September 6, 2019 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1784513HaimyParticipant
The internet is a tremendously powerful tool which can destroy a person if used incorrectly. But let’s not just demonize the internet.
But let’s appreciate the chessed Hashem for creating the internet for Klal Yisroel.
I would speculate that the main source of parnossah for Chareidi Yidden entering the business world is based online. Kollel people with out even a highschool education are earning a respectable living by selling online primarily on Amazon. When the internet is used correctly with a filter & yiras shomayim it becomes a tzinor of shefa & brocha for Klal Yisroel. Let’s not be kefuyei Tova to the Ribono Shel Olom by demonizing this gift he gave us. Let’s use it responsibly.September 6, 2019 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1784531smerelParticipant
The good that comes from the internet does not elevate it to “the biggest source of bracha in the last generations”
I personally make my parnosh mostly online. Even so, I would prefer that it did not exist. So do most people who I know.
Hashem found parnash for people before the internet too.
The Yetzer Horah did not have any comparable agents when I was growing up in the pre-internet daysSeptember 6, 2019 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1784547akupermaParticipant
This may come as a shock to you children, but people got along fine before the internet. People bought and sold goods. They followed the news. THey invested. THey entertained themselves. They even knew how to communicate in writing and by talking to each other.
If you want to discuss an invention that really improved life, consider antibiotics, anesthetics for surgery, indoor plumbing (toilets), and refrigeration.September 8, 2019 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1784743iacisrmmaParticipant
The Ribono Shel Olam!September 8, 2019 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1784832
Come on. We need to discuss this with some maturity. Certainly there are nisyonos with the internet. That is undeniable. And there are ways to cope with them. If we spent our time banning everything just because there are challenges, we would need to put a moratorium on life. Existing without nisyonos is the mission of mankind, and that is the intent of HKB”H in His creation. And He placed us here to survive in that environment. And this environment has undergone massive changes over time, which is attested to throughout Torah. Today’s challenge in the use of technology and its role in overtaking so much of today’s life.
So, yes, HKB”H invented the internet, not different from the inventions that succeeded throughout the thousands of years since Bri’as Haolam. HKB”H doesn;t make bad things. He makes things which present us with the task of overcoming resistance to follow His will, perform mitzvos, and become closer.
All these discussions about the external challenges and nisyonos seem to omit the most important element. When we are small, the smaller challenges overwhelm us, and our risk of falling prey is greater. When we function at a higher madraigoh, these nisyonos pose much less risk. Now, let’s address the least popular thought. How do we score in the eyes of Hashem as successful Ovdei Hashem? Don’t bore me with descriptions of anything external, Clothing do not matter, nor do chumros. Even the intense experiences of a great drosho, mussar schmooze, or a terrific tefiloh. Nor do the huge amounts of tzedokoh, or the roles as guest of honor at fundraising dinners for the most worthy causes. All mitzvos count, but the true tzidkus is about our closeness to Hashem, and how much emphasis we place, in our heart of hearts, on our mission to connect to Him and emulate His midos. This element is blind to the score we would get on a bechinah in Gemora. It is blind to the dollar figures given to tzedokoh. It is blind to the extent of chumros we follow with regards to kashrus, tznius, shiurim, cholov Yisroel, etc. It doesn’t rate us on our exterior appearance (that’s correct, the white shirt doesn’t really matter). None of these say anything true about our closeness to Hashem. Neither does the crying during davening Roah Hashanah and Yom Kippur. What does more to define our reality is what we take away from our Elul, our Yomim Noraim, our performance of mitzvos all year round. What sort of dwelling do we provide for HKB”H Who wants his Shechinah to reside in our hearts?
