May 17, 2022 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2087440tunaisafishParticipant
*Halachicly* is abortion considered murder and would you be chaiv hereg? would it make a diffrence what trymester? Also is it part of sheva mitzvos bnei noach?May 17, 2022 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #2087681Reb EliezerParticipant
We discussed this already that there is a difference between a Jew and a goy. By a Jew, no and by a Goy, yes. The Minchas Chinuch questions whether the exception of saving the mother applies by a goy.May 17, 2022 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #2087696akupermaParticipant
Beis Din couldn’t execute a Jew for it. For goyim (with different rules of evidence), abortion and infanticide were frequently cited as a way in which the goyim often violate the sheva mitzvos bnei Noach. Remember as well, that until recently, most people were unaware the unborn children were sentient (that was part of the logic under Roe v Wade to allow killing them – and why the use of ultrasound player a major role in the growth of the pro-life movement).May 17, 2022 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #2087787
According to Halacha, a woman (nochri) who aborts her baby is Chayiv Misa.May 17, 2022 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #2087819
We need to update the question.
Is murder a bore shoin?May 17, 2022 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #2087864
“*Halachicly* is abortion considered murder”
Depends on circumstances in some cases no, in other cases its a machlokes
” and would you be chaiv hereg?”
” would it make a diffrence what trymester? ”
“Also is it part of sheva mitzvos bnei noach?”
YesMay 18, 2022 8:48 am at 8:48 am #2088066
There are some good shiurim on this on Torah anytime. Basically it’s a machlokes – I believe Rav Moshe Feinstein holds it’s murder to have an abortion after 40 days of pregnancy even though it is not chayav misa in Beis din and even though there is an exception for saving the mother’s life, which doesn’t exist by other types of murder. Other poskim, including Tzitz Eliezer hold that it is not murder, though still strictly ossur except in limited circumstances. Everyone agrees that that it is ossur under Sheva mitzvos bnei Noach. A Ben Noach who performs an abortion would be chayav misa whether it is murder or not, because misa applies to all Sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach. It’s also agreed, I believe, that where abortion is prohibited, only the person performing the abortion would be chayav. If the mother requested it but didn’t perform it, she would be chayav only for lifnei iver.May 18, 2022 10:40 am at 10:40 am #2088082tunaisafishParticipant
Why would it be more strict by a goy?May 18, 2022 11:43 am at 11:43 am #2088127DaMosheParticipant
R’ Tendler zt”l quoted a Meiri that says the reason we don’t give the death penalty to a Jew for abortion is because the sin is so bad, even death can’t atone for it. We don’t give punishments except where it is a kapparah. He says the sin is so terrible that only Hashem can give a proper punishment.May 18, 2022 11:45 am at 11:45 am #2088137
“Why would it be more strict by a goy?”
In Halacha, I believe it is because the prohibition for a Jew and the prohibition for a Ben Noach are derived from different psukim, but I don’t remember the details. I would suggest listening to some of the shiurim that discuss this topic. In hashkafa, I don’t know the answer and would be interested in learning, but I would be wary of having that discussion on this forum because it not such a politically correct topic and there are a lot of nuances, so it’s likely that some readers will be offended and take it the wrong way.May 18, 2022 11:45 am at 11:45 am #2088133
“Why would it be more strict by a goy?”
The same reason a goy is chayiv misa for theft.
“A Ben Noach who performs an abortion would be chayav misa whether it is murder or not, because misa applies to all Sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach. It’s also agreed, I believe, that where abortion is prohibited, only the person performing the abortion would be chayav. If the mother requested it but didn’t perform it, she would be chayav only for lifnei iver.”
Which means if it is a self-abortion, such as the over the counter or prescription medication she takes, the mother would be chayiv misa.May 18, 2022 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2088159Reb EliezerParticipant
Also we do not go after rov by a goy but by a Jew rov are not viable until birth. The proof is in Parshas Mishpatim were money is paid when killing fetus.May 18, 2022 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #2088188
“Which means if it is a self-abortion, such as the over the counter or prescription medication she takes, the mother would be chayiv misa.”
