Is every Yid a big tzaddik?

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  • #2133355
    jews4biden
    Participant

    It is a Machlokes if Noach was even was even a big tzaddik, or only better than the people of his generation. But is it possible to say Every yid is a big tzaddik? So many yidden do terrible things! Is that the meaning of the passuk “V’ameich Kulam Tzadikim”?

    I’d love to here everyone’s thoughts!

    #2133398
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    They have to be “ameich”, oseh maysoh amcha, performing what your nation performs. Reshoim aren’t part of that

    #2133401
    ujm
    Participant

    Noach was a Yid?

    #2133483
    besalel
    Participant

    of course not every yid is a tzaddik. the reform and conservative leaders imach shemam are reshaim. as for the passuk. veamcha kulam tzadikim, our chachamim already explained that this refers to oseh maaseh amecha – one who behaves like a jew. bernie sanders? norm finkelstein? howard zinn? noam chomsky? there is a mitzah to hasten their deaths.

    #2133493
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rabbenu Bachaya explains that together Jews are all tzadikim but when we count Jews directly, we separate them from the group and the individual’s bad is revealed causing a plague l’a. Chanoch hurt others as he protected himself by not mixing when they were compared to him, so it was beneficial to take him away.

    #2133499
    RebYid613
    Participant

    If you someone is chabad for example, would they like when you say the the “rebbe” is a big tzaddik from his “keppela” (head) to his “fissila “ (toes) the rebbe is a big tzaddik.
    It’s litzanis (mockery)!
    And is Bernie sanders for example a tzaddik? He’s a yid?

    #2133504
    smerel
    Participant

    >>>But is it possible to say Every yid is a big tzaddik?

    In the literal sense that some seem to be taking it , no.

    In the actual sense that it us being said that we regard every who tries to be an erlicher yid as a big Tzadik (at least in some areas) then yes it is can be regarded as a true statement

    >>>Is that the meaning of the passuk “V’ameich Kulam Tzadikim”

    The actual posuk in Yeshya is a part of a nevua that seems to be referring to after the coming of Mosiach. Being that it is frequently quoted in relation to todays time, it needs to be stressed that the posuk says V’ameich meaning those who are acting in a manner that makes them a part of Am Hashem.

    #2133518
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It says Shema Yisrael and the holy Shalah explains that it means unite as Vayshama Shaul es Haom so to be part of the group, one must recognize that Hashem is one by doing maasei amecha.

    #2133534
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    In the song it implied that only religious Jews are called yiddim

    1) they don’t say every Jew is a big tzaddik

    2) how are you Reb yid only mentions modern, litvish, sfardi, lubavitch and chassidish

    #2133530
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    “They have to be “ameich”, oseh maysoh amcha, perfoming what your nation performs. Reshoim aren’t part of that”

    What is your source?

    The Mishna & Gemara (סנהדרין צ, א) learns from the possuk “ועמך כולם צדיקים” that all Yidden have a share in Olam Habba.
    The מפרשים explain this to be referring to ALL Yidden, including רשעים who are חייב ד’ מיתות ב”ד.
    (See Rashi, Maharsha, etc.)

    This is also the halachic ruling of the Rambam (Teshuva, 3:5): Also רשעים have a share in Olam Habba, as it says, ועמך כולם צדיקים
    וכן כל הרשעים שעונותיהן מרבים דנין אותן כפי חטאיהם ויש להן חלק לעולם הבא, שכל ישראל יש להם חלק לעולם הבא אף על פי שחטאו, שנאמר ועמך כלם צדיקים לעולם יירשו ארץ.

    There are many different levels of when the term tzaddik is used, depending on the context.

    Chassidus explains that in this context צדיקים is referring to anyone who performs mitzvos, including רשעים, as the Gemara says (ערובין יט, א. חגיגה כז, א):
    “The fire of Gehinom has no power over the sinners of Israel, since they are filled with mitzvos like a pomegranate.”

