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Can someone plz explain why we continually see hydroxychloroquine studies being performed in a way designed to fail?? And why doctors who champion hydroxychloroquines use are censored and banned from social media platforms?? They say very clearly hydroxychloroquine needs to be given EARLY, with, ZINC, in LOW DOSE….yet all studies that are supposed to prove hydroxychloroquine ineffective don’t REMOTELY RESEMBLE THIS PROTOCOL!! What is really going on?? Charlie, you are the expert with your name on 3784 scientific papers, can you enlighten us all??
I don’t understand what you need explained. HCQ+Zinc has been shows to have a mild positive effect in several studies that gave it to COVID asymptomatic patients. So what? I believe the most optimistic study only showed that it saved the life of one person out of twenty.
I’m not a doctor but if there’s something you don’t understand I’ll try and help.
The best hishtadlus “medicine” right now is to continue to wear masks and social distance so if we have COVID without knowing it, we don’t accidentally pass it on to someone else.
- Does zinc supplementation enhance the clinical efficacy of chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine to win today’s battle against COVID-19? <i>R. Derwanda and M. Scholzb</i>
- Hydroxychloroquine and Zinc With Either Azithromycin or Doxycycline for Treatment of COVID-19 in Outpatient Setting <i>Avni Thakore </i>
- A Study of Hydroxychloroquine and Zinc in the Prevention of COVID-19 Infection in Military Healthcare Workers (COVID-Milit) <i> Military Hospital of Tunis </i>
You don’t catch the disease => you won’t need any medication, you will stay healthy, and you will not be responsible for infecting others.
@torahvaluesoverparty That’s interesting that the WHO says lockdowns don’t work. I can’t seem to find anything about it online first hand, can you write a bit more about it? Does the CDC agree?
I’m not sure what you mean by “hardly science to that”. I’ve seen numerous reports that COVID-19 positive people who wear masks are far less likely to spread the disease. And more studies that show how communities where most people are masked and socially distant have almost no internal disease transmission.
Again, I’m not a doctor but I’ll try and explain as best as I can. The first study I mentioned is the clearest. Two doctors read about how HCQ+Zinc was being used to treat mild symptoms in outpatient settings in NY, France, and China so they decided to test the hypothesis. They gave the drug cocktail to a group of people who were showing mild COVID-19 symptoms and a placebo to another group with similar symptoms. The results were that of those who took the HCQ+Zinc slightly less ended up dead or in the hospital.
This is important in two ways. One is that HCQ+Zinc can be added to the list of potential drugs, like Remedisvir and Regeneron, that help with COVID-19. Another is that it illustrates that it’s still not a miracle drug. It only helps with COVID, and certainly doesn’t cure it outright.
As far as I can tell, the idea that it’s being “repressed” in the media is anti-Semitic fake. All double blind peer review published studies are out there and being discussed. Unfortunately, the studies aren’t as optimistic as the original experiments.
The statistics for all the drugs so far suggest that many are effective in some situations, but none are a “cure” (i.e. nothing is to the virus, what antibiotics are for germs). If you are infected with Covid19, the best hope is to daven that you are in the 95% who either don’t notice, or can get by with non-prescription medicines and chicken soup. Remember that a coronavirus is more or less a “cold” (except one that are rare occasions makes you dangerously ill), and no one has ever “found a cure for the common cold”.
The reason the studies failed was because they gave very high doses of HCQ to people who were already very sick. HCQ cannot heal COVID, together with Zinc it can only prevent the virus from replicating at a high rate, preventing the cytokine storm that was responsible for overwhelming the body and causing ventilation (which sometimes did more harm than good). The added Azithromycin was to prevent a secondary lung infection (bronchitis/pneumonia) from developing due to the damage already inflicted by COVID. There is ample evidence that very early treatment with this protocol could have prevented many deaths. Anyone who has traveled to Africa has already taken HCQ as a precaution against malaria – it’s even sold over the counter in many countries.
There will always be anecdotal information about a certain drug used off-label having shown benefits to a limited cohort under a defined set of circumstances. That is the case with HCQ and several other drugs used to treat Covid 19 patients, both prohylatically, after exposure and after symptomatic onset. However, the advocates of these drugs have yet to organize and/or present any double blind, peer-reviewed studies affirming in these results more broadly in larger scale tests. Until they do so, doctors are free to use these drugs in individual cases if they believe they will be effective for treating their patients but there is ZERO basis to recommend them to the general population as an “approved” therapy.