Correct.May 18, 2022 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #2088235jackkParticipant
The chiyuv misa is the same chiyuv misa that a man/woman gets for Stealing a candy bar or Eating the delicacy known as Prairie Oysters served at Coors Field during Colorado Rockies baseball gamesMay 18, 2022 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #2088297nishtdayngesheftParticipant
What issue is there for a nochri to eat Rocky Mountain Oysters? Who said they are ever min hachay?May 18, 2022 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #2088312
Jackk: Why are you downplaying a severe prohibition that carries the death penalty. Chayiv Misa means exactly that. It is nothing to be trifled with. It isn’t just a theory; it carries capital punishment as a real legal matter that the courts can and do enforce.May 19, 2022 12:27 am at 12:27 am #2088396
ujm, are you by any chance a gilgul of Robespierre?May 19, 2022 7:45 am at 7:45 am #2088472philosopherParticipant
This thread is absolutely shocking. Regardless who is chayiv misa and who is not chayiv misa, the discussion of murder in such lighthearted way and to even question if it’s murder or not is absolutely horrible. How low we have fallen. Our parents and grandparents would be shocked at this discussion.
According to halacha a baby may be aborted only up to 40 days. However, to oivdei Hashem who value life abortion is repulsive and unthinkable even when technically allowed by halacha and most poskim would not allow an abortion on an under 40 day fetus without a very good reason to do so (in cases of rape H”y
or danger to the mother). After 40 days abortion is only allowed if the mother’s physical life is in danger, not if there’s a perceived threat of mental health issues.
Abortion is murder. Abortion is murder. Abortion is murder. Period.May 19, 2022 7:47 am at 7:47 am #2088498
Obviously no court is enforcing the death penalty on 7 mitzvos bnei Noach today, but the fact that certain aveiros would be chayav misa should be a warning to us that they are more serious than we might have otherwise thought.
If there were courts enforcing the death penalty on 7 mitzvos BN, it would be in the context of a society that has as a whole accepted those mitzvos and understands their severity, so the application of misa would be something that happens rarely and after a lot of deliberation, hence the Robespierre analogy does not fit. But the fact that the death penalty does not exist today in practice for 7 mitzvos bnei Noach (except for murder in some jurisdictions) should not lead us to think that prohibitions are less severe.May 19, 2022 7:48 am at 7:48 am #2088500
Remember Chazal tell us it was gezel that ultimately caused the mabul, so stealing a candy bar is not a small aveira, and the fact that many people nowadays think it is just tells us how low things have fallen.May 19, 2022 8:32 am at 8:32 am #2088550
Philosopher, the gelolei haposkim put a lot of thought and argument into determining whether abortion is murder so I think the question is legitimate. But I think you are correct that it should be obvious to anyone straight-thinking person that it is terrible and immoral except in rare, extreme cases. I would also add that in a case where there is hefkerus and lack of respect regarding a particular mitzvah, it makes sense to be as machmir as possible, and this would be one of those cases.May 19, 2022 9:43 am at 9:43 am #2088582
your comment is shocking
to just dismiss the vast vast majority of poskim who do not hold abotyion is murder (at least for yidden), should make any frum yid shudder. It is one thing to (wrongly) claim that klal yisroel has accepted the opinion of those who wholsd it is murder. But to completly dismiss the Achiezer, Seridei Eish, Maharit , R’ Yaakov Emdedn Tzitz eliezer, R’ Shlomo Zalman, chavas Yair, Minhas chinuch, Rashi, Tosfos (some Baalei Tosfos there is a machlokes) among others as not even existing!?!
How low we have you fallen. Our parents and grandparents would be shocked at this discussion, to just mach avek all those shitos.
Again you dont hold of them fine. You want to be machmir (or meikel) on yourself and not allow those abortions b’seder. but to say they don’t exist?
“. However, to oivdei Hashem who value life abortion is repulsive and unthinkable even when technically allowed by halacha ”
Nu nu so you are frummer than the Borei Olam,, to most people that isnt how halacha works, if muttar its muttar if asur than assur.
” After 40 days abortion is only allowed if the mother’s physical life is in danger, not if there’s a perceived threat of mental health issues.”
In your opinion. and you are free to have an opinion. I’ll bet noone ever came to you with suc ha sheilah. The poskim who get these shailahs’ do sometimes allow after 40 days .
“Abortion is murder. Abortion is murder. Abortion is murder. Period.”
Is that how halacha works? You repeat things over an over and they become trueMay 19, 2022 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2088663
(My list is heavy on Achronim becasue Rishonim’s views are often in dispute. For example R’ Moshe held the Rambam views abortion as murder; the Achiezer and Minchas chinuch argue, but according to some yo ucan add the Rambam to the bove list. Similarly the Achiezer brings from a Ran in chullin that it isnt murder, though again others dispute this.
also, as mentioned in previous threads; not murder does not equal muttar. This should be obvious but this point often gets lost so it is worth repeating. One poster mistakenly suggested if it isnt murder it should be celebrated. A contention that is utterly baffling )May 20, 2022 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2089069y1836Participant
“But to completly dismiss the Achiezer, Seridei Eish, Maharit , R’ Yaakov Emdedn Tzitz eliezer, R’ Shlomo Zalman, chavas Yair, Minhas chinuch, Rashi, Tosfos (some Baalei Tosfos there is a machlokes) among others as not even existing!?!”
