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There’s a big difference between giving information to a stranger before the couple has even met, and withholding vital information once the couple is far along (or engaged!).
As far as I understand the halachos of shmiras halashon in regard to shidduchim, Aries is correct in not giving sensitive information to a stranger on the phone – she has loyalty to the person that she knows, and you never know what loose-lipped person will let that information out to people who shouldn’t have it. I don’t think you’re allowed to lie, but you are allowed to avoid the questions. If you want to make sure that people are being completely candid with you, call people that *you* know, or have someone that knows both you and the reference make the call.
However, in Ofcourse’s case, the fact that people knew that a major issues hadn’t been disclosed and nobody said anything about it is a BIG problem. It *was* the chosson’s/parents’ responsibility to divulge the information, but if they didn’t, someone else should have alerted the kallah to the issues. Ofcourse, did you ask a shailah at that point?
Story:
A relative of mine (Let’s call him Yechezkel) suggested a shidduch and acted as the go-between. The night before the couple was going to get engaged, there was a knock on Yechezkel’s door. It was the boy’s Rosh Yeshiva. He said that the boy had had a mental breakdown of sorts a couple of years ago and had been hospitalized for a few days. He said he knew that the boy’s side had not told the girl’s side about it and that it HAD to be told. He told Yechezkel to make sure the girl’s side found out about it – but to make sure that the information wasn’t traced back to the Rosh Yeshiva.
Yechezkel told the girl’s side about it, which resulted in them making calls to the boy’s parents and then doctors to make an informed decision. The whole time the boy’s side was poo-pooing it and saying that it was no big deal and not wanting to give information.
In the end, the girl’s side broke off the shidduch – NOT because of the mental health issue, but because the boy’s side had not been forthcoming about the issue and the girl’s side felt that the boy’s side could not be trusted.
mdd: You simply have a very lax and unserious attitude about marriage.
Read this and the next three comments
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/divorce-stories#post-208524
aries: i agree with you, technically. But i sure liked getting information from the boys rabbeim, much better. I would ask them a question, and then they would ask me questions to get a better picture of who i was, where i was coming from, and to clarify what i meant by the question (such as “is the boy deep/ can he learn?” and then they would really answer me – often, i would get from the rabbeim that this boy is not what i’m looking for, while others would get upset that i wasn’t going out with such and such a boy. i’ve had rabbeim tell me point blank about the boy’s emotional history – ex. had breakdown, took medication, etc. – and nobody else even mentioned it.
Do research which is vital. More important is knowing the right questions to ask. See the previos post for some good ideas. Foe example: Ask what year the person is born in, not how old they are(its too easy to skew the # not the year) . About mental health ask straight out. If you ask the right questions to the right person you’ll get answers eventually. A professional once said Ask as many questions as you want to as many people as you want.
Some of the opinions above remind me of the reason a Chasida is a Treif bird. She’Oseh Chesed Im Mineha -performs Chesed for her own kind. This somehow doesnt mesh with Kol Yisroel Chaverim.
Allow me to quote a post on rabbihorowitz.com that came up on a search for the Chasida bird:
Talmud Yerushalmi Yuma 4b and Talmud Bavli Yuma 9b together state that the roof of the First Temple was destroyed and we were exiled for 70 years for the sins of murder, incest, and idol worship. During the Second Temple, even though the Jews were diligent in the study of Torah, were zealous in the keeping of the mitzvos, and the Jews had fine manners (or were practicers of kindness), the Temple was destroyed to its utter foundation (“Strip her, strip her to her utter foundations” Ps.137:7) and we are exiled for over a thousand years, solely because of the sin of causeless hatred.
One has to wonder, how could they have been practicers of kindness, well mannered, yet at the same time be guilty of Sinas Chinam?
Remember that Chazal has taught us that “Anyone who lives in a generation that the Temple does not exist in, it is as if it was destroyed in their generation. Look around us and see people who perform unbelievable acts of kindness and are well mannered…to their own kind, like the treif “Chasida” bird. Yet hateful and cruel to those who are not of their kind.
It is this very lack of respect for others, lack of tolerance for those different, combined with the misplaced haughtiness of sadly mistaken self-righteousness, that is the very cause of the destruction of our holy Bais Hamikdash and the repeated destruction of our very communities.
