April 21, 2016 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1149768
Avi: Chacham Ovadia is on the record as supporting the pullout. He is not on any record as later regretting his original position. In either event, at most regretting it would demonstrate he believes giving land didn’t bring peace in that instance. It would not reverse his fundamental position that if peace can be achieved by giving up sovereignty of the land then it is halachicly mandatory to give up sovereignty to preserve Jewish lives.
And the halachic position that it is halachicly mandatory to give up sovereignty to preserve Jewish lives is the position of the Gedolei Yisroel across streams, Sephardic and Ashkenazic. Rav Shach explicit stated land for peace is “permitted and necessary to compromise on even half of the Land of Israel”.
And the Brisker Rov recently stated that if the zionist government continues in its efforts to make it untenable for Bnei Yeshiva to devote themselves to Limud Torah, it may be necessary and required for the Bnei Torah to move out of Eretz Yisroel in order to continue their Torah studies.April 21, 2016 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1149769rabbiofberlinParticipant
“groan”……..I always try to avoid these sterile discussions but one remark by “Joseph” had me choke on my morning coffee and impelled me to comment. He writes:
“sovereignty is not worth one jewish life”. This comment is nonsensical, flies in the face of all of jewish history and actually debases Am Yisroel and millions of jews who, throughout history have fought for the independence of Eretz Yisroel.
His comment will come as an affront to Jehoshua and the tribes, to Dovid Hamelech and all of the Melochim of Baiyt rishon, to the Chasmonoin,to Rabbi Akiva who believed in Bar Kochba, in all of the Rishonim who clearly believed in waging war,especially a defensive one…..and many other examples.
This kind of remark is truly dangerous as it will endanger and commit to destruction millions of jews. And it is a fabrication and a lie.April 21, 2016 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1149770
And rob compares Yehoshua and Dovid Hamelech to Bibi Netanyahu and his zionist regime and then makes deductions from that comparison to justify shedding Jewish blood.April 21, 2016 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1149771
ROB- To play devil’s advocate on behalf of Joseph. I think he meant Zionist sovereignty is not worth one Jewish life. This makes sense for those who don’t consider Zionism a Jewish movement and don’t consider Zionism to have any halachik value. Zionist sovereignty is no different than Arab sovereignty for them, so why should Jewish lives be put at risk for one secular government over another?April 21, 2016 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1149772
Joseph: One does not have to compare Bibi and Yehoshua to point out that there can be a lesson learned (and argued upon) that Yishuv Eretz Yisrael is Doche Pikuach Nefesh. (Or, as the Minchas Chinuch would formulate it, Pikuach Nefesh was never said B’makom this Mitzvah.)
Joseph: I believe R’ Ovadia’s sons have gone on record that he was Chozer on “land for peace”. I’ll try to find a source.
(Derech Agav: I think everyone agrees that if giving away land would guarantee peace, then we should give away land. The only Machloksim by land for peace were whether it is Muttar to do so given that it wouldn’t work because the Arabs would still want to kill us. It’s a machlokes in “Metzius”, i.e. the sociological Metzius of the Arab communities. So when R’ Ovadia was Chozer, it wasn’t a change in Shittah, just in what he expected from the Arabs.)April 21, 2016 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1149773rabbiofberlinParticipant
simcha613: -sigh- It is totally irrelevant that Eretz Yisroel is led by Zionists. The plain fact is that eight million people live there now, six and a half million are jews. Any change of sovereignty condemns these people to oppression and death. All you have to do is look at everyday news of what is happening in that part of the world EVERY DAY. To claim-as you seem to say- that “Zionist sovereignty is no different than Arab sovereignty” is dangerous and a blatant lie. And it is not a secular government. It has a great many frum jews amongst the leaders-including chareidim.April 21, 2016 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1149774
1. You are wrong regarding Chacham Ovadia. In fact, he created a storm when he publicly stated that Sharon would get a “boom” in his head. He then said that Sharon would live long.
3. Who would have them? Even under the Lapid plan those few who are really learning would receive a deferment. The “butterflies”, as they are called here, would get to release their energies in a positive fashion rather than spend their time spitting on little girls and putting up posters in the names of “the gedolim, shelita”.
