t expect to be accepted.
A school has a right (some would say an obligation) to shield the kids from the more sheltered homes from being influenced, through other students, by the very same secular influences they are moser nefesh to keep out of their own homes. (I’m not referring to a case where there are no other frum schools; that’s a different story)
I blame the parents, not the schools.December 27, 2011 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #839799
btw im not entirely sure why people here seem to think that tznius and l’shem shamayim are mutually exclusive these days…as was pointed out by several users, the standards of tznius in recent years have gone up. i have seen pictures of my grandmother where she wore dresses that didnt cover or cume up to her elbow, but now she wouldnt dream of it. why? because our adherence to tznius has become more stringent. (by our adherence i mean NYC and its environs…i cant speak for out of town)
another thing that our parents and grandparents were more lax on was music. there wasnt much jewish music back then so many if not most listened to whatever non-jewish music they could get their hands on. many of those people wouldnt dream of listening to anything that isnt sold by mostly music today. the standards have changed, is that not l’shem shamayim? today if a school finds a kid with a non-jewish music laden iPod or the like the kid is given detention, the iPod is confiscated and the parents may be called, is that because we’re simply outwardly being more frum while we really are no different from our parents and grandparents? i dont think so. they made us what we are today with all our chumros and hiddurim, it wasnt our invention, i think we can safely say that it was l’shem shamayim.
what about going to dances? i know that was common back in the day, now if it happened a kid would be thrown out of school faster than you could say “off the derech” does that mean that our standards of gender separation have gotten higher because of some bias against women? or was that always halacha and previous generations were lax, for whatever reason, and our new standards are l’shem shamayim? ill go with the latter.
my parents and grandparents used to be a little more lax with kashrus as children. ask your parents and grandparents if they chewed gum that didnt have a hechsher, or ate good and plenty even though it had no hechsher, i think you’ll find that they did. it was very common back then. it wouldnt happen today, and if a kid in school was caught doing it he would get yelled at by his menahel. is that wrong? are our standards in kashrus higher because we’re really less frum? does that make sense? no i’d say its l’shem shamayim.
im not judging previous generations, im sure that our children and grandchildren will have the same conversation as us. but to get stuck in the past and have the attitude that “we did it, if it was good enough for us its good enough for you” is completely ridiculous. what our parents and grandparents did obviously turned us into the people we are today, with all our chumros, and im sure they are and would be proud of us.
as for why a school would refuse to accept a child whose parents are lax on certain issues? firstly because the hashkafah may be wrong in the house of the parents are aware of communal and societal norms and despite that buck them and those hashkafos may rub off on other kids this kid befriends. secondly everyone knows that the responsibility of a yeshiva extends past the walls of the yeshiva to the entire spiritual wellbeing of every student. kids have friends over, and the yeshiva has no interest in that friend being negatively influenced, or introduced to things he may not otherwise have been aware of.
so the argument can be made that accepting this kid will influence him positively and that will diffuse to the parents and the whole family will grow as a result of the yeshiva accepting this kid, but realistically which is more likely: a kid influencing his family positively, or a kid influencing another student negatively? i would say the latter.
this is all for NYC or any major jewish community where there is a dearth of yeshivos from which to choose; there is always a yeshiva for everyone. in out of town communities this is obviously a much tougher decision for school administrators.
one thing i will say though (in addition to the many things i said above), is that if a kid isnt accepted my mainstream yeshivos then there are other places for him to go be it a kiruv yeshiva or maybe a more modern orthodox yeshiva or maybe a mix of both depending on the exact situation. however there is a certain stigma to attending such yeshivos and that, many times, backs parents into a corner and, in a way, forces them to got their kid into a mainstream yeshiva or else. i know many guys who should never have been in a regular yeshiva but were anyway because to their parents the idea of them attending anything but was untenable and they came off worse for it. i also know guys whose parents and rebbeim realized early on that mainstream yeshiva was not for him and switched him to another, more off the beaten track yeshiva and today hes doing just fine. its possible that its coincidence, but i dont think so.December 27, 2011 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #839800
mdd, outrageous? Not quite, they understood that Teaching Torah comes along with derech eretz, something many have forgotten today!!! Also they understood the quality of people form the inside out, as I said before and they weren’t trying to outfrum the frumest. It was a time for healing and rebuilding one step at a time, and that is something that this generation needs to learn as well.