Enough is enough. Klall Yisroel needs to focus first and foremost on learning the halachos of mitzvos Bein Adam L’Chaveiro and then start practicing chumros in Bein Adam L’Chaveiro. For this is where our true weakness has been ever since the first nuclear Jewish family, the sale of Yosef by his own brothers. This is the breach that needs to be repaired first.
Smartcookie, You are right — I do resent the Chassidim. If the Moderator lets me, I”ll even tell you why.
not quite
Yes of course I heard it from Rabbonim. I went to shiurim about Shmiras Haloshon and I asked specific questions. This is a very big issue and as I said, there is someone out there for everyone. You just can’t take it upon yourself to go spread information on everyone.
I saved 3 girls from suicide. Two of which are married today. Do you think it was my place to tell their future spouses about it? NO!!!!!! Of course it was not my place. Whatever they were going through at that time was an issue at that time. They got over it and it is not who they are today. Did they tell their spouses about it? Yes I believe they did, but it certainly was not my place to do it.
If I know that someone is on medication, it is also not my place to disclose. If the medication helps them to function normally then kol hakovod, what is wrong with that? Should they disclose it, yes they should and I have discussed this with Rabbonim. I was told by the Rabbonim that it was NOT necessary to disclose, but I don’t necessarily agree with that. Once you are well into the shidduch and you feel you can really trust each other I feel you should find a way to discuss these things without causing the other party to panic.
Mdd- its ok, I don’t need to know why. We can all find reasons to resent each other.
But it’s up to us to love every Jew and not to feel superior because neither of us really are superior.
I work on that all my life. You should too.
And Mdd- I’m just thinking about the irrationality here. What does our way of Shidduchim have to do with your taste of Chassidus?
“When you go out to date, there’s very little you can actually see”
I disagree. In fact, when sitting in the girls dining room, with your parents in the next room, you are on your BEST behavior, and only say what you were coached to say. 80% of the time, the conversation follows a basic script, with the girl doing most of the talking.
OTOH, take a boy, put him in traffic or a resturant or out for a few hours, and you’d be surprised at what you can learn.
Aries –
You are 100% right about not disclosing info to a stranger. I’m in a similar situation, where I know (suspect?) negative information about someone, and when called about that person, and asked about personal / medical matters, I tell them, “I really don’t know the answers to these qustions, call Rabbi ______, who knows the family very well.”
The rov knows what and when to disclose. For all I know, he might withhild the info until after date # 1, and then call the other side back and tell more. If its a dead end, why spread the private news?
Still, this is a tough call. If it were my child, I’d ask to meet the family face to face, before the engagment is announced and ask them, “is there anything you want to tell us before we finalize things?”
That way, if I find out later, I can always know, I tried. In the end, its in Hashem’s hands, so try as you might, you still need to rely on Hashem.
bpt, “I really don’t know the answers to these qustions, call Rabbi ______, who knows the family very well.”
If the one asking the health question asks you: I’ll call them as well, but is there anything that you personally ARE aware of?
What would you say?
At that point, do you
1. lie and say no
2. say you’ve got to go and hang up (dead give away)
3. pause and say I’d rather not answer that (dead give away)
4. get somewhat upset at the caller and say I already told you to call __________ (dead give away)
5. say what you do know
6. say or do something I havent thought of
Ofcourse and Smartcookie, I agree fully.
I am really impressed with how much bad information you all have been able to get before going through with a shidduch. Unfortunately I know of too many cases where they only find out after the marriage…..I wish everyone would be more honest in giving info… though the cases I know of, people wouldn’t be able to give over the info. it was kept top secret. then again it’s the family who is fooling you….
May I ask Aries, are you a professional therapist?
“When you go out to date, there’s very little you can actually see”
The malbim in parshas vayeira is a must for anyone involved in shidduchim.
apushatayid, please share.
Mdd- which part of my words do you agree with?
is there anything that you personally ARE aware of?
Since most of what people “know” is really just conjecture and hearsay (unexplained trips out of town, sudden weight loss, police cars making house calls) there is really no way to KNOW if there are illnesses, or sholom bayis problems. So being evasive is not really an outright lie.
