August 22, 2012 10:51 am at 10:51 am #604647YosHChayalMember
Rav Bloch ztl was married (second marriage) to my great grandmother in Cleveland Ohio.
ha-Shalom printed in 1969. When, in 1986, Rabbi Epstein printed a
second edition, he chose to delete the letter out of concern for personal safety. After the first edition was published, many unsold copies were vandalized and burnt by some who felt it an affront to
My respected friend, Mr. David Ulman, Shalom and with eternal blessing!
First I would like to express my gratitude to you for contacting me
to request clarification with regard to the holiday of Independence
without judging or criticizing from afar. Now let me respond to the
matter with clarity.
a) The copy of the advertisement that you sent to me is indeed correct.
Furthermore, this event was attended by the Women of Agudath Israel and Pirhei Agudath Israel. The reason that their attendance
was not mentioned [in the ad] is simply due to the fact that they decided to attend later [after the flyer was published]
b) Before we discuss the actual matter we must first clarify the following questions:
2) Is it worthy of celebration?
3) Is it worthy forthe members of Agudath Israel to unite with the members of Mizrachi in a fashion which allows us to express our approach and influence others to act according to the spirit of Agudath Israel?
In my humble opinion, one must respond to these questions as follows:
1) The independence of Israel and the establishment of the State are
important events in the life of our nation. It is worthy for members
of Agudath Israel to participate when there is a possibility to express their thoughts and views before a large forum in order to influence them regarding the approach of the Agudah and to refute the negative sentiments against Agudath Israel.
2) In my opinion, despite all of the defects and deficiencies in the leadership of the State of Israel, its mere existence, which happened via revealed miracles, is of great significance that deserves recognition and appreciation. This recognition must be publicly expressed for two reasons: First, because the truth must be expressed. Second, that all should know and recognize that our war against the Government of Israel is not targeted against the existence of the State.
3) Participation with Mizrachi in a fashion that Agudath Israel is free to express its views was recognized as the correct approach by creating a religious front that Agudath Israel is always willing to renew.
Although I know that we disagree with Mizrachi on our fundamental beliefs, and in no way are our views consistent with each
other, and consequently our actions are totally different, still there are many issues on which we can work together and, through this, strengthen the ultra-religious and its influence on the life of the nation.August 22, 2012 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #893187
YosHChayal: Beautiful! Thank you for posting this letter!
Now, before he actually comes along:
<Health-Joseph> But the Satmar Rebbe said differently! </Health-Joseph>August 22, 2012 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #893188HealthParticipant
Feif Un – This letter was posted before. And stop with your lies -I’m not Joseph. I know it’s quite shocking to you, esp. in your little MO world, but there are thousands upon thousands who are against the Medina, not just me & Joseph!August 22, 2012 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #893189oyveykidsthesedaysMember
Rav Bloch didn’t just recommend that Yom Ha’atzmaut should be celebrated. He actually was a featured speaker at a Yom Ha’atzmaut celebration in Cleveland, which was organized by Mizrachi of Cleveland in conjunction with Agudath Israel of Mizrachi. Mrs. Mordechai Gifter spoke as well. The event was concluded by singing “Hatikvah” and “The Star-Spangled Banner.” When Rav Bloch was attacked for participation in the event, he responded by writing a letter to defend his position.August 22, 2012 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #893190avhabenParticipant
That was this letter. He minimized his participation by saying he didn’t support the Zionist position at all.August 22, 2012 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #893191Sam2Participant
Avhaben: He had the very logical Shittah that we must recognize the Nissim and be thankful to HKBH for what He gave us in Eretz Yisrael now while at the same time acknowledging that the current government has major faults. You’re repeating what he says. Moreover, by using the far-too-broad term “Zionist”, you’re confusing what he says. The definition of a “Zionist” even then (and certainly nowadays) was very different than the definition of a “secular Zionist” that the Gedolim in the early 20th century fought so strongly against. Almost every religious Zionist will tell you that those secular Zionists did not have Yiddishkeit’s best interests at heart, to say the least. But using one term “Zionist” to combine both camps is misleading and only causes more (unintended, usually) hatred.August 22, 2012 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #893192
avhaben: Wrong! He said he disagreed with the government, but that he has nothing against the existence of the state itself.August 22, 2012 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #893193NaftushMember
Yos – sadly, R. Eliyahu Kitob went through a similar ordeal at around the same time. He wrote a chapter on this topic for Sefer ha-Toda’a that had much the same content and (so the story goes) chose to leave it out due to concern for his publisher’s livelihood. He published it separately as a kuntress; I have a photocopy.August 22, 2012 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #893194oyveykidsthesedaysMember
sorry for the typo. There’s obviously no such thing as “Agudath Yisroel of Mizrachi.” I meant to write “of Cleveland.”August 22, 2012 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #893195
naftush- thank you for telling us about the kunterus.