Simcha, first of all there is no such thing as sovereignty of a political movement. Does the Democratic Party have sovereignty over the US? Sovereignty is in the hands of Am Yisrael. The government is merely the representative of the sovereign chosen for the sake of efficiency (imagine a “town meeting” with several million participants). If you cannot tell the difference between the present government (which, FYI, includes Yaakov Litzman of UTJ and Arye Deri of Shas) and any possible Arab government then you have a very serious problem.April 21, 2016 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1149775
Simcha613 -To play devil’s advocate on behalf of Simcha613 & ROB & Avi K. I think they mean Zionist sovereignty is worth Many Jewish lives. (That is – as long as it’s Not them or their families!)April 21, 2016 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1149776
First of all, I didn’t mean that I didn’t think there was a difference between Arab sovereignty and Zionist sovereignty. I was merely speaking in extremes to express how Anti-Zionists delegitimize the “Jewishness” and halachik significance of the Zionsit entity.
My response to Health- As we see from Tanach and Halacha, Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is worth fighting for even if it puts lives at risk. Zionist sovereignty allows for the maximum amount of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel and is therefore worth fighting to defend. Am Yisro’el Be’Eretz Yisro’el.April 21, 2016 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1149777
Avi K- Zionism is more than political movement and has been since 1948. The very basis of the government and legal system are based on Zionism which has its own political parties. Yes, there is religious representation as well, but there are limits to their power. I don’t think they would be able to change the nature of the government of Israel into a theocracy based on the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch even if they were in power.
My personal opinion, is that the State of Israel as it stands is a secular state (with some significant Jewish influences). As it is a secular state, I am hesitant to say that the State of Israel is synonymous with Jewish Sovereignty over the Land of Israel. (I guess a question can be made how to compare the current secular State of Israel with the idol worshiping Malchei Yisroel of Tanach- was that not considered Jewish Sovereignty either?)
But, the secular State of Israel offers more opportunities for Yishuv Eretz Yisroel (Right of Return), more governmental funds towards Torah and maintaining holy areas, and more manpower to defending Eretz Yisroel and Jewish People in Eretz Yisroel and around the world. Not to mention the fact that Giyur and Marriage run through the State Rabbinate limits the existence of intermarriage even among completely irreligious Jews. No other secular government would offer that to Klal Yisorel and that’s something we all need to appreciate.April 21, 2016 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1149778mw13Participant
“I think everyone agrees that if giving away land would guarantee peace, then we should give away land.”
I wonder what Avi K thinks about that…April 21, 2016 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1149779
Simcha613 -“My response to Health- As we see from Tanach and Halacha, Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is worth fighting for even if it puts lives at risk. Zionist sovereignty allows for the maximum amount of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel and is therefore worth fighting to defend. Am Yisro’el Be’Eretz Yisro’el.”
Stop with the Zionist propaganda!
EY can be controlled by Turkey. They allowed you to move anywhere in the land.
Jewish lives are valuable; Not to be sacrificed on the altar of Zionism!April 21, 2016 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1149780
Turkey would not have a right of return givng all Jews automatic citizenship when returning to Eretz Yisroel. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that yishuv Eretz Yisroel would be happening at the same quantity and quality under any other regime.April 22, 2016 3:07 am at 3:07 am #1149781
Health: The Minchas Chinuch was fueled by Zionist propaganda?April 22, 2016 8:11 am at 8:11 am #1149782
1.If they had power they could write and pass a halachic constitution. However, IMHO they are very happy being the state’s grandfathers
(??”? = ????? ??? ??????). In fact, a Chareidi rav told me explicitly that they would not know how to run the state. However, we in the RZ sector are not sleeping. The Ministry of Justice has a section on Jewish law headed by the RZ Dr. Michael Vigoda, the Knesset has an adviser on Jewish law who has “yadin yadin”as well as an LLM and iy”H on the 26th of Nissan there will be an erev iyun in Yerushalayim on running the economy according to Torah.