When we accomplish our building of the interior, we would simply take note of the nisyonos, develop our strategies to cope, and move on with our lives of Avdus Hashem. It is sad that we are obsessed with the judgment of objects and technology while diverting our energy from a far greater purpose, our mission in our existence. I would hope that Elul would awaken us to focus inwardly. But threads like this (yes, a few others that are active now) are busy with the trivia. I know that internet and smartphones are issues. Most certainly. But if we allow ourselves to remain encased in the concrete of obliviousness to the reality of our creation, all that will change is the labels for these nisyonos. I seek to accomplish more this Elul than discuss whether we should ban technology.September 8, 2019 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1784944☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
“Ban technology” מאן דכר שמיה?September 9, 2019 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1785000Avi KParticipant
Akuperma, people also got along without cars, refrigerators, washing machines, etc. Are you suggesting that we become AmishSeptember 9, 2019 10:51 am at 10:51 am #1785062
The little I know, the Midrash says ושכנתי בתוכם – בתוכו לא נאמר אלא בתוכם, בתוך כל אחד ואחד בישראל in everyone’s heart.
The Shlah Hakadosh says that this teaches us that everyone should make himself like a Beis Hamikdash.September 9, 2019 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #1785069
Quite true. My point, which I think you get, is that the inner strength is the greatest ingredient needed to fight off the nisyonos of life. All the externals, as much as we might believe they are needed, do not compare.
A trivial point. The Medrash you quoted is one of those that is quoted liberally, and its veracity is not challenged. However, to date, there is absolutely no known reference for this in Medrash or any other source in Chazal. If you know one, share it. It would be a zechus for the public to know the source.September 9, 2019 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1785105
The little I know, you are right I could not find a midrash. They all quoted in the name of the Alshich Hakadosh. I did find the Shlah Hakadosh.September 9, 2019 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1785176zahavasdadParticipant
The issue of parnassah is a long time issue, its probably the #1 reason jews converted to christinity (They didnt convert because they belived in the man on the cross, but rather because they were poor and were limited in economic activities) .
Many others stopped keeping shabbos for the same reason, they couldnt support themselves
One should not dismiss this lightlySeptember 9, 2019 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1785182
האומר לרע טוב ולטוב רעSeptember 9, 2019 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1785183
it didn’t take us long not even a full generation to start rationalizing . that quick.
throughout the duration of the past were many developments that were unequivocally negative and yet could be a trace Wow it didn’t lower it didn’t even take us this long not even a full generation to start right or generation to start rationalizing directions that was quick throughout the duration of the past you were many movements and developments that were unequivocally negative and yet y could be a trace of silver lining after the fact
and people have come and try to rationalize why it’s not so negative
the internet on the balance of it is bad
let’s stop trying to rationalize to ourselves
many of us find many uses for it .Presently it’s the reality & is not going away
nevertheless some of us are honest enough to admit the world was a better place beforehand prior to it’s advent
look back at some of your ancestors and try to Envision with relief that they’re fortunate they didn’t have to live in the internet age
that should say enough
‘האומר לרע טוב ולטוב רע’September 9, 2019 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1785195HaimyParticipant
If we’d turn back the economic clock 30 years & have 20,000 kollel graduates with 5-10 children & minimal secular education looking for a job we’d be in big trouble. Hashem created this tzinor as a yeshuah for the Chareidi tzibbur. So many former yungeleit are making a respectable parnossah using technology & internet we should make a brocha thanking Hashem for this nes. No one is benefiting more from the internet then the Olom Hachareidi.September 9, 2019 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1785202
The little I know. the Baal Akeida explains the meaning of הרהורי עבירה קשה מעבירה because one rationalizes and tries to explain an aveira finding excuses is worse than actually doing the aveira.September 10, 2019 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1785387Avi KParticipant
ZD. I think that most converted to escape physical harm.September 10, 2019 8:24 am at 8:24 am #1785389garlicParticipant
the internet has the same qualities as the pen, the newspaper and typewriter: it can be used for good or bad.
Problem is that many people who are embarrassed to visit inappropriate stores, now do it in the ‘privacy’ of their homes……September 10, 2019 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1785449
One of the fundamental differences between man and animal is the ability to think. Humans can contemplate a sense of purpose, plan actions, withhold innate and instinctual desires, and make decisions based on a wide variety of bases, including the projection to the future and the outcomes. Those who are swallowed in a hedonistic, pleasure driven lifestyle are hardly better than lower forms of animal life.