@kollelman That’s a good point you bring up. Not all the studies researched the drug in the way that it was originally experimented with. That’s why I picked those studies in particular, they tried to mimic the results by giving the drugs in similar doses to people who weren’t seriously ill. Unfortunately, the results were only marginally effective.
When Trump had COVID-19 the doctors did not give him HCQ + Zinc.
First off, I don’t think any tried and tested COVID-19 treatments are being suppressed. I do think that too many people believe there is a miracle cure out there and use it as an excuse to ignore restrictions, and go to large crowded simchas and minyanim without masks. Because of that, there is some suppression going on regarding unsavory people who are promoting various forms of magic which is extremely dangerous as it leads to very unsafe behavior.
Sorry about not giving you the details, it’s hard to parse them from just reading the study. You can google it yourself, I think everything you want to know is there. The study was trying to mimic the circumstances of those doctors who claimed high “cure” rates for COVID-19 so they don’t contain the flaws you say exist in other studies.
I mentioned anti-Semitism because I did a bit of searching and found that a lot of the stories floating around WhatsApp and Facebook claiming that HCQ studies have been repressed originate from anti-Semitic social media accounts and websites. It just goes to show you can’t trust everything you read online.
The reason I’m focused on a double blind RCT study is because it’s the only way to ensure that HCQ+Zinc is effective. COVID-19 effects so many different people so differently. If a few doctors say “I treated a lot of people with this concoction and only one person died” that’s pretty much a meaningless statement. What we need is a full blown study that can show that so few deaths and hospitalizations will happen with only the drugs being given, and it’s much worse when the drugs are not given. The studies I listed are basically that and they show that HCQ+Zinc does have some effect, but it’s far from a miracle drug.
HCQ is a miracle drug. It only works on Republicans.
There is no “miracle drug” for Covid 19 yet and may not be for some time. The Trumpkopf mindlessly ranted about a “cure” where he repeatedly used the name of the pharmaceutical company as the name of the drug that he gad been given. I expect the more likely scenario will be some “cocktail” of drugs administered based on the patient’s circumstances and availability at a point in time.
GH @There is no “miracle drug” for Covid 19 yet
There are reports of increasing improvements in quality of care – better positioning on the patients, better steroid use, etc. Each of the items may not be a miracle cure, but multiple 10% improvements add up. This is a known trend on all industries – there are rare inventions combined with multi-year small improvements that add up to significant progress.
2nd reported reason for better outcomes – people get to the hospital earlier due to awareness and with less initial viral load due to social distancing/masking.
Always Ask: You are correct on each point. Thats why the death rate is down while the number of cases is rising. Even collectively, what you describe is not a “miracle cure” and sadly, there are still too many cases of otherwise healthy individuals with no comorbidities and who are hospitalized immediately upon symptomatic onset who fail to respond to any of these therapeutics. Hopefully, the vaccines nearing approval (and assuming public acceptance) in combination with new drugs will collectively work to further reduce infection and mortality rates and mitigate long-term problems reported by those who recover.
GH,
Please stop writing “Trumpkopf”.
It makes you sound stupid.Do you guys deliberately catch bacterial infections since antibiotics exist?
TorahValues: I’ll stipulate to not being the smartest person in the CR BUT there still is currently no “miracle cure” , or for that matter, no “cure”…just several very promising therapies that hopefully will be shown to have a high degree of efficacy across a wide range of of patients.
MDG: I’ll immediately begin using his real name the first time he goes an entire day w/o referring to the Democratic nominee as “Crazy Joe” and finding other demeaning names for anyone he disagrees with. He warrants exactly the same level of respect he shows to others.TVOP -“Why then have so many Democrat states restrict its use”
That’s simple. They’ll do anything to make Trump look Bad. He promoted it at the beginning.
Ya’see – these DemonCrats don’t care about Life – that’s why they push Abortions.
Maybe they should work on abstinence for Non-married people?!?Btw, HCQ works as a Zinc ionsphore. There are few others.
But main ingredient is Zinc (it blocks Virus replication).
I guess the scientists that post here skipped the Lecture on Viruses.
Or they’re being Political DEMANDING RCT’s!In regard to vaccines they are not being tested for preventing infection or transmission. They are only being tested to see if they less moderate or minor symptoms in those who get the infection.
Please, we don’t approve external links.
Vaccine Trials ‘Can’t Detect’ Virus Risk Reduction: Expert
Excerpts:
Writing in the BMJ medical journal, associate editor Peter Doshi warned that not even phase 3 trials under way in the race for a vaccine can prove their product will prevent people contracting COVID-19.
In a sobering essay, Doshi said those hoping for a breakthrough to end the pandemic would be disappointed, with some vaccines likely to reduce the risk of infection by only 30 percent.