R”elijahu Kitov (orignal name Tikushinsky, I think) wrote a marvelous sefer (Hatodoah) and understood that the medinah had its wonderful aspects and its dark components. He was drummed out of the chareidi world in those days because of what he wrote.
Incidentally, R” Shlomo Zevin zz’l ,who wrote the seminal sefer “Hamoadim behalocho” writes (under the heading, the churban,under “The fast days”): “it is logical,that with the freeing of the towns of jehudah from the rule of the Goyim and the establishment of the medinat israel-“Ashreinu Shezuchino lekach”- the din of tearing one’s clothing on these towns has lapsed.”
So, many gedolim saw the establishments of the medinah as a sign from HKBH-0 as indeed it is.August 22, 2012 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #893196zahavasdadParticipant
Ok who is going to claim its a forgeryAugust 22, 2012 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #893197
I heard from a famous Rosh Yesiva (back in 1984) that at a rabbinical conference in 1948, after the Satmar Rov spoke against the establishment of the medina, Rabbi Bloch stood up & said (in yiddish) “Satmar ruv maybe you know whats doing in heaven , but in this world this (the medina) is a good thing”
upon hearing this, the Satmar Rov stood up & left , & a large group of rabbonim also left in protest.(even the Klausenberger Rebbe Z”l also left in protest….)
In the 1950’s (I dont recall exactly which year) the Satmar Rov was invited to give a shiur in Telse Yeshiva in Clevland, the Gabbei, Rabbi Y. Ashkenazi who was present at that incident was apprehensive about the Rebbe going to Telse, as there might be some slighting of kovod, the rebbe insisted on going & delivered his famous shiur on Mesectas Nedorim….
After the Shiur, Rabbi Bloch came over to the Satmar Rov & said I’m sorry but the Rov was correct back then.
I promise I heard this from a famous rosh yeshiva, a mechaber of a very popular sefer being learnt in all yeshivas around the world.
no, dont ask, as I wont give out his nameAugust 22, 2012 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #893198
mogold- “ed mipi ed mipi ed mipi ed……..” too many “i heard”…August 22, 2012 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #893199
mogold- “ed mipi ed mipi ed mipi ed……..” too many “i heard”…
This is not a court of law and this is not testimony.
The WolfAugust 22, 2012 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #893200
mogold- “ed mipi ed mipi ed mipi ed……..” too many “i heard”…
Sorry there is only ONE I heard…..I heard this entire story from ONE rosh yeshiva ….. at ONE timeAugust 22, 2012 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #893201
wolfish-forgive me for disagreeing with you. When I have an actual written letter (as witnessed by Yoshchayal), you cannot refute it by some nebulous stories-especially if the first story supports the letter!
Was there anyone there that can attest to what R’Meir Bloch said to the satmarer rebbe when he was in the yeshiva? On the one hand, I have a written letter, I have an open speech before many rabbonim and on the other hand, all I have are a few words said privately. Maybe R’Elyeh just wanted to show the rebbe kovod but did not agree with his views.That was my point.August 22, 2012 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #893202
wolfish-forgive me for disagreeing with you.