    Why should we seek to push away other Yidden if we can bring them close? ידע איניש בנפשיה that we are all not perfect in serving Hashem, let us judge others in the way that we want Hashem to judge us.

    May we be zoche to the geulah shleima when it will be revealed that every Yid is a tzaddik.

    #2133536
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    And big tzaddik means like Noach in his generation (and keeping mitzvos in this generation is the same

    #2133562
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    “But is it possible to say Every yid is a big tzaddik?”

    Every person in his/her gift of FREE WILL given by Hashem only to Human beings is only responsible for his level between righteousness versus C”V Vice versa wickedness and only rewarded or punished for his/her level of life lives from beginning to end rather a big tzaddik or a simple person.

    May me all try to always be righteous and sin free but we all know the truth and so does Hashem take it into account that we all make mistakes in life done by accident and Hashem before even creating the world first created this amazing gift called Teshuva/ Repentance for any sins done by mistake or accident can always be asked forgiveness from Hashem directly or a friend hurt by mistake

    #2133578
    tunaisafish
    Participant

    As an enormous tzaddik I personally find this statement offensive!

    #2133589
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Menachem, the mishnah has a list of people who lose their olam haba, brought by and explained by the rambam. Embarrassing someone, mevazeh moados, etc…

    Oseh maysoh amcha can include sinners who do not violate the things in that mishnah.

    Aee bava kama 94b for starters; chazal darshen amcha / oseh maysoh amcha many times.

    Most people who say not to judge are the ones who are the most judgemental. Take a look at how these people view satmar, or anyone else who’s frummer than they are. Or if a person violates something that they consider “really bad.” Most people are fine with ths “look at the pinteleg yid” if he’s mechalel shabbos, eats treif and spews apikorsus (I’m talking about people who know better, not people who grow up with no shaychus)….but if they support Palestinians(like many college kids) or if they’re guilty of something else that the “non judgemental” person deems truly evil….that pinteleh yid talk goes straight out the window

    #2133609
    Get-r-dun
    Participant

    How about if you’re a jew4rbiden, are you still a tzaddik?

    #2133691
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Avira,

    I know about the limmud of עושה מעשה עמך, I was saying that we don’t find this limmud regarding ועמך כולם צדיקים. On the contrary, it is coming to include this who are not generally עושה מעשה עמך.

    Re Judgemental

    Unfortunately, our behavior often doesn’t reflect on our views. I think that it’s terrible and ossur to speak lashon harah, yet I often slip up.

    Although someone could believe in being non-judgemental and only see another for his pintele Yid, practically when someone bothers him personally he can react terribly.
    Making our day to day life in sync with our belief system is the life struggle of every Yid.

    #2133698
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    How about one who is for Trump who only cares about himself?

    #2133762
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Avira is wrong. It doesn’t say anywhere oseh maaseh amcha in regard to that pasuk.

    Also, not every Jew is a tzadik. The very definition of a tzadik is someone is not a beinoni. Someone who is never mesiach days from the Hashem (at least according to the best of his abilities).

    They lied to you in preschool. Get over it. Maybe give your kids some quality chinuch yourself instead of entrusting all of their initial Torah learning to a handful of underpaid young women who are barely knowledgeable themselves. As a general rule, you cannot fulfill your obligation to teach your sons Torah by leaving it all to women. This is a great way to have your child off to a bad start.

    #2133766
    smerel
    Participant

    >>>The very definition of a tzadik is someone is not a beinoni. Someone who is never mesiach days from the Hashem (at least according to the best of his abilities).

    Where is that definition coming form? A tzadik is not a benoni the same way a cohen is not a Yisroel
    but that isn’t the very definition.

