Is English Holy???

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  • #1736423

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Is English Holy

    More Seforim have been published in English than any other language except Hebrew

    More frum Yidden speak it than any other language

    It is the language of the Gedolim of the Coffee room

    #1736465

    Captain™
    Participant

    And it is the language of Pilots.

    Captain™

    #1736537

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Is Burmese holy?

    It is a is a tonal, pitch-register, and syllable-timed language.

    It is belongs to the Southern Burmish branch of the Sino-Tibetan languages.

    it is an official language of Myanmar and the language of the Bamar people.

    Am I playing this game right? I’m not so sure I understand it.

    #1736558

    klugeryid
    Participant

    No I don’t think you are
    Let me explain

    In a different thread, some posters posited, that Yiddish became a holy language, by dint of the fact that it has a long history of being spoken by Jews and / because much Torah has been communicated through it.

    Therefore this poster is asking, if that applies today to English being as you have the same ideas, although obviously not the same history.
    Namely, many jews speak it and a tremendous amount of Torah is learned and taught in it as well as many prayers are said using it.
    We do know that until the expulsion of jews from England I believe in the 1200’s? There were jews living in England so presumably they spoke and learned in English as well as Hebrew.
    So perhaps that gives English the holiness history as well.
    Are we therefore to conclude that English is a holy language?
    That seems to be the general idea of his post.
    I’ll be happy to try to clarify any further questions

    #1736557

    laskern
    Participant

    Having seforim written in a language, doesn’t make it holy. Yiddish might be because it distiguishes us from the umaa haolam. It is famous the words of the Chasam Sofee, ויבא יעקב ‘שלם’ שם, לשון, מלבוש name, language and dress. כי פי המדבר עליכם -לשון ההקודש is holy on its own. No dirry words in it.

    #1736586

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “In a different thread, some posters posited, that Yiddish became a holy language, by dint of the fact that it has a long history of being spoken by Jews and / because much Torah has been communicated through it.”

    You should reread that thread. Laskern is closer. The argument there was NOT (As was pointed out numerous times) that it is holy because it was “spoken by Jews”

    and besides, as you point out even if that WAS the argument, the English comparison, still falls flat “although obviously not the same history.”
    So clearly that can’t be the point of this game. Its not nice to interpret someone else’s post as saying something so silly.

    I’ll keep trying :
    Is Somali holy?

    It is an Afroasiatic language belonging to the Cushitic branch.
    It is the second most widely spoken Cushitic language after Oromo.
    As of 2013, it is also one of the featured languages available on Google Translate.

    #1736764

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    I was going to post Is English Holy but you beat me to it. My argument was Artscroll.

    #1736933

    klugeryid
    Participant

    You should reread that thread. Laskern is closer. The argument there was NOT (As was pointed out numerous times) that it is holy because it was “spoken by Jews”

    So I went back to that thread and here is some of what I found.

    JosephParticipant
    Yiddish is holy by virtue of it being the primary and exclusive language of Jews for over a thousand years. Even if it is our chol language.

    And some guy with a screen name ubiquitin wrote the following gem
    “Yiddish was the Jewish language for about 1000 years (give or take depending on your source) . That makes it special? sacred? important? How can it not sure it wasnt used exclusivly used for “holy” talk but it was used by holy people, were all of them frum as some posters claim others are claiming, of course not, but as a group it was spoken by the am hanivchar, it is unquestionably a Jewish language, the jews being a holy people, we have consecrated it making it holy (or scared/important/special since I’m not clear on what exactly holy means.”

    Maybe I have difficulty with the holy English language, (which as I pointed out before was clearly spoken by jews before their expulsion from England in 1290 making English an older Jewish language than Yiddish which oldest inscription is from a German machzor circa 1300’s ) but to me it seems pretty clear that these two posters at least, namely a Joseph and a Mr ubiquitin are certainly utilizing The idea that the fact that it has been used by jews for a long long time, infuses it with holiness? Speciality? Sacredness? Importance?

    #1736934

    Avi K
    Participant

    Klugeryid, the Jews who lived in England before the expulsion came with William the Conqueror. Thus they almost certainly spoke Norman French, which was also the language of the aristocracy (William wiped out the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy so that the common people would have no leadership) and the law courts until after the time that the Jews were expelled.