Never apologize for disagreeing with me.
When I have an actual written letter
Did I miss something? Mogold said a story. You countered with “eid mipi eid…” My response, very simply is that this is not a court and he is not giving testimony. “Eid mipi eid” doesn’t apply. You may believe (and it may well be so) that you have better evidence to the contrary, but that doesn’t change the fact that “eid mipi eid” has no place here.
The WolfAugust 23, 2012 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #893203
wolfish: see the beginning of the thread and the LETTER attested to by yoshchayal. the letter clearly refutes the supposed words sadi by Rav Bloch to the satmarer rebbe at a shiur in telz. mogold told us two stories- one that supports the letter and the other- from a very private soruce- that seems to conflict with vthe first story. so, I put my trust in written letters and in OPEN meetings (as told by mogold)
I only used the ‘ede mipi ed’ as a parable.August 23, 2012 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #893204
You’re missing the point. I wasn’t judging the strength or weakness of your evidence vs mogold’s reply. I was simply pointing out that your reply wasn’t applicable since we do not adhere to strict courtroom rules of evidence in this forum.
When you said I only used the ‘ede mipi ed’ as a parable., that settles it for me.
That’s all, nothing more.
The WolfAugust 23, 2012 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #893205Shraga18Participant
“So, many gedolim saw the establishments of the medinah as a sign from HKBH-0 as indeed it is.”
So you admit that there were gedolim who didn’t. I am in awe of your erudition and Torah knowledge which obviously must be very great, if you can then say with such certainly that those gedolim were wrong.August 23, 2012 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #893206
shraga18- If you have followed my postings, you will have seen that I appreciate the satmarer shittah snd if you want to follow it- so be it. For me, and for many other millions of yidden, that shitta is not the correct one. I have said many,many times that only history will prove who is right.August 23, 2012 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #893207
We all appreciate that you appreciate what you & millions of yidden mistakenly call “the Satmarer shitah”
The shittah so brilliantly espoused by The Satmar rebbe ZTL via his seforim was not “his” shitah, it was also the shitah of:
The holy Belzer Ruv Reb Yisucher Dov ZTL
The holy Minchas Eluzer of Munkatch ZTL
The holy Reb Elchonon Wasserman ZTL H”YD
The Holy Brisker Rov ZTL
And many many othersAugust 23, 2012 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #893208shlishiMember
It is also the position of Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch, another opponent of Zionism and Jewish sovereignty.August 23, 2012 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #893209
mogold: the first three gedolim that you mentioned died before or during the Holocaust(reb Elchonon) , so we cannot know what their views might have been- see Rav Teichtal zz’l who changed his mind, see the vishnitzer rebbe, the gerrer rebbe , even the belzer rebbe and more who lived and embraced the medinah (not the policies, just the fact of medinat yisroel). Only the Brisker rov zz’l lived during the medinah days and I have yet to heasr that he espoused the satmarer rebbe’s shittah that Medinas Yisroel should be dismantled. Please supply writings to that effect.August 23, 2012 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #893210
shlishi- RSR HIRSCH died in 1888-enough said!August 23, 2012 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #893211
The Belzer and Vizhnitzer Rebbes were and are ardent opponents of zionism, as was the Brisker Rov.August 23, 2012 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #893212
shmoel: please inform em where the belzer rebbe shelita lives and where his “chotzer’ is…..also, please tell me where the wishnitzer rebbe shelita lives and where his “kiryah’ is…..August 23, 2012 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #893213
Same place as the Brisker Rov. Living in EY everyone holds of. The opponents of zionism have been living in EY LONG before the zionists came around.August 24, 2012 1:02 am at 1:02 am #893214
shmoel- first of all, your statement that “living in eretz yisroel everyone holds of” is incorrect. The satmarer rebbe zz’l told his chassidim to leave eretz yisroel and did not believe that it was a mitzvah to libe in eretz yisroel (see some of the comments here of health and vochindik).