Learn to pick your battles and you will have better success. What is more important the neshoma of the child or the levush?????? Will the children from the home of a family a little to the left influence the other children or will the other children have more of an influence on them AND will the child who learns in this yeshiva influence their parents?????
Why do the yeshivas have such a lack of confidence in themselves and their students that they fear so much from a young innocent child that is a little bit different than them? Look at what SHUVU has done in E”Y with russian children. Parents don’t even have to be frum and there children go to Shuvu schools started by Rav Pam. The children all learn about Torah and Yiddishkeit and the childrn turn Frum and influence their parents to do the same.
When a child comes to a school, the school gives the rules to the parents. If they agree then so be it. Why are they so afraid? The child has to conform to the rules. It is so sad how everyone is running around chasing their tales being busy with everyone else’s business. Does the yeshiva want to know if the outwardly “kosher” parents cheat on their taxes? Take off their yarmulka when in the presence of goyish business associates, act differently on vacation where Hashem does NOT exist (Miami, Hawaii, Caribbean, etc.) after all, how does that influence their children???????? What about the administration themselves? Are they perfect beyond scrutiny?
Give me a break, this is the hypocrisy the kids see and are turned off by. Not only the kids that are affected by but other kids who see it and are disgusted by it. It is just plain “stinkin thinkin”.December 27, 2011 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #839801
aries: why do you feel the need to employ the use of straw men to make your point?December 27, 2011 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #839802Menachem MelamedParticipant
To Jothar – I am impressed that you researched the sources. I cannot understand why chatrooms and the Coffeeroom are taking the place of research and asking one’s Rav. The reason that Shimush Talmidei Chachomim is so important is that we need guidance to know how to apply halocha in any given situation. If someone has not been guided in how to derive halocha from sefarim by his rabbeim – even research in sefarim is insufficient. Ezra HaSofer did not leave Bavel for Eretz Yisroel as long as his rebbe, Boruch ben Neriah was alive.
1- We must all have a real live rebbe for guidance.
2- those who are able should research the sources like Jothar.
3- I was fortunate enough to be educated by the Gedolai Yisroel, not Internet chatrooms. I suggest that every man and woman connect to qualified rabbanim and madrichim.
4- I learned from numerous Gedolei Yisroel that we must not “bash” other Jews (even if minimally observant) – no matter how strongly we may disagree with them.
5- I was fortunate to see the pleasant way the Gedolei Yisroel related to “not yet frum” Jews and nochrim.
If we all start behaving like we should more of the secular Jews will desire to copy our ways, and we will cause HaShem’s Name to be beloved.December 27, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #839803yitzchokmParticipant
do you agree that there are many knds of schools and yeshivas out there, to meet different kinds of haskofas?
If you do, why are you complaining that a school who does not agree with your haskofas will not accept you?
Why would you want to be there to begin with?December 27, 2011 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #839804
Many good comments here. Another case in point: Before the seforim of the Chfetz Chaim became widespread, EVERYONE was talking lashon hora, including the biggest rebbetzins. Does that make it right?December 27, 2011 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #839805
ha ha ha ha “Stinkin thinkin” I never heard that one before. LOVE IT.December 27, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #839806
Menachem Melamed, saying “research in seforim isn’t the same as shimmush talmidei chachamim” is not a taanah to uproot the halacha as stated by the mishna brurah,the aruch hashulchan, and every other mainstream poseik. Which “qualified rabbeim and gedolim” of yours argued on the halachos I stated? I can’t find any.
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