You are right on most of those accounts, but i believe that Rav Shlomo Zalman considered abortion to be Retzichah for Jews also, like Rav Moshe. Also, Rashi’s Shitah is vague like some of the other Rishonim, and Rav Moshe assumes that Rashi holds it is Ritzichah. Also, although there is a Tosafos which implies that it’s not, Rav Moshe assumes that it’s a Taus Sofrim.May 20, 2022 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #2089090
“but i believe that Rav Shlomo Zalman considered abortion to be Retzichah for Jews also”
I’m not sure if he wrote anything himself on the matter. Both Nishmas Avraham and Shulchan Shlomo (hilchas refuah) write that he held it is gezelMay 22, 2022 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #2089492
Does everyone agree that it Congress passed a law that anyone who performs or undergoes an abortion will be executed, but categorically and explicitly ties both the law and its enforcement to directly match how abortion (and how judicial enforcement) is treated under the Sheva Mitzvos, that this would be a wonderful thing that we all support?
For the purposes of this question accept that this is legally viable, rather than trying to weasel out of responding on secular grounds.May 22, 2022 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #2089557
“our bubehs and zaydahs* would be infinitely more shocked at the actual discussion that frum jews are having about baby killing. They’d recoil in horror at the shattering of skulls, dismemberment and brutal torture that abortion often entails. And they would scream “murderer!” Without getting into any shailos if it’s *really* murder or not.May 22, 2022 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #2089567
Ujm, I would be curious to know what the opinion of gedolei Yisroel would be on this. My guess is that there would be serious practical issues with enforcing capital punishment for a crime that a large portion of society doesn’t consider to be a crime at all. The result might be selective and unfair enforcement. Where it was enforced, political opponents of the law would turn executed offenders into martyr figures. It would be better to work on changing public opinion, from a practical standpoint.May 22, 2022 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #2089577
On the other hand, there is the idea that when a prohibition is being treated lightly, it’s necessary to be extra strict, so maybe such a law would be a good idea. Tzarich iyun…May 22, 2022 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #2089595
“our bubehs and zaydahs* would be infinitely more shocked at the actual discussion that frum jews are having about baby killing. They’d recoil in horror at the shattering of skulls, dismemberment and brutal torture that abortion often entails. And they would scream “murderer!” Without getting into any shailos if it’s *really* murder or not.”
Possibly, but the poskim in the times of our bubbes and zeidesand even before found it necessary to discuss this question in their shailos and tshuvos, because there are situations where there is a nafka mina. A famous one was a case where a woman knew that she was going to give birth to a mamzer and wanted to do tshuva for what she had done.May 22, 2022 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #2089618
I disagree. As the Rambam did. The Lubavitcher Rebbe agreed with your idea.May 22, 2022 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #2089623jackkParticipant
Our Bubbes and Zeides who lived through and survived Pogrom after Pogrom and were consistently in the middle of European countries killing each other, knew exactly the koach haretzicha.May 22, 2022 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #2089624Amil ZolaParticipant
“they’d recoil in horror at the shattering of skulls…” Dilation and extraction abortions have been illegal nationally since 2003 . Many state our laws prohibited this procedure prior to 2003. This is US law.May 22, 2022 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2089640
Aseh: Why is there even any hava mina that there might be a right to kill a mamzer, any more than to kill a non-mamzer?May 22, 2022 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #2089658
I don’t remember but it was discussed in a tshuva from one of the gedolei poskim. Maybe the yaavetz, but I’m not sure. I also don’t remember what the final psak was, but it was not as poshut as it might seem.
I believe the tzitz eliezer was matir abortions for babies with Tay Sachs if I remember correctly, though this was controversial.May 22, 2022 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #2089668
Aseh; those are issues that poskim discuss, and you’re factually correct in your statements. I am referring to the flippancy and nonchalant tone of many frum people both on here and in general – in direct ratio, of course, to how much swamp miasma they imbibe from “entertainment” and non-jewish media.May 22, 2022 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #2089670
You’re right that that psak of the tzitz eliezer, who’s quoted a lot by the aforementioned nonchalant “Orthodox jews”, was extremely controversial. Maran Rav Moshe feinstein was in a totally different leafue than him, and not only did he say it is murder and prohibited in all cases, save for when the mother’s life is in jeopardy, but he denied the veracity of opinions to the contrary, saying that Hashem should forgive the achronim who wrote that it’s mutar in kach vekach circumstance.