Secondly, the belzer rebbe, the vishnitzer rebbe, the gerrer rebbe, the klausenburger rebbe and many others all came to eretz yisroel when the medinah was being established and all of them came after the Holocaust. If they believed ni the satmarer shittah ,they could have gone elsewhere (where the satmarer himself went). They chose to go to eretz yisroel and accept the medinah wholeheartedly. I do not say that they accepted its philosophy or the state of yiddshkeit but they clearly accepted the medinah and still,today, participate in voting and other aspects of israeli life.
Yes, some of the old yishuv were against the medinah but they are very few today.August 24, 2012 1:24 am at 1:24 am #893215
Moving to EY to live is in NO WAY indicative of support of zionism or the medina. Its a mitzva to live in EY. And many anti-zionists live in EY and oppose the medina. Including the aforementioned rebbesAugust 24, 2012 5:43 am at 5:43 am #893216
The reason why Rabbi Epstein did not reprint this letter in his second edition was not because of threats (there are many more leftist leaning views brought down in this sefer that would’ve been a greater casue for threats) but because Rabbi Epstein honestly acknowledged that printing just this letter gives a very skewed picture of Rav Elya Meir’s views on this matter. Being that Rav Elya Meir was a deep and very fine thinker with colorful detailed view, they were too complex to comprehend from just one letter.
Having said that I will translate to you a letter that Rav Elya Meir has written. It is a long and personal letter, therefore I will not translate all of it. But the part that`s relevant , I will translate it directly – not as a free translation.
The letter is dated fifteenth of Shevat 5703.
“…The blood of our father that flows in our veins the blood that was shed all his life in the course of his war against the idol of zionism… the basic hashkafah and final and clear halacha that we are forbidden to give a hand in support to zionism to agree to idol worship. As long as Hashem will grant me life, one with Mizrahi views, will not join the hanhalah of the yeshiva and we will work to ensure that it so continues after our time. For this is the litmus test of the right Hashafah and right views in the basic Emunah of Hashem and in his Hashgacha, Emunas Chachamin and in basic right and honestly straight way of life. And as of yet there has not been a single Yeshiva that has produced students that were truly Yirei Hashem when their Hanhalah was not sharp and staunch opponents to acknowledging/agreeing of Reshaim and the evil of the zionists. B”H of all the members of the hanhalos of the yeshivos in Poland and Lithuania, there has not been even one that supported the Mizrachi movement… Also this we must remember that the Yeshiva, wherever it may be is the spiritual creation of our father, the light of our eyes zatzal and if in this place there will be an individual who has influence, who disagrees with his psak din that “zionism is a mispachas, all who follow it will not escape doom” this is a slight and a disgrace to his great honor. and in this place that the great tzadik has been moser nefesh in his war against zionism, we will not let that a stranger to his ideas and a cholek on his views should get near the holiness….there are enough pashranim and vatranim, I am not one of them or from their group. Even if America distorts so much that zionism has already become a holy thing, still its real essence and value has not changed. Not to conform to America are we building the future but for Klal Yisroel.
Yehoshou bin nun in his last will warned klal yisroel from such pashranus, because the biggest danger is joining (the wrong groups). Even if the purpose is to attract the youth to Emunah. If they do not wish to server Hashem in truth and wholesomeness Yehoshua has preached to them, they should rather choose one of the false gods “vanoichi u’veisi naavod es Hashem”….