“None of the trials currently under way are designed to detect a reduction in any serious outcome such as hospital admissions, use of intensive care, or deaths,” he wrote.
“Nor are the vaccines being studied to determine whether they can interrupt transmission of the virus.”
… Doshi, assistant professor of pharmaceutical health services research at the University of Maryland School of Pharmacy, said that even the most advanced trials are evaluating mild rather than severe disease.
And few if any current trials are designed to find out whether there is a benefit among the elderly, a key at-risk constituency.
Without enrolling frail and elderly volunteers in trials in sufficient numbers, Doshi said “there can be little basis for assuming any benefit against hospitalization or mortality.”
He added that children, immunocompromised people and pregnant women had largely been excluded from trials, making it unlikely that the experiments will address key gaps in our understanding of how Covid-19 develops differently among individuals.Link removed
These Coronavirus Trials Don’t Answer the One Question We Need to Know
We may not find out whether the vaccines prevent moderate or severe cases of Covid-19.
According to the protocols for their studies, which they released late last week, a vaccine could meet the companies’ benchmark for success if it lowered the risk of mild Covid-19, but was never shown to reduce moderate or severe forms of the disease, or the risk of hospitalization, admissions to the intensive care unit or death.Link removed
Covid-19 Vaccine Protocols Reveal That Trials Are Designed To Succeed
By William Haseltine (Haseltine was a professor at Harvard Medical School where he founded two research departments on cancer and HIV/AIDS)
Excerpts:
Prevention of infection is not a criterion for success for any of these vaccines. In fact, their endpoints all require confirmed infections and all those they will include in the analysis for success, the only difference being the severity of symptoms between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Measuring differences amongst only those infected by SARS-CoV-2 underscores the implicit conclusion that the vaccines are not expected to prevent infection, only modify symptoms of those infected….
We all expect an effective vaccine to prevent serious illness if infected. Three of the vaccine protocols—Moderna, Pfizer, and AstraZeneca—do not require that their vaccine prevent serious disease only that they prevent moderate symptoms which may be as mild as cough, or headache….
These protocols do not emphasize the most important ramifications of Covid-19 that people are most interested in preventing: overall infection, hospitalization, and death. It boggles the mind and defies common sense that the National Institute of Health, the Center for Disease Control, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, and the rest would consider the approval of a vaccine that would be distributed to hundreds of millions on such slender threads of success.GH,
It’s about you showing yourself respect.
@geteducated, trials are designed to achieve a conclusion whether they are safe and have a reasonable chance to be effective – and do it very quickly. Waiting until knowing all answers will take several years. Please give NIH, CDC, Persident’s op Warp Speed recognition for changing the protocols.
30% is not “nothing”, and while people will be vaccinated, we will find out more. I am even wondering whether Chinese & Russians are doing the right things vaccinating 3rd world at some, probably not high, risk (admittedly, not for themselves)
@torahvaluesoverparty The main study I was referencing is available on PubMed through the website of the NIH. Google the author’s names and nothing else and you should find it. A very similar study is also available on the Henry Ford Institute’s website.
how do you explain the media’s inability to point out obvious flaws in the studies discrediting HQC?
You know what, you’re somewhat right. There is a bit of suppression going on. I believe that it’s all part of the massive effort media companies are doing to try and stop misinformation. There is a ton of HCQ+Zinc misinformation out there with people calling it a miracle drug and stuff, so the media is suppressing it and only focusing on studies that show its ineffectiveness.
You know what? I agree with them. To extend your plane moshul, if someone picked up a loudspeaker and started talking about how it’s OK to take a hammer to the plane’s innards because there are enough parachutes for everyone, no one would argue against taking the megaphone away.
I can’t speak for the cancer medicines you mentioned, but for HCQ+Zinc there’s really only anecdotal evidence that it’s more than moderately effective. There were a few doctors back in March and April that treated a lot of people with this regimen, but they were working without hard data as to who had the virus and who didn’t and they didn’t publish the breakdown on exactly how many people were ill. These things are absolutely necessary to prove the effectiveness of a drug. You can’t just say “Well it may work, so let’s just give it to everyone”.
MDG: I understand your perspective but disagree. I cannot bring myself to show ANY respect for this incumbent, totally separate and apart from the institution of the Presidency.
Read the endorsement of Biden in the Manchester Union Leader and why they won’t support a Republican candidate for president for the first time in over 100 years. This is probably the most solid bedrock Republican newspaper in the U.S. and has taken down many Democratic candidates over the past several decades but couldn’t find any redeeming values in supporting the incumbent for reelection.