This may not be easily palatable, but as someone who learns dibros moshe, I believe rav moshe was on the level of the early achronim. Besides rav akiva eiger, I’ve never seen anything like rav moshe, in depth, breadth, lomdus, rigor, comprehensiveness, everything. If rav moshe dismisses something as crucial as this, it is not to be taken lightly.
In any other area in halacha, would we say something is a “machlokes rav moshe and the tzitz eliezer”? They’re not in the same universe, as big of a talmid chacham as the tzitz eliezer was – he was, in fact, a big posek and wayyyy bigger than me and anyone else here, but nobody who knew both figures would compare them. The only people i would compare rav moshe with in his time were the chazon ish, brisker rov, tchebiner, satmar rov, and not many others.May 23, 2022 12:02 am at 12:02 am #2089680
Please keep in mind that the culture war over abortion has very little to do with ethics. It’s a tool to control the electorate and maintain class separation.May 23, 2022 12:43 am at 12:43 am #2089700
you may be right and your opponents holding by minority opinion, but generally exalting R Moshe to press people to disregard a different serious posek is simply halachic bullying. With pasken with R yohachan against Resh Lakish in almost all cases, but R Yohanan did not resort to “do you know who I am” argument and one time when it became personal did not end well and is probably a lesson for us.May 23, 2022 5:44 am at 5:44 am #2089714
Nomesorah – what flavor was the kool aid?May 23, 2022 5:44 am at 5:44 am #2089715
AAQ, is it bullying to say that if the rabbi of a young Israel shul thinks that halacha is kach vekach, and then you show him a teshuva from rav Moshe, does that constitute a machlokes between rabbi steven and rav moshe?
We all understand this idea to some extent. When it comes to fundamentals, we need to rely on the gedolei gedolim, the bearers of the mesorah, and not every qualified posek(like the tzitz eliezer) is in that category.May 23, 2022 5:45 am at 5:45 am #2089716
Your argument from rebbe yochanan and reish lakish is misplaced; reish lakish was a talmid chaver who argued, and was permitted to because he was on that level.
The average talmid of rebbe yochanan was not qualified to argue on him, and we don’t record such opinions, though I’m sure there were many. They don’t count. If Rav moshe is very shtark about something and denies the authenticity of an idea, then only people in his league are relevant to mention.
You’re comparing apples and oranges.May 23, 2022 9:37 am at 9:37 am #2089769
That is a question for Rav Moshe. There are instances where Rav Moshe had strong opinions, yet specifically stated that others are allowed to disagree. I don’t know how far it goes. But Rav Waldenberg was definitely in the category of the others who disagreed with Rav Moshe. [The four you mentioned is an odd collection.] What is your basis for this idea?May 23, 2022 9:39 am at 9:39 am #2089800
” And they would scream “murderer!” Without getting into any shailos if it’s *really* murder or not.”
Speak for yourself, may be your zeideh was an am haaretz. not sure that is muttar to say, but definitely don;t say that about all of us
And you have a funny idea about how pesak works. This isn’t about who was “bigger” A point you’ve made a few times that is completely irrelevant . (See YD 3:88 where he gives chizuk to someone afraid to argue with the Chazon Ish) Sure R’ Moshe is greater, pesak doesnt always follow who was “greater” .
you personally hold like R’ Moshe, Beseder. He is vey happy I’m sure he is pumped to get your stamp of approval.
“”you may be right and your opponents holding by minority opinion””
H isnt right. R’ Moshe Is the minority opinion. As demonstrated repeatedly .
Though certainly I’d be chosesh for such a significant minority opieion for such a potetially chamur issur
“or undergoes an abortion will be executed”
undergoing is probably not assur, there is probably no lifnei iver for a beni noach.
but sure I agree
“Why is there even any hava mina that there might be a right to kill a mamzer, any more than to kill a non-mamzer?”
There is no such hava aminah. but according to most poskim abortion isnt murder. In the case of a mamzer R’ Yaakov Emden holds it is muttar to abort (not murder obviously) a mamzer.May 23, 2022 9:40 am at 9:40 am #2089809
” but generally exalting R Moshe to press people to disregard a different serious posek is simply halachic bullying”
I don;lt think its bullying, I think heis new t oall this . So he thinks Saying “R’ Moshe ” over and over and telling us how great he was (As if the rest of us don;t know) is a winning argument,
As he learns more he’ll fins several pesakim
This on the other hand ” They’d recoil in horror at the shattering of skulls, dismemberment and brutal torture that abortion often entails.” is a bt more bullying.