Thats why its crucial to talk to the perspective person’s Rov / Rebbe. They KNOW, because they’ve been told.
That said, if I cannot give a 100% stellar, squeaky clean report about someone, I tell the person, I’m on my way out to maariv (or wherever), let me call you back in < x time> minutes.
Then I call the person, and tell them, so and so is asking about you. How do I explain <whatever the issue>.
But B”H everyone I’ve been called (or place a call) about is someone I would consider for a match myself, so I can be as truthful as possible.
About the importance of Ahavas Isroel and Anova.
If all people in your community looked at it that way, I would not have a problem with them.
Her community is renown for Ahavas Yisroel on an unprecedented scale in our society.
Do you mean Parshas Chayei Sara by any chance?
Parshas Chayei Sara Malbim – An Important Shidduch Lesson
Avrohom had three good friends who believed in Hashem, Aner Eshkol and especially Mamrei who gave him advice to go through with his Bris Mila. Yet not only did Avrohom reject their daughters as suitable matches for Yitzchok, but he went as far as making Eliezer swear that he will not turn to them for a Shidduch. Instead Avrohom told him to to go to his own family, to the land Nachor his brother, where Idol worship was rampant. Why did Avrohom, the battler against avodah zara, show such a degree of nepotism?
The Malbim brings from the Ran that aveiros in the Torah come in two forms, those that destroy the neshama such as bad hashkafos, and those that affect the guf as well, which include bad middos such as jealousy and anger that make the body stir. In the latter case this nature is passed down through the generations, as children often can suffer from the same character flaws as their parents. This was the case of the Kenanim and therefore Avrohom did not want to be Mishadech with them.
Nachor’s problem was purely religious philosophy. This affected the soul and not the genes. It was a mind problem that would not necessarily affect future generations, who may reach thewir own conclusions. Religion is more easily reparable and parents are not an indication of their children. Bad middos are trickier and not likely to disappear. Something to keep in mind when choosing a Shidduch. Avrohom did!
I am a Certified Life Coach, Child Advocate and mentor. I work with the Rabbis in my community and with the at-risk population. I ask questions when necessary and stay away from Loshon Horah, not everything is everyone’s business.
If someone were to ask me straight out, I would have some questions as well:
Why are you asking me this?
Is something wrong with your child?
Did someone tell you something?
What are you afraid of?
Why is this a concern of yours?
And of course I would want to know who they are, who there Rav is, etc.
mdd: Seems to me, you’re being oiver everyday on Lo Sisa Es Achicha Bilvavecha and Veahavta Lerieacha. Which is worse than anything the chassidim do to cause your hatred.
I think I seldom hear goyim express their anti-semitism in such an open and hateful manner.(And when they do, you get real scared, right?)
Besides, what’s suddenly happened with Lashon Hara?? Where are all those who always say we have to be Dan Lekaf Zechus MO, OTDers etc.? Doesn’t Lashan Hara apply to chassidim too?
aries2756, OY VA VOY!
How do you go about getting information for your nearest and dearest? How do you respond to the questions you offered above when they’re asked of you, while you’re seeking Shidduch information? Please give sample answer, one by one. Or do you somehow avoid asking health questions? In any case, if you were asked these questions after asking ANY question, how would you respond?
Why are you asking me this?
Is something wrong with your child?
Did someone tell you something?
What are you afraid of?
Why is this a concern of yours?
And of course I would want to know who they are, who there Rav is, etc.
Personally, if I was asked the above questions, when looking for Shidduch info, Id say fuegedabatit! Id think Im getting far away from these folks if theyre friends or relatives! That would probably end that Shidduch idea!
Mdd- so you resent Chassidim because they feel superior?
This is a major stereotype. Chassidim is a general statement for thousands of Yiddin. Start looking at us individually.
Im not bothered when someone feels better than me. I think of that person as perhaps not the smartest.
Aries: I agree with you if the issue is about medication. However, if the issue is about him/her being abusive natured, then I feel the information should be forthcoming, on the grounds of “Lifnei Iveir Lo Sitein Michshol”.
Actually, I meant Chaye Sara. Share? The malbim is available for all who want to learn it. He discusses why eliezer chose to meet a girl away from her parents as opposed to her house among other things (it came to mind because someone commented about this specific idea earlier in thread).