Get Educated – YOU NEED TO GET EDUCATED!
The purpose of a vaccine is to create a situation that the body reacts to the Antigen.
Once it does – the Body does the Rest!GH,
Thank you for showing respect (especially to yourrself and us) and saying “incumbent” even if you don’t want to say his name.The way this world works is that the same twisted minds who are twisted enough to have an agenda, will accordingly twist studies to suit their agenda’s. Insiders know that for the longest time, medical journals have published falsified studies.
And its not just HCQ, there’s been various other therapies proven effective which have been shoved under the rug.
And not just with Covid, but with so much more. Why just limit it to Covid? There have been all sorts of chronic illnesses which have been neglected for so many years. Did any of you even bother to give those illnesses consideration? There has been a world of Major Pain out there, because it is an olam hasheker. So given that it’s an olam hasheker, why are you suddenly so surprised?
Publicity is not what renders something truthful. Rather, the Whole Truth is what gives the truthful picture. And insofar as Covid, Rabbi Yitzchok Dovid Smith (who’s an attorney who litigated against euthanasia, and also has a background in infectious disease from UC Berkeley) says rabbonim and individuals need to educate themselves as to the “metzius hadavar”.
Here’s a summarized beginning excerpt of R’Smith, Esq.:
There is no place in Torah for a Jewish community to be governed by a committee of medical doctors. The concept of a doctor in Torah, and the permission to heal, is based on a personal relationship between a doctor and an individual patient where the doctor is both an expert in a disease and knows the patient personally. However, a doctor cannot make decrees for a community of individuals that he has never met.
The world is going through the pangs of the establishment of public health supremacy which plans on ignoring all other considerations, including Torah. Public health is NOT ‘refuah’ in Torah. It’s NOT a substitute for Torah.
In Round One of the Public Health decrees, the Rabbonim were overwhelmed with reports of ventilator shortages and deaths. They were not given proper access to evaluate the metzius hadevorim and innocently made decisions. Some background: In 1933 the idea of lives unworthy of life was introduced by the Nazi’s to justify euthanasia of the elderly, ill and disabled, including disabled children – with the participation of hundreds of asylum directors, pediatricians, psychiatrists, family doctors, and nurses. Their campaign did not at first target Jews – it targeted Germans. Only later in 1941 was their program expanded to what’s now known as the Holocaust. In the death camps there were selections between essential and non-essential people, those who could work and those who could not.
On Kristelnacht, only the Jewish businesses were shuttered, but in this year nearly all businesses have been closed, something unheard of in the history of the world, where it has now become illegal for many to make a living. That was followed by actual burnings in many places. The threatened ventilator shortages never happened, but the spectre of not enough hospital equipment is now being used by public health policy groups to push the rationing so-called ‘scarce’ health care. Fear of scarcity is a tactic to increase control of health care. Such as who has access to what care, and which people are no longer worth their efforts. Parents of disabled children and children of aging parents, should be concerned more about that, than corona virus.
Rabbonim, there has now been plenty of time to become knowledgeable. A Rov must educate himself in the metzius hadeovrim. Just as a Rov cannot make a ruling in industrial kashrus without understanding modern food production, so too a Rov cannot approve doctors who have been influenced in universities to push the public health program. A Rov must research and understand the cruel history of public health and its methods and goals. Every man and woman needs to educate themselves to evaluate what they are being told. People are misled into thinking that ‘novel’ means new and unknown, which only sows fear, and causes people to accept any decree so that they can be saved. I am prepared to make myself available to the community to present the tools needed to make educated evaluations.
[For examples of tricks they’ve used]:
(1) was never a death rate of 3.4% of the FULL population. Those numbers were
created by testing only a small group – the sick & dying – then claiming that that would apply to
the world. This is not science and is entirely dishonest.
(2) Government officials admitted that Covid-19 deaths include anyone testing positive, even when not experiencing symptoms.
(3) People who test negative are classified as Covid-19 deaths due to mere “suspicion”.