Though it too is irrelevent. My Bubbeh would recoil in horro at a description of how Sereifa is done. That doesnt mean we skip the end of Sanhedrin come to think of it there are a few blat in Yevamos she’d recoil from too, I guess we skip those ?May 23, 2022 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #2090029
ubiq > there are a few blat in Yevamos she’d recoil from too
I am not a “progressive” but it seems that R Moshe great-great-grand-son will not agree with this (because R Moshe’s granddaughter might be learning Yevamos).May 24, 2022 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2090464
No reasonable person thinks that abortion is not murder.
Its a completely ridiculous idea that removing a neshomo from a guf is not murder bc of the physical location of the guf.
The neshomo comes in at 40 days. This is chazal.
By definition killing is the removal of a neshomo from a guf. Killing is actually called נטילת נשמה. When done premeditatively it is murder.
The Rambam calls the halchos of murder הלכות רוצח ושמירת נפש. Emphasis on nefesh. Which comes in at 40 days.
If you think you have a source that says as such you are simply misreading or it is a false source (like the false Rashba R Moshe exposes)
Its a mefurash chazal that has no cholkim that the issur comes from שופך דם האדם באדם – The prohibition of murder.
There are no gemoras and no rishonim who dispute this. End of discussion. I am just quoting R Moshe. Anyone who argues is simply making things up wo any basis at all. Again , R Moshe in language he never uses. This is what R Moshe says. He also writes שרי ליה מאריה on the חכם אחד (the tzitz Eliezer) a very derogatory term. Not R Moshes way at all. This was clearly a breach of halakhic norm not just another legitimate machlokes. The tzitz Eliezer let his pity on Tay Sachs babies and or their parents overide clear halocho and R Moshe called him out on it . Tay Sachs is indeed horrible and people like Reb Eliezer here also seem to think that that is enough of a basis to be mattir. Bc the Torah can’t be cruel like that. The tzitz Eliezer fell into the same trap Reb Eliezer did.
Nothing is ever more chamur in Din for a goy over a Jew. Only the punishment goyim are chayyav misa for things yidden are not.
But you never find that for a yid something is muttar and for a goy it is assur.
And bichlal to say that it is murder for a goy but not for a yid is simply absurd and irrational. Either it is murder or it isn’t. You can’t just make things up. Again, removing a neshomo from a guf is killing by definition. When premeditated and not a shliach Beis Din or a השכם להורגו situation it becomes murder. By definition.
The fact that there is no chiyyuv misa on abortion could be like was quoted in the name of R Tendler. Or more simply, it is like not being chayyav misa for premeditated murder via a grommo. To actually be chayyav misa it is not enough to murder, there are other technicalities involved that we can speculate as to why they are true. But killing via a grommo is no less murder than killing direct regardless of the penalty.May 24, 2022 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2090469
Those who argue that abortions prevent unworthy lives from being lived bc of poverty or an unloving mother etc. should know they are talmidim of the author of mein kampf.
He felt that only the strong and productive should be allowed to live. The rest should be killed. And his talmidim acted on that belief.
In a sense you are worse than him in this respect bc he only wanted to kill ‘unhealthy’ or deformed human beings. While you promote the valuelessness of perfectly healthy people who will have to face difficulties and challenges in life. Or are a burden to the rest of us financially.
There is no question that the author of mein kampf would think it a mitzvah to abort unwanted children.
That is your Rebbe.May 24, 2022 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2090472
Someone quoted R Shlomo Zalman as being mattir abortions.
Surprise surprise, lo hada”m.
See נשמת אברהם חושן משפט סימן תכה.
The chutzpa to quote a non existent psak as halacho is astonishing.
R Shlomo Zalman even assers doing amniocentesis to see if Tay Sachs is present.
If a woman is raped, r”l, an abortion pill may be taken up to 72 hours – no more – from the rape.
A doctor must not perfrom an abortion or put a woman under in order for an abortion to be done by someone else even under Pain of losing ones parnosso.
One may not even perform an ultrasound to determine if an abortion will take place. Here there is an exception though if one will lose his parnosso if he does not perform the ultrasound.
These are piskei din from r Shlomo Zalman.
Stop being motzi Shem Ra on one of the gedolei hador and gonask mechila. Alternatively,learn how to read before quoting someone.May 24, 2022 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #2090544
Look at Yevamos ~ 66 discussing whether a kid inside a goat designated for karban is a separate entity, connected to a case of a pregnant geyores, This should lead to opinions of whether a baby is a separate person before it is born, including for non-Jews
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