But even in the great termoil and I am in Exile, I will not give up on the way of life that my father, my master and my teacher taught me. Mi LaHashem Eilai. If chas vesholom there are only two, and even if its only one, it is worth more to me than thousands of pashranim and vatranim…. (Signed)
Eliyahu MeirAugust 24, 2012 6:37 am at 6:37 am #893217NaftushMember
Shlishi, RSR Hirsch did take a dim view of the Zionists whom he encountered and his vision of medinat ha-yehudim was far from the mimicking of Gentile-style sovereignty. But the Zionists of whom he knew (up to 1888) had no grand political concept or goal at all, let alone modern statehood. They focused on getting away from the goyim, which to R. Hirsch’s thinking (if I understood it) is a repudiation of our ohr la-goyim mission in the world. Therefore, I don’t think it’s valid to project R. Hirsch’s view of this embryonic Zionism onto the later political Zionism, let alone the medina once it was established.August 24, 2012 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #893218Sam2Participant
Shmoel: You missed his point. The Satmer Rebbe didn’t hold of that. He held that Bizman Hazeh it’s Assur to live in E”Y. So the fact that those Rabbanim lived in E”Y, even if they were anti-Zionists, means they did not completely hold of the Satmar Rebbe’s Shittah. It doesn’t mean they supported Zionism or the Medinah, but it does mean that they disagreed with him (at the very least on some points).August 24, 2012 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #893219
BIRUR: Did you look at the dates of the two lettes we are discussing?? The letter that you rely upon (a private one, by the way) was written in 5703 -that is 1943 !! The horrors of the Holocaust were not well known yet and ,obviously, the medinah was not established yet.
The second letter (mentioned by yoshchayal and a public one) was written in 5714 -that is 1954 !!! ten years afetr the catastrophe of the Holocaust was discovered and after the medinah was established.
Whatever was motivating Rabbonim and Gedolim before the Holocaust and certainyl before the establishment of the medinah changed drastically after these events. As in Sifrei teshuvos with regard to teshubos, I take the later letter as the autoritative one.August 27, 2012 4:01 am at 4:01 am #893220
- In any such case of seemingly contradictory opinions, whether in Halacha or Hashkafa it is a last resort to suggest a change of his views without any substantial proof.
- The passion with which he expresses himself in the earlier letter makes it even more unlikely that there was a change.
- Taking into account the place of importance, de’os and hashofos took in the Telsher school of thought, it’s unlikely he changed his well thought out and passionately held hashkafa, especially regarding the zionist state which he writes is the litmus test of all other important hashkofos.
(Both letters were written to private people, neither is a public letter.)
I suspect the cause for this confusion is the misconception that regarding the state of Israel there are only two views – pro and con, while in fact there are several from different gedolei yisroel.
I would like to provide a background of Rav Elya Meir’s hashkafa on this issue. As he mentions himself regarding this issue. “The way of life that my father, my master and teacher taught me.” “The blood of our father that flows in our viens that was shed like water against the zionist idol”. Harav Yosef Yehuda Leib Bloch, Rav and Rosh Yeshiva of Telshe, was from the most outspoken and extreme(please understand the difference between extreme and radical)opponents of zionism and Mizrachi of the Lithuanium rabbanim and roshei yeshiva, he actually dedicated a shmuess in his yeshiva to the topic, something unheard of in those circles, those days – 5677. He announced a hesped in the main shul in Telshe, upon Herzel’s demise only to quote the Rambam’s words about rejoicing in the demise of reshoim, (which earned him stones through his homes windowes). He is the only Lithuanian gadol that I am aware of that penned a public letter against Rabbi Kook and his writings. He opposed from within the Agudah the excession of a very prominent rav to a greater leadership position, because of the latter’s Mizrachi leanings. In Telshe, a kinnus was held to commemorate Dr. Dahan’s death and to protest the dispicable zionist murderers who were responsible for it. In short Telshe was the fortress of kanaus in that part of Europe. (so wrote Rav Moshe Blau in his memoirs.)
Being that the above mentioned was “the way of life” Rav Elya Meir was referring to that “I will not give up on” it is highly unlikely that he changed his way of thinking.
Besides for that I know of other instances where Rav Elya Meir expressed and acted as he writes in the earlier letter, as at his Yeshiva dinner he noticed everyone rising for the singing of the “Hatikva” and he quickly sat down (he was standing at the moment) which cost him much – in the way of support for his Yeshiva, and in the face of much criticism stood his gun.