    The Rambam Hilchos Teshuva 3:1 says

    כָּל אֶחָד וְאֶחָד מִבְּנֵי הָאָדָם יֵשׁ לוֹ זְכֻיּוֹת וַעֲוֹנוֹת. מִי שֶׁזְּכֻיּוֹתָיו יְתֵרוֹת עַל עֲוֹנוֹתָיו
    צַדִּיק. וּמִי שֶׁעֲוֹנוֹתָיו יְתֵרוֹת עַל זְכֻיּוֹתָיו רָשָׁע.
    מֶחֱצָה לְמֶחֱצָה בֵּינוֹנִי

    I’m unwilling to say that the typical person who is Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos does not have more zcuyos than aveiros and therefore meets the Rambam’s criteria of being called a Tzadik.

    Without giving any boich svoras why are you so sure otherwise?

    #2133765
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Shimon, how cynical.

    Al titosh toras imecha; women are able to give over jewish gefeelt, yiras shomayim, and ahavas Hashem, in some ways more than rebbeim, especially for little kids

    #2133806
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Think about it. Approximately 6 or 7 of the lamud vuv tzadikim are regulars here in the CR. Extrapolate that to the greater tzibur at large, many of whom have not received a heter from their LRPs to be here on the internet.

    #2133839
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Shimon,

    As I said, there are several definitions of the term tzaddik, depending on the context.

    The definition that you gave is the one that is brought in Tanya and proven from many mamorei razal.
    However, the Alter Rebbe (Baal Hatanya) himself acknowledges that the term is sometimes used with other meanings (like in the Rambam quoted by smerel, or והצדיקו את הצדיק, etc.).

    Re Morahs (I reply with a grain of sensitivity just in case you are suffering trauma from your kindergarten morah):

    Don’t be so quick to condemn. Remember the תשובת הרשב”א (brought in שו”ת השיב משה סימן יג):
    אין לדחות קבלה שיש ביד הנשים הזקנות מבני עמנו מפני שישים ריבוא מופתים המראים סתרו

    #2133888
    akuperma
    Participant

    If you define a “Yid” as someone who is Shomer Shabbos (meaning, most importantly, not working at your “real world” job on Shabbos), and Shomer Kashrus (meaning the for all purposes you can never eat outside the home unless you bring your own food or make special arrangements such as locating a kosher restaurant), you could say the every “Yid” is showing such tremendous meserias nefesh that they can be considered a tsaddik. Just being Shomer Shabbos and Shomer Kashrus (not to mention many other mitsvos), means you give up perhaps 90% of the employment opportunities in the United States (either because the job involves work on Shabbos, requires schooling that involves work on Shabbos, or involves travel or geographic locations where observance of Shabbos and Kashrus is not practical).

    #2133890
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When I was looking for a job in a mostly Jewish company in computer programming, I was rejected as I was told that they were looking for a Shabbos goy. The new systems are placed into production over Shabbos and they need someone who can baby sit it to monitor if any problems occur.

    #2133963
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You cannot contradict the Pasuk. It says צדיק תמים. What Rebbi Yochanan is saying is that Noach wouldn’t have stood out in Avraham Avinu’s time. Noach didn’t do anything wrong but Avraham Avinu brought the Shechina to the world.

    #2133998
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    HaLevi, provided if he stayed the way he is but he would have become a different person through the influence of Avraham. He learned from his grandfather Hanoch who did not want to mix with others fearing his own piety.

    #2134023
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Akuperma,

    Anyone born of a Jewish mother or who did halachic conversion has an intrinsic connection to Hashem, infinitely more than any other creature on Earth.

    This person is defined as Yid. The term has nothing to do with one’s behavior.

    #2134054
    akuperma
    Participant

    MenachemShmuel: If you use the halachic definition then you have a problem since a great many Jewish women have been assimilated (perhaps they went OTD, perhaps they were enslaved), and over the millenia, a not inconsiderable number of goyim are actual Jews (one Jewish girl enslaved during Roman times has a tremendous number of descendants scattered throughout Europe and the Middle East) . That is in addition to the fact that in recent times (the last 200 years), most members of the frum community have gone OTD, and within a generation are then absorbed in the larger population. Most Jews living today, based on the halachic definition, think they are goyim, and they are in no way tsaddikim.