I have a mental health issue and I spoke to a rav a number of months ago and was told that I should not tell until the third date and that my references do not have to say anything unless specifically asked BUT that is with me telling the boy on date three so nothing will be withheld when iy”H going into a marriage. I was told that the references can not lie for me!!
Also, so my references wouldn’t feel uncomfortable about what to say, I coached them (with the ravs guidance). They feel much better about being my references and I feel confident going into my dates!
Happiest- that was a very smart move. People have to face their challenges and make them work for the best, instead of ignoring them and causing problems.
May you find your Bashert soon!
Truthfully no one abuses in public, so that information would really only be known within the home. It isn’t likely that people in the neighborhood would know this.
As far as answering my own questions, I personally never called anyone for information without introducing myself and letting them know something about my child and what I was looking for. I also told them how I got their name and how I was connected to that person so they understood the sheichus. If the person didn’t want to tell me something but knew who gave me their name, they could always call that person that did know them and speak honestly with them and let them decide what to do.
Lets say someone called me, introduced herself to me and said she was a friend of my sister’s. I might not divulge anything to her, but I might call my sister and ask how close she is with this person and what they are like and what they are looking for. If she tells me she is a neighbor of hers or she is very close with her and she is a forgiving person and can look away from certain things I might tell my sister to tell her to call me back. If she says she is close to her and was looking for perfection I might tell my sister to tell her the shidduch is not for her and I am not going to go into details.
But I am not going to divulge information to strangers who might make more of it than it is and might spread rumors on the person and make it even more difficult for them to get the proper shidduch. I don’t have the RIGHT to do that. I also don’t need to make enemies in my own neighborhood if this stranger tells the shadchan that I said this and that about the prospect. I don’t have to risk the prospect’s reputation for a stranger. On the other hand, if that person called the prospect’s RAV, they might set up an appointment to speak in private and might be able to give over information and not make it sound so terrible if it really is not shayach to effect the marriage, or he might want to meet the parents and explain what the situation is but tell them in such a way that he is reassured that they won’t be going around spreading the information. The Rav might want to find out who the Shadchan is and actually call the shadchan to find out what she actually knows about the prospect and the issues involved. A Rav certainly should know how to handle the situation better. If the Rav calls the shadchan his question would be why did you redt this shidduch, why do you think this is a match? How well do you know the prospects involved? I think that would be the best thing possible.
Observanteen,I do not hate the Chassidim, but I do have ta’anos. And I am not such a dunner le’kaf zechus when it comes to the MO and OTDs. There are Halochos about this.
Smartcookie, I guess, I’ve heard and seen too much of it — not only of ga’ava, but also of very dire lack of Ahavas Yisroel. I, obviously, do not mean you or other Chassidim who are not like that. Also, I am a Ba’al Teshuva — I became frum after being exposed to Yiddishkeit.
aries, Im a little wary of all this rethinking what to say and calling back, whether or not to say, whats for who to know and whats for who not to know, and relying on perceptions of people (perfectionist or not), because people get nervous and just drop the idea. Sounds to me like too much reliance on an individual’s tastes and opinions. We are all only Basar V’Dom. The True Judge is up there. I dont think thats the best Mehalech.
Im MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE wary about telling someone “the shidduch is not for her and I am not going to go into details”. Imaginations go wild, and thats fuel for Lashon Hara.
Im MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE wary about telling someone “the shidduch is not for her and I am not going to go into details”. Imaginations go wild, and thats fuel for Lashon Hara.
Same here. I would never tell this to someone. But for a different reason:
Hashem is the ultimate Mezaveg Zivuggim. He has done some very interesting ones already. Who am I to decide if this Shidduch is/isnt for you? Maybe Hashem has a plan that doesn’t look right to the human eye.
Kol Hakovod, so you handle inquiries your way and I will handle inquiries the way MY Rov taught me how to do it, as well as the way I was taught from shiurim and the Chofetz Chaim society. I guess that settles it.
aries, for clarity’s sake, was your Rov’s or the Chofetz Chaim’s advice to ask the caller:
Why are you asking me this?
Is something wrong with your child?
Did someone tell you something?
What are you afraid of?
Why is this a concern of yours?
