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I overheard this discussion recently. Someone was stating that the internet is NOT a causative factor in kids going off the derech, and that there is plenty of experience to support that. This was not a denial that internet exposure carries its risks and aveiros. But this person was suggesting that kids who decide to leave the fold are running away, and are looking for where to go to be happy. The world of cyberspace is one of those places. This speaker was not advocating taking a more permissive position about internet access, and was ready to support every takana to restrict internet use, so we are not dealing with hashkafos that are questionable. But there was clarity about the cause and effect being opposite of what so many believe.
I would like to hear experiences of others and opinions. Particularly interesting would be quotes (verifiable) from Gedolei Yisroel on this.
I don’t think internet causes OTD, I think being unhappy and in pain, usually having been traumatized (specifically, abused), causes OTD. I agree that those who are suffering escape to places which are harmful, and that can be the nail in the coffin, so to speak, but the primary cause is pain.
This might not be the case in more permissive homes where internet is allowed, and children exposed to the idea that all types of ideologies are equal ch”v. This has been proposed by Rabbi Dr. Berman.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sunglasses-assur/page/2#post-580900
OTD kids that get turned off. the turning point that starts them heading there is lack of love & care from parents & rabbeim etc… it also includes a lack of self-esteem & self-image
It is without the slightest of doubt that had the internet not ever existed (not something similar in lieu of its absence), then less people would have gone off the derech.
The internet, for some who have gone otd, facilitated their having gone otd whereas they otherwise would not have, whether for lack of initiative, for lack of knowledge, for lack of doubt, for lack of ability, for lack of finding resources or for other factors.
Until the 1800’s virtually all Jews were frum. By the end of the 1800’s most of Western European Jews and a large and growing number of Eastern European Jews were OTD. If I’m not mistaken, there was no Internet then
In some respects, the Internet has had more of an impact on yeshivish, chareidi and chassidish kids. Prior to the Internet, and with no TV in the house, it was much easier to limit access to materials deemed inappropriate. Even with filters, they now have access to those materials ( modern kids already had access books etc )
Until the 1800’s virtually all Jews were frum. By the end of the 1800’s most of Western European Jews and a large and growing number of Eastern European Jews were OTD. If I’m not mistaken, there was no Internet then
Why, how old is Al Gore?
Really, though, different generations have different nisyonos.
In some respects, the Internet has had more of an impact on yeshivish, chareidi and chassidish kids. Prior to the Internet, and with no TV in the house, it was much easier to limit access to materials deemed inappropriate. Even with filters, they now have access to those materials ( modern kids already had access books etc )
In other respects, it’s had more impact on modern homes, where access is much freer. See the article I referenced above by Rabbi Dr. Berman.
DY, I don’t disagree with your point, but I think you missed mine. Modern kids pretty much always had access prior to the Internet through libraries, college etc. Then Internet simply made it easier. In the other communities, the Internet gave their kids access to ideas and subjects that they had been shielded from in the past
Sorry, I should have been clearer – I’m not disagreeing with your point, just saying that it has affected different communities differently.
This thing of kids going otd is around before Internet. This comes from problems in the house, if there arent then it basicly only comes from Cheder in school and yeshivos. They all say that is Internet. And all these boys say that my parents didnt have shalom bayis. And this rebbe smacked me in front of my whole school …. And what do they say today it’s a lie they r like this from the Internet. But Internet is a big problem, but that is not the problem from otd
>I think being unhappy and in pain, usually having been traumatized (specifically, abused), causes OTD.
>the turning point that starts them heading there is lack of love & care from parents & rabbeim etc… it also includes a lack of self-esteem & self-image
Not to pick on anyone in particular, but are the above notions of why people go OTD more accepted than LessChumras view (ideas that one accepted while growing up being challenged as one becomes older)?
Do people who come from loving homes go off the derech less? Do people with high self esteem go off the derech less?
I haven’t read the other posts, but to answer the OP; The internet doesn’t cause OTD but it’s a place where a kid can feel accepted without having to conform to anything or get good grades on his tests.
Listen to Rabbi Wallerstein’s shiur on parshas Vayeshev, ‘es achai ani mevakesh’ for a full explanation of this.
“Do people who come from loving homes go off the derech less? Do people with high self esteem go off the derech less?”
Yes and yes.
My Very humble opinion is that not keeping torah or mitzvos causes one to be OTD…
the causes are multiple, however the internet can definitely be used as a tool along the way, and very often is… and if you want to take the risk with your children then by all accounts give them unfiltered internet access.
According to Faranak Margolese (“Off the Derech”) the main cause is negative experiences with religious figures. However, the Arizal says that there is no tzibbbor without the three letters of the root: tzaddikim, benoni’im and reshaim. So there will be OTDs no matter what. Anyone who learns the responsa literature knows taht some hair-raising aveirot were committed in the holy shtetlach.
According to Faranak Margolese (“Off the Derech”) the main cause is negative experiences with religious figures.
I won’t say there’s no truth to that, but coming from OTD people, how much is it actually the cause rather than a justification?
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LESSCHUMRAS- By the end of the 1800’s most of Western European Jews and a large and growing number of Eastern European Jews were OTD. If I’m not mistaken, there was no Internet then
it still is possible to be causing people to go off the derech now though, an added problem which didnt exist before.
. Modern kids pretty much always had access prior to the Internet through libraries, college etc. Then Internet simply made it easier. In the other communities, the Internet gave their kids access to ideas and subjects that they had been shielded from in the past
I hear that. (Im not focusing on the shmiras ainayim point, thats a different shmooze.) I think the internet (and all its social media) keeps growing in its power and publicity of ideas that dont follow a torah household, at a scary pace. It used to be you log on to aol and check your mail or whatever. Now evrything is a forum and everyone is shouting their corrupt and moraly insane stupidity, stupidities that get shoved down your throat. If you disagree with some views you are a bigot or maybe even Hitler himself.
Even if these ideas and concepts and lifestyles were familiar to youth, theres a new draw to them. A draw that packs a punch. (a strong punch.) That’s all besides the great and famous popular in style people expressing views and opinions which everyone loves to hear so much.
The classic Haskalah thing to say was “cmon bro, get in touch with reality, get with the times.” I feel this danger is out there in a larger way as well. To keep up with everyone and everything you have to share the cool views about life and the pursuit of momentary happiness or your a relic. I got more to say but gtg
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