It is with a most powerful message that we are told of the severity of הרהורי עבירה and the great value of הרהורי תשובה.
Note that every single physical desire has an end point at which the desire is gone, usually to return after a period of latency. One can only eat a certain amount, after which one is satiated and no longer hungry. Yet, those desires that reside in the brain do not have such an end point. They are, for lack of a better word, infinite. One can remain stuck in them until exhaustion. One of the dangers of הרהורי עבירה is this lack of limits. Even if one doesn’t end up acting upon them, they have captured the consciousness and the control over one’s mental faculties. And the yetzer horah insures that the draw to these הרהורי עבירה never wanes. Once inside, the yetzer horah proudly proclaims, “Gotcha”. This would be quite a solid explanation for the statement of the Baal Akeida.
It is also a statement of warning we should give ourselves, with as much repetition as needed. The yetzer horah is insidious. Of course we can run around banning everything in sight. But the yetzer is crafty enough to find a way inside. What we should never abandon is the quest to build our Yetzer Hatov to a point of strength at which we no longer need to engage in battle to remain Ovdei Hashem. I pray that Elul helps us become proper recipients of the messages of teshuvah and connection to Hashem, which can then last through the days afterwards when we return to the daily life of nisyonos.September 10, 2019 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1785486devnyBlocked
People also complained when the Mussar movement started.
It’s easy to bury your head in the sand and live in the past, especially when you live in a sandbox.September 10, 2019 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1785490
The little I know, the Rambam says that our greatest asset is our mind and we end up destroying our mind.September 10, 2019 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1785610
The Mussar movement was a wonderful thing. But like any tool, it can be used improperly. It is also like any map. If not consulted, it becomes useless. I studied in yeshivos, and we had a mussar seder. It was empty ritual. The alternative was to make sifrei mussar an academic study. Seforim and sedarim are terrific. But until there is applied mussar, the beauty of the seforim and sedarim remains hidden.September 10, 2019 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1785530
more proof to what was written above how Warped it is it is making people
no one’s debating the fact that this is a reality And needs to be navigated
Many of us actually feel a sense of relief when my net is down for a day or two And disconnect from the world for a bit
contemplate any of your ancestors and tell me if you really believe they would have better off rather than how you know them if they live d in the internet ageSeptember 12, 2019 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1786091devnyBlocked
“contemplate any of your ancestors and tell me if you really believe they would have better off rather than how you know them if they live d in the internet age ”
That’s a ridiculous argument.
“The internet age” is not in a vacuum. It is a construct that has evolved from a myriad causes, many of which relate directly to our social, economical, and cultural environments. To just pick it up and drop into the 18th century to see how it does is like finding a caveman and swapping out his wooden arrow for an AK-47.September 12, 2019 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1786218biggestbatlanParticipant
The internet is bad because of the tremendous amount of batlanus that goes on because of itSeptember 12, 2019 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1786219biggestbatlanParticipant
for example now I could be learning but am on the internetSeptember 15, 2019 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1786856
it just takes you out of your comfort zone and not willing to contemplate
” It is a construct that has evolved from a myriad causes, many of which relate ”
So verbose o’dear anything to avoid
Every step up of technological progress
parallels with it a commensurate decline Of
Human stature And humankindSeptember 16, 2019 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1787088NKChossid612Participant
laynias dayti, the issurchet is vadai ussur.September 16, 2019 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1787236midwesternerParticipant
A comment to TFT and the others about the quick change from bad to good.
I have been blessed by Hashem with six wonderful daughters. In the 11 year span from when my eldest went to seminary to when my youngest went, we watched the cellphone policies go from:
1. Assur, no one had
2. frowned on- just a few had
3. neutral, get one if your parents are nervous
4. good idea, you should probably get
5. Everyone should get one
6. The seminary will actually supply them so they can send group messages about a host of issues.
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