    I suggest limiting the use of the word “Yid” to refer only to the small minority of Jews who identify as Jews, and keep at least some of the mitsvos (particularly Shabbos and Kashrus, which more than anything set us apart for the goyim) and by doing so show great mesiras nefesh even if they don’t realize it, so that my answer to the original question is that “Yes, all Yidden are great tsadikkin”.

    #2134060
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Akuperma,

    Your suggestion is against Torah.
    Who gave you the right to throw away millions of Hashem’s children, when the Gemara tells us אע”פ שחטא ישראל הוא, and בין כך ובין כך בני הם (which is even referring to a Yid who is משומד לעבודה זרה ר”ל – Rashba Shu”t 1:194)?

    How much more so when we are talking about a person who knows nothing about his own religion (due to lack of education), all he knows is that his nation is the most persecuted in the entire world, yet he show great mesiras nefesh by identifying himself as Jewish, despite not knowing what it means practically.

    In a way, the essential connection that we all have to Hashem is even more visible on such a person than a frum Yid who received a Jewish education.

    #2134219
    Ari Knobler
    Participant

    Saying every Yid is a tzaddik is an inane as saying every gentile is a rasha.

    #2134230
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Hey Ari, check this out

    משא”כ נפשות אומות עובדי גלולים הן משאר קליפות טמאות שאין בהן
    טוב כלל כמ”ש בע”ח שער מ”ט פ”ג וכל טיבו דעבדין האומות עובדי גלולים לגרמייהו עבדין וכדאיתא בגמרא ע”פ וחסד לאומים חטאת שכל צדקה וחסד שאומות עובדי גלולים עושין אינן אלא להתייהר כו’:
    Tanya perek1

    I love pointing out to people how their hashkofos are diametrically opposed to what it says in seforim hakedoshim.

    #2134293
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Menachem, i disagree. Being moser nefesh for one’s country in itself isn’t heroic or praiseworthy. If a black man sacrifices for klal yisroel because he thinks he’s Jewish(like kanye west, black hebrews), is he sacrificing for the real klal yisroel, or just to his fake contrived fairy tale?

    Same with a totally frei jew – they have absolutely no idea what a Jew is; to them it’s no different than an italian, or spanish person championing spanish and italian causes.

    #2134380
    akuperma
    Participant

    MenhemShmei: then almost everyone in the world (or at least places settled by Europeans or Middle Easterners) is a safek Jews. One Jew going off the derekh (or kidnapped) a few thousand years ago has lots of descendants, none of whom have any idea they are related to us.

    Of course, one could argue, that everyone created in the image of HaShem is special, and according to Humash, everyone in the world was a relatively close cousin of Avraham Aveinu (remember that at least one of Noah’s kids was still alive at the time). But that sort of argument is very annoying to anyone who wants to feel that he is “special”, and being in Ha-Shem’s image and related to Avraham Aveinu is not special enough for him (and is very anti-racist and is total heresy to the scientific community).

    #2134393
    Lemayseh
    Participant

    The work Tanya of the first Chabad Rebbe may be the bible of Lubavitch, but it is not considered as such by all Jews. Some things in Tanya are disputed. It is a controversial work.

    #2134513
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Look at the Sefer Habris who explains that there are 25 levels of neshama. נפש, רוח, נשמה, חיה, יחידה within each there are 5 levels such as נפש שבנפש, רוח שבנפש וכו. Each has a maximum strength. Once we arrive to the highest level of the current neshama by defeating the yetzer hara, the yetzer hara cannot be stronger but it wants to be. So Hashem gives the person a higher level of neshama. So according to this, being a tzadik or a beneni is relative to one’s neshama. It is the maximum or middle for the current level of the neshama.

    #2138318
    RebYid613
    Participant

    What’s the pasuk in the song?

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