Interesting Customs on Pesach

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  • #1254034

    mik5
    Participant

    No matzah other than by sedarim (Liska Rebbe and others); Briskers (to some extent)

    [How does the Liska Rebbe fulfill kiddush b’makom seuda? By drinking an additonal revi’is of wine? This is actually a leniency – as both the Gra and Rebbe Akiva Eiger were not in favor of anything other than kiddush b’makom seuda gemura. How does he fulfill the mitzvah of having 3 seudos on Shabbos?]

    To use machine matzah even for the 1st kezayis by the seder (Rav Isser Zalmen Meltzer) [however, according to the Divrei Chaim, machine matzah is chametz]

    Not to say the word bread or bagel (what on earth is the reason for this one)?

    No gebrots (I don’t hold of this one, as I have no intention of being frummer than the Vilna Gaon)

    #1254036

    Meno
    Participant

    Can you say baguette?

    #1254040

    Chortkov
    Participant

    No gebrots (I don’t hold of this one, as I have no intention of being frummer than the Vilna Gaon)

    Just an observation – why did you feel the need to point out that you don’t keep this one because you wouldn’t want to be frummer than the Vilna Gaon more than the others? Do you keep all the other ‘chumros’ you mentioned?

    And is the reason you don’t keep it really because you don’t want to be frummer than the Vilna Gaon?

    #1254042

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    mik5: do you wear tefillin on Chol Hamoed?

    #1254048

    mik5
    Participant

    No, I don’t wear tefillin on Chol Hamoed.

    #1254052

    mik5
    Participant

    Let’s put it this way: If the Vilna Gaon ate gebrots (and laughed about the custom not to), and the Chasam Sofer ate them, and the Chazon Ish ate them, and Rav Moshe ate them, and Rav Belsky ate them, and Rav Shmuel Berenbaum ate them, what is the point for me not to eat them? I should be a bigger tzaddik than the Chazon Ish?

    [For the record, the Steipler, whose rebbe muvkah was the Chazon Ish, did not eat gebrots until it became impossible for him to eat regular matzah due to health reasons, but that is because the Steipler’s father was Chassidic. Another issue where the Steipler did not hold like the Chazon Ish is in the matter of krias Shema. The Chazon Ish holds you can rely on the Gra’s zman without a problem, whereas the Steipler was extraordinarily careful about following the zman of the MA and was even concerned about clocks being off in shul.]

    I ate machine matzah as well as hand matzah by the seder.

    I do not follow the opinion of the Liska Rebbe, but it does make sense to minimize the amount of matzah that one eats (like the Briskers are noheg) since the most dangerous food to eat on Pesach is matzah (especially hand matza), where if it wasn’t baked properly, it would be chametz gomur.

    #1254054

    Meno
    Participant

    This has nothing to do with being more or less frum. It has to do with minhag. If you told any of those gedolim you listed that you have a minhag not to eat gebrokts, I’m sure they would tell you to stick with your minhag.

    #1254056

    Chortkov
    Participant

    You don’t see the point in being as frum as the Steipler?

    If you would be מקבל on yourself not to eat gebrokts, do you think that would be a Neder L’dvar Mizvah? The Chasam Sofer did.

    For the record, I also eat gebrokts. But not for the reasons you stated.

    #1254059

    mik5
    Participant

    A minhag cannot overrirde a chiyuv d’oraysa. The Gra felt that being strict about gebrots comes at the expense of simchas yom tov.

    Chacham Ovadia was fond of saying, ‘He who adds, subtracts.’ With every chumra, you have a loss [from another angle]. Such as those people who follow the shiur of the Chazon Ish for reviis for arba kosos (5.3 oz) but they are unable to drink the whole cup, and really the halacha is that l’chatchila you should drink the whole cup. So their chumra (of using a bigger shiur) results in a kula (they end up being yotzi only b’dieved because l’chatchila you have to drink the whole cup).

    Or people who drink to excess on Purim (to be yotzi) and perhaps as a result they miss Maariv and Krias Shema and they are mevatel a mitzvas aseh d’oraysa of krias Shema.

    Or people who have a “minhag” not to learn on nittel nacht and it comes at the expense of the chiyuv d’oraysa of talmud torah.

    #1254068

    mik5
    Participant

    Sometimes people have minhagim that are contrary to halacha. Example: The minhag of nittel nacht is contrary to halacha. The minhag of the Liska Rebbe not to eat matzah was vehemently opposed by some rabbis, including Rabbi E. Waldenberg, as being contrary to halacha.