2. Achav was much worse than any Israeli PM and he had the din of a king (Sanhedrin 20b Tosafot d”h melech muttar).
MW, I follow the Ramban, Rav Avraham Shapira and Rav Mordechai Eliahu that conquering EY is a milchemet mitzva in our time. In any case, land for peace is a delusion. Chacham Ovadia even admitted this in his essay on the subject. Interestingly, when I was in elementary school we had to take an annual standardized exam called the Iowa test (it was developed by the College of Education of the University of Iowa). One question davka involved an Arab. He was sitting in his tent when his camel asked if he would put his nose in as it was cold in the desert night. At the end of the story the Arab was outside and the camel was inside. The moral of the story was “give him an inch and he will take a mile”.
I would, however, declare an end to the struggle in exchange for lands they are occupying.
1. The Tanach is Zionist propaganda?
2. Actually, southwestern Turkey is part of the land promised to Avraham Avinu so they should give it to us.April 22, 2016 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1149783
Simcha613 -“Turkey would not have a right of return givng all Jews automatic citizenship when returning to Eretz Yisroel. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that yishuv Eretz Yisroel would be happening at the same quantity and quality under any other regime”
You’re right! Only the Zionists are interested in Shmad, like they did to the Yeminite Jews!April 22, 2016 11:31 am at 11:31 am #1149784
Sam2 -“Health: The Minchas Chinuch was fueled by Zionist propaganda?”
Don’t make up stories! I never said that.April 22, 2016 11:37 am at 11:37 am #1149785
Avi K -“1. The Tanach is Zionist propaganda?”
No it’s not. You do that!
“2. Actually, southwestern Turkey is part of the land promised to Avraham Avinu so they should give it to us.”
When Moshiach comes, we will have the whole world.April 22, 2016 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1149786
Health: Then what is the Zionist propaganda that you are decrying?
“When Moshiach comes, we will have the whole world.”
Where do you get that from? Eretz Yisrael won’t be the whole world.April 22, 2016 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1149787
Sam- I think Health accidentally replaced his Tanach with the Protocols.April 24, 2016 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1149788MTABParticipant
–My personal opinion, is that the State of Israel as it stands is a secular state (with some significant Jewish influences). As it is a secular state, I am hesitant to say that the State of Israel is synonymous with Jewish Sovereignty over the Land of Israel.–
You are sort of correct. Come live here a while and you’ll see how correct. This place is pure secularity. In America I sat at work between two Catholics. In Israel, I sit between two atheists.
Where you are wrong is the part about significant Jewish influence. They only steal Jewish symbols because they can’t think of any on their own. The chilonim hate Judaism.April 25, 2016 3:14 am at 3:14 am #1149789
Sam2 -“Where do you get that from? Eretz Yisrael won’t be the whole world.”
And I thought you knew Gemorra. Kedusha EY will be Mispashet in the whole world!April 25, 2016 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1149790
I think Simcha613 replaced his Judaism with his Zionism!April 25, 2016 4:15 am at 4:15 am #1149791
Health: I do know (some) Gemara. I can’t 100% guarantee it, but I would be willing to strongly wager (yes, yes, Sanhedrin 23b and Rosh Hashana 22(ish), etc.) that there is no such Gemara anywhere in Talmud Bavli.April 25, 2016 4:58 am at 4:58 am #1149792
I do not know how long you have been out of America or where you lived (or where you live in Israel). Today in the Obamanation (as opposed to red states – which is a very ironic appellation) you might very well sit between a man who is marrying a man and a woman who is marrying a woman – and woe to you if you do not congratulate them. Not to mention the fact that you would, as we say in keriat shema, worship foreign gods (go to Xmas parties, give Xmas tips, love your Sundays, which one rav derisively called “Shabbat sheniah shel galuyot”).
Rav Kook explained that these Jews rebel because of a misconception of Judaism. In his time it was that Judaism is only spiritual (and BTW, the King is a secular official who has significant Jewish influences). Today the main problem comes from so-called religious parties (Rav Chaim Zimmerman called them clerical parties because they use religion for political purposes) which have turned off many Israelis.
However, despite all this according to all of the polls Israelis are becoming more religious. Even HaShomer HaTzair kibbbutzim are building shuls and asking for rabbanim to come and give shiurim. In the heart of secular Tel Aviv there is a kiruv organization called Rosh Yehudi. As for “stealing” Jewish symbols, why would someone steal something he hates?