And of course I would want to know who they are, who there Rav is, etc.
Aries- I’m just wondering how you aren’t scared about taking the responsibility of pushing away a Shidduch by saying- it’s not for you.
That certainly did not come from the Chofetz Chaim or a Rov!
My wife and I are prime references for several in the parsha neighbors of ours. We have no problem answering what we believe are foolish questions with questions of our own, such as “why do you feel that is important?” or “your kidding, right?”. When people try to explain why they think it is important, they sometimes come to the conclusion on their own that they just asked a ridiculous question. There are times we feel the questions are so personal and so intrusive on a persons privacy we answer, why dont you go out and ask him/her directly.
smartcookie, canine & ofcourse. I see your not done. So since you ask me very pointed questions I am going to do the same.
How old are you?
How many shiduchim have you been involved in?
How many calls have you gotten in regard to information?
Please answer the above questions and I will continue answering yours.
71
Dozens
Many hundreds
canine, then you know ALL the answers and you have no need to ask me any questions!
Aries- I’m a young mother of a few (figure about how old I can be).
Yes, I’ve been involved in Shidduchim a lot since my mom is a shadchan.
And boy oh boy I used to get loaded with info calls.(Much less these days).
Please don’t get offended. Your way isn’t only the right way. I was just wondering about you specifically telling the caller- the shidduch isn’t for you. How do you know that?
2756: That’s correct. I didn’t in fact ask you any question. I merely stated a fact.
Ok, smartcookie, I would only be able to tell that to someone I know, or someone who specifically told me about themselves and their child and what they are looking for. If the person they called me about is someone I know well and it was matim to them I would give them the answers appropriate to what they were looking for because it was shayach and the information that I knew was helpful to the shidduch. If I knew them personally or after they told me about themselves etc and the information I knew of the person they inquired about was not matim to them or there was a big issue with them that would be an appropriate shidduch for instance I know that the boy likes to drink or I know he slept around or I know the girl isn’t a virgin and that would not sit right with this family, i don’t necessarily want to say it outright but I can tell them the shidduch is not for them.
There are things that I know about kids that not everyone knows and I am just not willing to share such information. It is not for public knowledge. Kids do turn their lives around and it is up to them to tell their stories to their future spouses, not me. I am NOT a yenta and I want to see everyone succeed and have a bright future. Just because things were bleak in their pasts do not mean they will have to continue in the darkness for the rest of their lives.
So I do not have a problem telling someone the shidduch is NOT for them if I believe that there are things that I know about a person that the caller will not be able to look away from, but there is no need for them to know that information and spread it.
Look here is a true scenario for you, you tell me how you would handle this. A friend of my son spent part of his year in Israel in jail for selling drugs. He is now in Law school and I am sure will make a good shidduch one day. If I am called about information (because he practically lives in my house) am I obligated to “tell”? Should this mistake follow him the rest of his life? Is it shayach to his future marriage? Will it truly make a difference?
aries:
How old are you? Irrelevant to the discussion.
How many shiduchim have you been involved in? I set up a couple of hundred dates in the last 2 -3 years.
How many calls have you gotten in regard to information? More than I can count.
Please answer the above questions and I will continue answering yours. Thanks!
btw, how does the fact that canine is 71, etc tell you he/she has all the answers. Only one G-d in Heaven does! The longer Im involved in Shidduchim, the more I see I dont know, and that G-d runs the world and the less likely I’d say a Shidduch isnt for any individual. The older I get, the more humble I get, bec I see I know and can predict compatibility, and everything else in life, less and less! Can I rent your crystal ball?
A fellow Basar v’Dom, Ofcourse
I think everyone is in agreement that it is vital to get information before dating. The disagreement seems to be, exactly what information is vital, prior to agreeing to a date.
mdd
I’m sure you have your reasons for your resentment of chassidim.
Whatever your story is, please try to tone down on the animosity when posting. Since we’re not really sure why you harbor such resentment, your opinions come across as unreasonable at best, pretty absurd at worst.
If we were clued in on what your beef is, maybe you wouldn’t come across as being such a bigot. Right now, you do.
Aries- in extreme cases where you don’t want to reveal details, then your only choice would be to discourage them from that Shidduch.
But under normal circumstances, I wouldn’t do it.
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