    #1737076

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Ky

    A few things, first of all as an aside your history is a bit shaky and at any rate 13 century English isn’t similar to ours (see the Yiddish thread for an example)

    Secondly and more importantly you quote joseph
    “Yiddish is holy by virtue of it being the primary and exclusive language of Jews for over a thousand years. ”

    When you have a moment look up “exclusive” you don’t seem to know what it means
    At least this part of your post “Maybe I have difficulty with the holy English language, ” is correct.

    You also cut my post short as I put in the same limitation as Joseph, that you failed to copy.

    So in your one post you displayed your ignorance of history, and of English as well as your dishonesty
    Great stuff

    #1737078

    klugeryid
    Participant

    From Joseph”s post

    by virtue of it being the primary and exclusive
    From the dictionary
    primary: noun
    plural primaries
    Definition of primary
    1 : something that stands first in rank, importance, or value

    Exclusive: single: sole

    So according to Joseph we have a language that is at once the first of multiple languages and also the only language.

    And I’m the one with the English comprehension issues

    As to your second half.
    I’d really appreciate if you could quote the exact lines from your post that I maliciously left out.
    I just reread your post multiple times
    It consists of three parts ( after you state :as For the subject at hand)
    1) an exegesis on holiness in general
    2) application and limitations of said parameters to Yiddish
    3) preemptive responses to hypothetical attacks on your post

    I cut and pasted number 2 fully.
    So I am really at a loss as to what you are accusing me of in terms of dishonesty.
    It’s fairly easy to make that claim. I think it will be more difficult to back it up.
    And that’s aside from the fact that you yourself state that your post is the same idea as Joseph albeit lengthier.
    Joseph”s post I quoted entirely.

    As to ignorance of history, yeah I’ve been saying that all along. If you would just read what I wrote, I was pretty open about the fact that I don’t really know much of the history. No great discovery by you, there.

    #1737221

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “And I’m the one with the English comprehension issues”

    Lol, yes!

    You skipped the second definition. (intentionally? Or just poor research? which way would dan lekaf zechus want me to assume, I’m sorry if I erred in my previous assumption when you left off some of my explanantion)
    2. restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned.

    “I’d really appreciate if you could quote the exact lines from your post that I maliciously left out.”

    sure: “but as a group it was spoken by the am hanivchar, it is unquestionably a Jewish language, the jews being a holy people, we have consecrated it making it holy ”

    THAT is the main point. Yiddish is holy because it is a JEWISH language, not because it was the language that just happened to be spoken by Jews. This was clarified over an over throughout that long silly thread.
    Or as Joseph put it IT was the primary and exclusive language of Jews.

    Now reasonable people can argue that that doesn’t make it “holy” (as Ive acknowledged several times, I’m not quite clear on what holy means, and am using “holy” perhaps a bit looser than its strict meaning )
    What is a bit loony to debate, as we seem to be, as to whether there is something “Jewish” about Yiddish, that just isnt true with English.
    Make no mistake, I prefer loony discussions, they are way more fun, than things we can “Agree to disagree on” like as to whether Vanilla or choclate is better, those arguments bore me. I much prefer arguments as to whether vanilla ice cream is white or whether Yiddish is more of a Jewish language than English

    #1737245

    klugeryid
    Participant

    um
    that line is in my quote
    please read fully before accusing me of willful omission

    you choose to say your hinging most of your argument on that, thats ok
    dont forget, i dont have time to search , but your the one who posted “i can only comment based on what you wrote. not intent”

    #1737321

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There was a video on the main page of a non-jew speaking yiddish. It was made to seem like it was an anomily. But in the Alter Heim it was not. Plenty of non-jews spoke yiddish. It might not have been their main language, but they spoke and understood

    #1737333

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “that line is in my quote”

    yowza thats embarrassing
    I have no idea how I missed that. I will go eat some humble pie now

    I am sorry for accusing you of willful omission

    I got caught up in what seemed to me to be an absurd discussion (namely whether English has the same connection to Jews as yiddish does, which is the gist of this thread for it to have any relevance ) and somehow missed that line.

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