    The minhag is to bow when saying Baruch ata Hashem in me’ein sheva Friday night. However, technically you are not supposed to bow in any place where Chazal did not institute to bow, and here we don’t find (in the Shulchan Aruch) that there is any takana to bow. Nevertheless, one should bow because that is the minhag. (Rav Elyashiv talks about it.)

    The minhag is to eat before shofar. However, according to Rav Henkin, this minhag is shelo k’din. (Rav Henkin literally begged the rosh yeshiva of BMG to abolish this minhag).

    #1254069

    mik5
    Participant

    The Steipler and the Chofetz Chaim were two gedolim who did not eat gebrots (the Steipler was later mattir neder) but permitted their families to eat them. The Pri Chadash and the Vilna Gaon made fun of this chumra.

    [For the record, Reb Aryeh Leib Kagan writes about the Chofetz Chaim that the latter adopted and kept every good practice/ custom that he ever heard of.]

    If someone has a mesora not to eat gebrots, that is one thing. But in the absence of such a mesora, there is no advantage (halachically) to refrain from eating them, and his loss is bigger than his gain.

    #1254072

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So the Chofetz Chaim was frummer than the Vilna Gaon?

    #1254074

    mik5
    Participant

    Again, the Chofetz Chaim permitted his family to eat gebrots. His own decision not to was a personal stringency, not meant to be copied by others.

    Much more important than the so-called “prohibition” of not eating gebrots is, for example, to keep yoshon and to be makpid about zmanim (for Mincha and krias Shema). A person has to know what is the ikar and what is tofel. People who are careful with gebrots are not necessarily careful about other things that are real halachos (e.g., lashon hara). We have to get our priorities straight.

    #1254075

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    It is known that the Kamenetzky mishpacha minhag is to eat gebrokts although R’ Yaakov did not. To avoid eating in someone’s house he told them he didn’t eat gebrokts. Since R’ Yaakov was makpid on Midvar Sheker Tirchak he never ate gebrokts after that.

    mik5: There is also a minhag not to eat before Tekias Shofar. Also, my kos is in accord with the Chazon Ish and I drink the full cup.

    #1254076

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    BTW, I say V’shamru Leil Shabbos and say all the harachamons in bentching. Am I frumer then the GRA?

    #1254081

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is that a yes or a no?

    #1254088

    mik5
    Participant

    To say Veshomru is a question of making a hefsek in tefilla according to both the Gra and the Baal HaTanya.
    To say the Harachamnos on Shabbos – the Gaon did not say them b/c he felt that it was in the category of making personal requests. However, here the minhag is not like the Gra (unless you are a Chaim Berliner).

    It should be noted that with all due respect to the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Moshe felt that if there is a machlokes between the MB and the Aruch HaShulchan, we should go like the Aruch HaShulchan because he was a rav and the Chofetz Chaim was not a rav. However, the yeshivishe velt is noheg that the MB is the posek acharon.

    #1254092

    mik5
    Participant

    For obvious reasons, I will not answer the question of whether the Chofetz Chaim was frummer than the Vilna Gaon.

    #1254096

    mik5
    Participant

    Rav Y. Kamenetsky felt that halachically there is no prohibition at all with eating gebrots, and he said what he said for a different reason.

    #1254097

    mik5
    Participant

    The chassidim of the Tzaddik of Sanz were in Pressburg on Passover, guests at the Chasam Sofer’s table.

    When the chassidim were served kneidlach, they were in a quandary, because they had never eaten gebrokts. One chassid did not eat the kneidlach. The other reasoned, “I’m sitting at the table of the gadol hador. Who am I to be more strict than he is?” and he ate the kneidlach.

    When they reported their visit to the Tzaddik of Sanz, the latter said to the Chassid who ate the kneidlach, “You have earned Olam Haba.” To the chassid who had refused to eat them, the Tzaddik said, “You had better stand near me on Yom Kippur, and I will try to elicit forgiveness for you for trying to be frummer than the gadol hador.”

    #1254098

    Chortkov
    Participant

    His own decision not to was a personal stringency

    But in the absence of such a mesora, there is no advantage (halachically) to refrain from eating them

    Open your eyes, Mik5, you are contradicting yourself. How can you say something is a personal ‘stringency’ if it has no basis and is not in any way a ma’aleh?