Back to the letters, in truth there is no contradition, but a very unconventional way of thinking. Rather atypical, for which Telshe is know for. (Rav YYL Bloch’s fierce opposition to Haskalah and all its byproducts and still being the first to introduce secular studies in his Yeshiva High School thereby saving many youths. – just one of many examples.) I believe if we would take the time to study Rav Elya Meir’s words in both letters we can reconcile both and get a fuller understanding of his view on the issue.August 27, 2012 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #893221
Thank you very much for this most interesting historical information.
This is exactly what frustrated the Satmar Rebbe ZTL so much, the false portrayal of his shita as “the Satmarer shita” when in fact; it was the shita of the majority of pre war gedoilim.
The argument that most gedolim “changed” or would of changed their shita in light of the defacto situation of the medina, IS WRONG & UNACCEPTABLE by anyone to whom the words of the Chasam Sofer ZTL is dear & holy, as he constantly taught, that the torah doesn’t change, and this was the battle cry of his talmidim who fought to establish the Orthodoxy in the Austrian Hungarian empire in the 1820’s.
Lets not go into why a lot of gedolim changed their shita…. I will give you 1 hint…… money….August 27, 2012 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #893222
Allow me to deal first with the truly insulting comments by mogold that the gedolim , who included virtually all of the chassidische rebbes and most of the litvishe roshei yeshiva in eretz yisroel, succumbed to the lure of money. This is insulting and , in this month of elul, you should ask mechila from the imrei emes zz’l ,the ponevitzher rosh yeshiva zz’l, the vishnitser rebbe zz’l , the klausenburger rebbe zz’l and many others.
BTW- the chassam sofer zz’l died in 1839, so let’s not include his shittah-that has nothing to do with zionism or eretz yisroel- in this debate.
As far as BIRUR’s explanation, it is indeed conspicuous that he is not able to comment on the second letter, and can only say “that we can get a fuller understanding if we study his words”. HOW?
As far as the story he tells about telshe in the earlier days- let me point out that it was fritten by R’Moshe Blau zz’l , a wonderful person but he was a member of Neturei Karta, which makes him a “nogea bedovor”.
And again, even if we accept his words, the stories happened way back in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century, when zionism was indeed a party of haskoloh and incurred the wrath of many orthodox Gedolim.
It is incontrovertible that the Holocaust and the establishment of Medinat Israel were game changers. R”Itche Meir Levin- the gerrer rebbe’s brother-in-law, – signed the declaration of independence of israel! The Vishnizter rebbe zz’l (R’Chaim Meir) built his shikkun in Bnai brak- the Klausenburger rebbe zz’l left the United States and built his kirya in natanyah (Kiryat Zanz). Many other chareidi gedolim recognized this and, although they did not agree with the government in its appraoch to secularity, they realized that the medinah is here to stay and one should work within it to improve it.August 27, 2012 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #893223
Just to clarify: Only the last quote that Telz was the fortress of kanaus was from Rav Moshe Blau.August 27, 2012 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #893224
Rav Moshe Blau was a leader of the Agudas Yisroel.August 27, 2012 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #893225vochindikMember
It’s not an issue of supporting the medinah. It’s an issue of how to fight it. Those other Gedolim, such as Rav Ahron Kotler, the Klausenberger, the Vizhnitzer and the Gerrer Rebbes for example, opposed Zionism just as much as they did before the war. They just held that after ’48, the battle to prevent Israel from coming into existence is lost, the bad guys won, and we now need to fight Zionism on a different front. The way to do that is to try to obtain Hatzolah Purtah. if we cannot prevent Israel from coming into existence, let’s try to make sure it does minimal damage to Judaism. Frum Jews need to join the government and use whatever leverage the frum community has at its disposal to prevent bad decrees and to ensure the rights and the flourishing of the frum community. They held that joining the State was the best way to oppose Zionism and its bad effects. What changed was, before the State we had to oppose having anything to do with the Zionists. After the State, their goals are already accomplished, so now the best way to fight them is to join their State and make sure they don’t do more damage than necessary.