Sam and Health, as Rambam says at the end of Hilchot Melachim, we will not know exactly what will be until it happens. It could be that all other countries will retain sovereignty but the International Court of Justice will be the Sanhedrin. It could also be that they will turn to Israeli think tanks for advisory opinions regarding the sheva mitzvot.
BTW, Health, Zionism is part of Judaism. For two thousand years we have prayed to return to Zion. Of course, some people only pray by force of habit. There is a story about a Jew who was window shopping when he felt a punch in his chest. Seeing nobody around him he realized that he was a “selach lanu”. Once after the tefilla the Gerrer rebbe welcome someone home from his world tour. He said that Jews are much better at business than goyim because we have three times each day to think about it.April 25, 2016 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1149793
Health- I guess I deserved that. I apologize for my comment.
Honestly, I have no idea if we will “have the world” when Mashiach comes. The only thing I know, is that when Mashiach comes, we will have our government/kingdom in Eretz Yisroel, we will have a Beis HaMikdash, and there will be universal knowledge and recognition of God. Does that mean that will be the end of all other countries and there will be a new world order with the King of the Jews as the King of the World? I have no idea.April 25, 2016 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1149794
Sam2 -“Health: I do know (some) Gemara. I can’t 100% guarantee it, but I would be willing to strongly wager (yes, yes, Sanhedrin 23b and Rosh Hashana 22(ish), etc.) that there is no such Gemara anywhere in Talmud Bavli”
How old are you? Stop being so haughty! I’ll give you a hint – it’s either in Pesachim or in Soteh.April 25, 2016 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1149795
Avi K -“BTW, Health, Zionism is part of Judaism.”
Not the way the Zionist’s nowadays practice it. That’s Avodah Zora!April 25, 2016 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1149796
Health, how is it a”z? Which politician do they accept as a god? I would say that today’s a”z is belief in an omniscient and omnipotent mekkubal, rav or rebbe. Money is also a form of a”z.April 25, 2016 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1149797
Health: How old I am isn’t relevant. I can guarantee, though, that there is no Gemara in Pesachim that says that Eretz Yisrael will be the whole world and I am pretty sure (can’t quite guarantee it, though) that there is no such Gemara in Sotah.
It’s not about being haughty or arrogant. You claimed a Gemara existed. You didn’t provide a citation or a Daf. There is no way to prove a negative other than showing you the entire Masechta and showing that no such Gemara exists. It is unfortunate, but there is really no way to call you out for citing a fake Gemara without seeming a little bit arrogant. There is just no way to do it.April 25, 2016 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1149798ChortkovParticipant
Health – You can continue your arguing as long as you like, but please refrain from insulting people who haven’t insulted you.April 25, 2016 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1149799
Sam2 -“I can guarantee, though, that there is no Gemara in Pesachim that says that Eretz Yisrael will be the whole world and I am pretty sure (can’t quite guarantee it, though) that there is no such Gemara in Sotah.
It’s not about being haughty or arrogant”
The arrogance is that you wrote – that there is No such Gemorra! I told you which Masectah it is in. If you want the exact Daf, go ask your Rabbi in YU, or pay me to tell you.April 26, 2016 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1149800
Health: Pay you to tell me? If you knew Gemara you’d know that it’s Assur to take money for teaching Divrei Torah like that.
But I’m only being arrogant if I’m wrong. I’m still pretty sure I’m not wrong. There is no such Gemara. If you want to claim that there is, Alecha Lehavi Ra’aya. Quote the Gemara.April 26, 2016 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1149801
He doesn’t know where it is.April 26, 2016 2:39 am at 2:39 am #1149802
DY: Can you back me up here, maybe? Does his nonexistent Gemara exist?April 26, 2016 2:45 am at 2:45 am #1149803
Leshem quotes it as a Midrash.April 26, 2016 3:08 am at 3:08 am #1149804
DY: So it’s not a Gemara, and he seems to say it as Eretz Yisrael will conquer the whole world, not that the whole world magically becomes part of Eretz Yisrael. (To be fair, though, I don’t think Health’s claim went contrary to that.)April 26, 2016 3:15 am at 3:15 am #1149805
I would guess if he quotes a midrash, it’s not a gemara.