    Forgive me, but I want to reask my question: If somebody made a Kabbalah b’Peh b’Hoketz not to eat Gebroktz on Pesach, would you categorize that as a Neder L’dvar Mitzvah?

    #1254104

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “For obvious reasons,…”

    /yes Its obvious that your arguemtn doesnt hold water.
    Keeping Gebrokts isnt about being frummer (at least it shouldnt be) IT is about keeping minhagim, following mesora, which is a key theme of PEsach.

    Your point regarding kula vs chumra is right, but thats true regarding any minhag. I assume you keep Kitniyos even though it too detracts from Simchas Yom Tov.

    “If someone has a mesora not to eat gebrots, that is one thing. But in the absence of such a mesora, there is no advantage (halachically) to refrain from eating them,”

    did anyone say otherwise?

    #1254110

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    For obvious reasons, I will not answer the question of whether the Chofetz Chaim was frummer than the Vilna Gaon.

    That’s okay, you don’t have to answer it twice. You already answered in the affirmative in the OP.

    #1254112

    Chortkov
    Participant

    For obvious reasons, I will not answer the question of whether the Chofetz Chaim was frummer than the Vilna Gaon.

    You sound intelligent enough to understand that DY was not asking your opinion to rate two Gedoilim but was aptly pointing out a basic discrepancy in your posts.

    #1254140

    147
    Participant

    since the most dangerous food to eat on Pesach is matzah Because Matzo is exceedingly high in carbohydrates, and hence very detrimental for we serious weight-watchers.

    Likewise in consideration of our health, our Minhog is not to eat an egg at commencement of Shulchon Oruch, in deference to watching our cholesterol levels.

    #1254139

    The little I know
    Participant

    I reviewed the sugya of gebrokts many times. There are strong reasons to not see it as issur involved. The poskim who weigh in on this almost unanimously conclude that it is completely muttar. The matter at hand is Pesach chumros, which are considered symbolic of the Avodas Hashem vs. Milchemes Hayetzer issue, and the deciding factor is Mesoras Avos. In consistency with the greatest dynamic of Pesach being למען תספר באזני בנך ובן בנך, the handing down of tradition in terms of minhag is to be recognized for how great it is. I have a dear friend who is chassidish in every way, but comes from a choshuv family that have connections to the Chasam Sofer. He eats gebrokts at the seder. It was difficult for his wife to accept that, coming from a family that did not eat gebrokts, but she got used to it. Gebrokts was not associated with any other “kulos”, and is a minhag that deserves the same respect as those considered “chumros”.

    “Not to say the word bread or bagel (what on earth is the reason for this one)?

    There are many groups of chassidim who refused to use the word bread all through Pesach. They also would not say the word “rain” during Sukkos. Perhaps this draws focus to the power of speech, that the spoken word takes on greater value than a passing sound. Maybe, just maybe, we should think of that message when we feel the desire to share lashon horah.

    There are many more very interesting minhagim on Pesach. In Skver, they have a far more restricted diet that anyone else, refusing to eat carrots and several other vegetables that are staples in most other homes. While I have seen some of their published writings about their minhagim, and seen them with a trace of humor, I needed to step back and recognize that their minhagim are mesora based, which is one of the most important pieces of Pesach. Some break the middle matzoh for afikoman, place it on their shoulder, and parade around the table or room, reciting the posuk, “משארותם צרורות בשמלתם על שכמם”. Not having experienced this minhag, I can find it amusing. But there were tzaddikim who practiced this minhag, and others who lauded it even if they themselves did not do it. Choices of vegetable for karpas are also interesting. It is said that the Gerrer Rebbe (בית ישראל) used banana. In the chassidic groups of Ropschitz and Tzanz, they made a brocho of Shehakol on potatoes all year, but בורא פרי האדמה on Pesach. I don’t get that one at all.

    #1254151


    Participant

    In the chassidic groups of Ropschitz and Tzanz, they made a brocho of Shehakol on potatoes all year, but בורא פרי האדמה on Pesach. I don’t get that one at all.

    Ashkenazim make a Brocho of Borei Atzai Besamim on myrtle leaves all week long but say Borei Minai Besamim in Havdalah. I don’t get that one at all.

    What happened to my signature line?

    #1254158

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The משנה ברורה in רצ”ז explains that one.