The Satmar Rebbe held that such an approach is not Hatzolah Purtah but rather makes you an accessory to the crime after the fact. He held that we still need to have nothing to do with the Zionists including joining their state.
Opposition to Zionism was not the issue. Opposition to joining the Zionists was.August 27, 2012 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #893226
shmoel- You are right and I apologize to R’Moshe Blau zz’l. I confused him with R”Amram Blau zz’l.
vochindik- your logic is convoluted but let’s assume you are right. So, you admit that medinas yisroel is here to stay and that it is our duty now to improve it. How is this view different from the Agudah? And indeed, from the mizrachi?August 27, 2012 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #893227Josh31Participant
vochindik, you seem to position the State of Israel as somewhere between the Romans who destroyed the second Temple and Nazi Germany.
Hatzolah Purtah, is the term used to describe Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai’s agreement with Vespasian at the time of the destruction of the second Temple.
Incredibly, there are those in the hard Anti-Zionist camp who argue that deals should have been struck with Nazi Germany itself, and such deals would have saved Hungarian Jewry.
But with the State of Israel no deals can be struck…August 27, 2012 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #893228vochindikMember
The Zionists worked hand-in-hand in partnership with the Nazis in the annihilation of European Jewry. (i.e. Kastner and Eichmann.) After all, the Zionists said outright that they didn’t want old Jews or infirm Jews coming to Palestine. A cow is worth more to them than such Jews, they said.August 28, 2012 2:08 am at 2:08 am #893229Josh31Participant
Judging all Zionists by some words one person said is harsh.
But harsh judgement is what you get from the extreme Anti-Zionists.
mogold has decided that the majority of Torah Gedolim sold out their principles for money. wow!!!
The bottom line is that Torah Judaism survived by working with the powers that be, whether Bavel, whether King Yanni, whether Hordus and whether Rome…August 28, 2012 2:13 am at 2:13 am #893230
…and whether the Zionists.August 28, 2012 6:51 am at 6:51 am #893231interjectionParticipant
“Zionists said outright that they didn’t want old Jews or infirm Jews coming to Palestine. A cow is worth more to them than such Jews, they said.”
Do they still say that? Or do they send their sons and daughters to the front lines so you can live?August 28, 2012 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #893232
Rabbiofberlin & Josh31
Well we are now 64 years after the establishment of the medina, and basically the only real accomplishment they can point to, is the receipt of a tremendous amount MONEY for Kollelim , Yeshivas etc.
Also rabbiofberlin by claiming that the Chasam Sofer died in 1839 & his shita is not relevant, is a terrible insult to the Chasam Sofer who was the undisputed gadol hador & his psukim & words were revered by every single faction of klal yisroelAugust 28, 2012 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #893233on the ballParticipant
The actual words were uttered by Yitzchak Greenbaum during the war:
‘One cow in Israel is worth more than 100 Jews in Europe’.
So, interjection, the answer to your question is yes they send their sons and daughters to the front lines – but only to save Israeli Jews (and cows).August 28, 2012 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #893234
mogold: First of all, Judaism does change – as the world changes, Judaism changes in order to keep to the Torah. Torah shebaal peh was written down because the world (and people in it) were changing.
Chassidus as a whole was a change – that’s why so many Rabbonim opposed it. As long as we stay within the rules, change is not a bad thing. Reform seeks to abolish the rules. They say the Torah was not written by Hashem. Obviously, frum Jews don’t believe that.
The Satmar Rebbe was a daas yochid. As for his “success”, let’s measure it now. 2 brothers, who fight over the dynasty. Why? Because of the money involved. It’s to the extent where on their father’s yartzeit, they can’t go to the cemetery at the same time. The last time they did, fighting broke out in the streets. Satmar chassidim are leaving Monroe and Williamsburg by the hundreds, not interested in living that lifestyle anymore. Some of their newer areas, such as in Monsey, have changed. They don’t hold to the strict standards that their grandparents did. They have changed.
On the whole, Satmar as R’ Yoel founded it is dying.August 28, 2012 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #893235
Feif: You are blind.
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