(4) In some states positive antibody tests are being recorded as “new cases” of COVID-19 for people who were infected months ago.We all know people who died over the last few months. Most of the deaths were unnecessary. I also know people who did not have coronavirus who were publicized in the frum websites as having died from coronavirus. The early symptoms of a coronavirus infection are similar to panic attacks. Our Rabbonim and elderly saw their minyonim
destroyed before their eyes, were panicked by seasonal symptoms, rushed to hospitals, isolated, denied visitors, denied second opinions, told they had a disease with no cure, put on ventilators which hastened their death and then left to die without fluids or food, or actively killed with morphine drips. [Note that similarly] starvation diets and medicine overdoses were used in Nazi hospitals to get around the public’s opposition to direct euthanasia programs.In my own research, I have discovered the horror stories of the conditions of the bodies reaching the chevra kadishas and heard first hand testimony from true front line doctors (not oncologists, radiologists and other specialists who report the ‘swooping’ of hospice care into the rooms of the COVID-19 patients in New Jersey urging morphine drips. I
have heard first-hand accounts of patients not being given fluids because the doctors considered the patients ‘dead’ while they were still breathing. Aleihem Hashalom is not the way to refer to these victims but rather Hashem Yikum Damam.(There’s more)
(Therve’s more)…
Judy. We can’t wait for installment 2 of Bubba Meiesas from Yenna Velt. Very entertaining.
YwnJudy – What’s your point?
Before Covid – do you think e/o got good care?
I’ve seen Unnessary deaths from Medical Personnel before Covid came along from people with Yamulkahs on their head.
When there is a pandemic, these Bad Professionals (Jew or Not) will increase the Death Rate 10-fold!JacobLev, do you really think that POTUS would be so dumb as to entrust his life solely to Public Health? Do you really believe everything which the media (both right and left) dole out? There’s a lot of decoys put into play. What i mean, is a cascade of diversionary static used as a cover-up. Whatever the exact term is.
Just because his doctor said remdesivir (or whatever) has been doing the trick, how do you know that’s not a cover for HCQ/zinc, or alternatively, “redundant” to HCQ/zinc?
As much as this may leave a sour taste in the mouths of many YWN members, there are still many frum people who have him constantly in their tefillos, just as they did long ago for the Russian Czar. The Torah says you’re supposed to be mispallel for shlemus of malchus, which is why i can’t fathom how YWN members openly oppose him.
You may cite his disloyalty to Kurds, and his neglect of Pollard.
Well that’s true. And that’s probably why he’s been made to suffer such persecution himself. (Actually the same demons who’ve persecuted him thus far, will persecute all of us if either they win OR he wins. It’s a lose/lose situation and only a miracle can save us.Also, to all Never-Trumper’s i happen to know a frum guy who has =exactly= Trump’s personality and lack of middos. (Similar looks too) Yet so many of you are probably quick to forgive the Trump carbon-copies in your midst, but not the guy himself. Why? Because he’s a “goy” and the chutzpiniak isn’t? But it should be “punkt farkert” – better middos should be expected from acheinu!
My point is that I assure you that rabbi/doctor/esquire Smith can run rings around you about this topic any time (given that he’s coming from a position of experience). But that’s IF he has time to spare and ONLY supposing that you debate him using logic, as i doubt he’d dignify leitzunus with a response.
I don’t know who Rabbi Doctor Smith is but I have a lot of kushyos on what you claim he said. I don’t believe he’s singing the same tune these days now that we know more about COVID-19.
For one, it’s not the death rate that’s the issue (although it is a huge issue), it’s the infection rate. On Rosh Hashanna an infected bachur walked into a Yeshiva of 300 talmidim. By Yom Kippur, nearly 3/4 of the talmidim were testing positive and several Rebbeim were hospitalized. So saying “only” one out of 1000 die is incredibly dishonest considering that it’s very easy for 1000 people to catch the virus.
Is that a documented occurance that actually happened as you presented it or something that might probably have happened?
This thread has gone off the rails……see you on November 4th when the tin foil MAGA hats (and a few lonely COVID masks) are lying forlornly on the floor of several suddenly quiety ballrooms booked for Trumpopf victory parties and of rationality returns.
Meanwhile, your Yittzy Smith “expert” will still be pontificating as to why he was right and all the other public health experts were wrong@syag-lchochma I don’t want to name the Yeshiva, but it really and truly happened and it was absolutely terrifying. They took precautions to try and keep everyone from leaving and guests from coming in with the understanding that they could not make all the boys social distance and wear masks all the time (dining room, dorms, etc.). But unfortunately there were a few “leaks”. One of those leaks was a guy who went home on Friday afternoon before Rosh Hashono, then one of his parents felt sick over Shabbos and a few days later so did he. They sent him home immediately but almost right away his roomates and chavrusas tested positive. After a few days there were people falling ill in the Yeshiva, by Yom Kippur they were forced into full lockdown and had a special run for tests which was 75% positive. By the time Succos rolled around, people were already saying tehillim for one Rebbi, and at least two other Rebbeim were hospitalized with less severe symptoms. Even as late as yesterday, there was a tehillim call for the Mashkiach’s wife who has been in serious condition for weeks.
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