    (א) מברך על הבשמים – והברכה הוא בורא מיני בשמים על איזה מין שהוא אף שבחול צריך לברך על כל מין כברכתו [דהיינו על עצי בשמים בורא עצי בשמים ועל עשבי בשמים בורא עשבי בשמים וכדלעיל בסימן רט”ז ועי”ש עוד כמה פרטים בזה] מ”מ במו”ש מברכין על הכל בורא מיני בשמים כדי שלא יבואו לטעות ההמון עם שאין הכל בקיאין בכל ברכה המיוחדת אבל בברכה זו יוצא על הכל וכמש”כ שם בס”א ומ”מ לכתחלה טוב יותר שיקח לבשמים דבר שברכתו בורא מיני בשמים כגון המוסק שקורין פיז”ם או נעגילע”ך שגם זה להרבה אחרונים ברכתו הוא בורא מיני בשמים מותר לברך במ”ב על פלפלין שקורין ענגילש”ע פעפע”ר שגם זה הוא בכלל בשמים אבל בסתם פלפלין יש דעות בין הפוסקים והוי ספק ברכה וכן זנגביל שקורין אינגבע”ר

    #1254363

    mw13
    Participant

    I davened in a chassidesha shul this morning where they have separate siddurim that they use only on Pessach. I assume that they eat chometz in shul, and perhaps they have Pessach kiddush there as well…

    Or maybe somebody donated a whole bunch of siddurim and they had nothing else to do with it.

    #1254365

    mw13
    Participant

    mik5:
    Much more important than the so-called “prohibition” of not eating gebrots is, for example, to keep yoshon and to be makpid about zmanim (for Mincha and krias Shema).

    You do realize that these options are in no way mutually exclusive…

    Just because X is more important than Y does not mean that Y should be completely disregarded. And I hope you’ll agree that keeping to a minhag that is several hundred years old does have value.

    It should be noted that with all due respect to the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Moshe felt that if there is a machlokes between the MB and the Aruch HaShulchan, we should go like the Aruch HaShulchan because he was a rav and the Chofetz Chaim was not a rav. However, the yeshivishe velt is noheg that the MB is the posek acharon.

    I’ve been told that the Chazon Ish considered the MB to be the mainstay of Halacha, but this view does seem to be the standard even amongst non-ChazonIshniks.

    #1254374

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    mw13………….

    Our family still uses yuntif machzorim (Kawl Bo) that were printed by Hebrew Publishing Company in the 1920s or 30s. We have about 20 sets that my Great Grandfather bought.
    Therefore, we always use a separate book for Pesach….and Sukkos and Shavous.

    The shul I belonged to years ago in New Haven had these in the Minyan room, but not in the big shul. They passed out of use as most congregants needed something with an English translation and ASrtscroll and others had not yet gone into production of a replacement.

    As for shuls, it might be cheap enough for a sthiebel to buy 50 extra siddurim, but I couldn’t imagine a 300 family synagogue doing so.

    #1254382

    The little I know
    Participant

    In many chassidishe shuls, there is a common practice to provide tikun (liquor with some cake/cookie mezonos). It is usually to observe someone’s yahrtzeit, and that the wishing of l’chaim is traditional. There is more to say about this minhag. What is typical is that one of the tables in the shul is where this happens, and siddurim from all year round are frequently left around. In addition, people tend to use siddurim when there is eating during the year, such as Shalosh Seudos, or if there is a kiddush, sholom zochor, or a tish (if the Rebbe of that shul conducts one). Regardless, finding siddurim in close contact with chometz is common, and it is judged best to simply do a cursory job of cleaning them, and not using them on Pesach.

    #1313399

    mik5
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim was asked about his minhag not to eat gebrots on Pesach, in light of the fact that the Gaon ate gebrots.

    The Chofetz Chaim answered: “Bring me the matzos of the Gaon, and I will also eat them with soup!”

    #1313400

    mik5
    Participant

    I’ve been told that the Chazon Ish considered the MB to be the mainstay of Halacha, but this view does seem to be the standard even amongst non-ChazonIshniks.

    Yes, but the Chazon Ish holds differently from the MB on a number of issues:

    According to the Chazon Ish, you cannot daven Mincha after shkia, even b’dieved. You must finish SE before shkia.
    According to the Chazon Ish, you cannot kick a muktzah object or move it with your elbow; the Mishna Berura allows this.
    According to the Chazon Ish, you can say Vayechulu by yourself Fri night; the minhag is that we say it with a minyan, or at least with one other person.
    The Chazon Ish has really big shiurim for reviis, kezayis….

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