I don’t know why you say “conquer”; he says:
???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????April 26, 2016 3:20 am at 3:20 am #1149806
DY: Because he explains it in the context of the whole world attacking Eretz Yisrael then E”Y winning. (I could be wrong, I skimmed it quickly; but isn’t that what he says?)April 26, 2016 3:33 am at 3:33 am #1149807
Not really – he’s referring to two tekufos after milchemes Gog uMagog, and the spiritual elevation that will take place.
I’m not the person (and this probably isn’t the place) to discuss Kabbalah; I just searched and found this, which I think shows that a) the concept exists, and b) it’s probably not a gemara, but it is a midrash.April 26, 2016 5:21 am at 5:21 am #1149808
Sam, why do the losers have to lose sovereignty? Germany lost WW1 but retained its sovereignty – and there are many other examples.
Moreover, he The term “?????? ??? ?????” could mean that the ????? ??????? ???? will also apply in ??”?. It could also mean that the spiritual characteristics of EY, such as
????? ???? ????? ????? will also apply there.April 26, 2016 5:47 am at 5:47 am #1149809
Sam2 -“Health: Pay you to tell me? If you knew Gemara you’d know that it’s Assur to take money for teaching Divrei Torah like that.”
It’s only Assur to take money for teaching you Torah. I’m charging for my time!
“But I’m only being arrogant if I’m wrong.”
And you are! I told you it’s a Gemorra & where it is.April 26, 2016 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1149810
Health, for your time you get the wage of someone who guards a zucchini garden (???? ???????) – minimum wage. As of July 2015, the federal government mandates a nationwide minimum wage level of $7.25 per hour. That is $0.00201388888 for each second it takes for you to type and post the information (assuming that you know it from memory).April 26, 2016 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1149811
Health: “If you want the exact Daf, go ask your Rabbi in YU, or pay me to tell you.” Sounds a lot like you’re not charging for time. You’re on the site anyway. You just want money to tell me the source. That sounds like a violation of Mah Ani B’chinam to me. Also, see Avi K’s post.
You did not tell me where it is. You gave me a Masechta. (Actually, you gave me one of two Masechtos.) I even looked. It’s not in either of them.April 26, 2016 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1149812
Avi: How do dayanim take more than minimum wage?April 26, 2016 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1149813
Joseph: We have somehow found a way to pay people for learning Torah, more than the Gemara seemingly allows. The Poskim discuss it and fight Heterim. But if what Health claimed isn’t a violation of Af Atem B’chinam, then nothing is.April 26, 2016 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1149814
Avi K -“Health, for your time you get the wage of someone who guards a zucchini garden (???? ???????) – minimum wage.”
He hasn’t even offered anything! And I did try looking for it. Let him try looking in the Aggadata of those Gemorras.April 26, 2016 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1149815
I don’t know the halachos of salary for Torah but this exchange seems very strange… Health makes a statement, Sam2 questions it and asks for an exact source, and Health offers to provide it for payment?April 26, 2016 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1149816mw13Participant
if what Health claimed isn’t a violation of Af Atem B’chinam, then nothing is.
First of all, I think its pretty obvious that Health was not actually expecting any payment here. That statement was just part of his general bluster. (As was the case in http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-zionism-the-yetzer-hora/page/6#post-607909)
But anyway, even if he would have been serious, I don’t see why the heterim that apply to paying Rebbeim (sechar battalah, chiddushei sofrim, etc) wouldn’t apply here.April 27, 2016 5:18 am at 5:18 am #1149817
Joseph, actually that is doubly problematic as paying a dayan looks like bribery. Apparently, just as having toenim was allowed in stages because of people who were afraid to sue powerful people or who did not know how to argue for themselves, dayanim were allowed to receive salaries so that people would become dayanim. This is especially true in our day when instead of learning for ten-eleven years (in Israel the average is three for “Yoreh Yoreh” and seven-eight for “Yadin Yadin”) someone can go to law school for less (a total of seven years in the US and three and a half in Israel, where it is a B.A.). See the article “?????? – ????” in the ??????????? ?????? ??? on-line.
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