Is Israel part of galus?

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  • #1752923

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Avi- you can’t just make up random kal vchomers.

    #1752924

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Avi,

    Even if you are correct that doesn’t mean that a Jew will be safe from antisemitism if he moves to Israel any more than if he moves to kiryas Yoel

    I’m trying to say there’s no cure for antisemitism until moshiach comes (even if we all moved to Israel)

    #1752926

    uknowwhatimsayin
    Participant

    Avi k,
    I don’t necessarily agree with CA, but is it possible that coffee addict was referring to the שנאה from the גוים?
    That would explain why he doesn’t understand the claim that moving to Israel is a safer option…
    I’m not sure that claiming that Israel isn’t a safe place is necessary not being דן the עם or the current state of the עם non favorably.

    #1752929

    uknowwhatimsayin
    Participant

    CA, {through the way I understood your question}
    In regard to your question, I feel that it is true that there are dangers wherever you are (חו״ל and א״י).
    However, I do believe that ה׳ wants us to be in א״י. Therefore through the lense of yidishkiet, it should be better to live in א״י.
    As for the utopia thing, let me give you an example.
    Picture this scenario:
    A man is in his high 30s and still isn’t married. He is waiting and waiting and still can’t seem to find a Shidduch. After a while, he finally finds the right girl that he has been waiting for all these years.
    As the wedding is approaching, the hall calls them up to tell them that they had to cancel on them—-they are devastated and look for another hall. More and more problems keep them from getting married.
    While they just can’t wait anymore, they suddenly find an opening in a hall and grab it.
    This hall happens to have some issues ( ie. food isn’t as good, band isn’t as geshmak etc…).
    Do you think that while they are relieved to have saved their wedding day they will start complaining about the inconveniences? No. They are so happy to finally have a place and have the ability to get married.

    While you may be correct that at the moment א״י isn’t a utopian society, because of א״יs religious value found in the תורה, both שבכתב and שבעל פה, the people who have a deep love א״י and deeply wish to be מקיים the מצוה, will ignore these inconveniences ( whether it be about the politics or dangers).
    What may look to you as a massive downside will not look as bad to them at all.

    Also, I believe that ה׳ protects those who live in Israel, as if it weren’t for ה׳, the state would’ve never been able to be established. The ניסים you hear about all the time, and the constant נס that no other of all the nations that surround Israel have destroyed it seems to make that apparent to me.

    Let me know what you think

    #1753066

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “However, I do believe that ה׳ wants us to be in א״י.”

    Some people might feel that Hashem wants us to live outside of Eretz Yisrael until משיח comes

    Personally though my name isn’t בלעם and I don’t think your name is either

    #1753073

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Zionist State isn’t a Jewish state.

    #1753097

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Of course we’re still in galus until Moshaich comes. However, morally, you have no right to act like it “kumtz to dir” in America, as it isn’t a Jewish country. But, in Israel, where everyone are Jews and its a Jewish country, you can act like you’re in the majority – because you are. There’s no inyan of “shtelling tzu” to keep the peace in Israel, unlike in America.

    #1753129

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Yeshivish,

    Come again?

    #1753179

    uknowwhatimsayin
    Participant

    CA,
    Gut vuch
    Firstly, are you even if that opinion?
    If you are, why would you phrase your original question the way you did. You should’ve asked “why do people say we should move to Israel when we shouldn’t go until משיח.
    Therefore I’m hesitant to think that you take that גמרא as הלכה למעשה. (A nice amount of the גדולים that i assume you respect live there…).
    That Gemara of ג׳ שבועות is אגדה and was written by ר׳ זירא who he himself moved to א״י after saying that.

    Also, can you explain your בלעם line?
    Not sure I was זוכה to understand

    #1753311

    Avi K
    Participant

    Uknowwhatimsayin, you apparently are new here so I will repost my proof the the Three Oaths are a halachic non-starter.

    1. The pasukim cited refer the the kelei hamikdash, not the people.
    2. They are aggadata. Aggadata cannot be understood literally (Rambam, Intro. to Perek Chelek).
    3. They are not brought down in any of the codes.
    4. According to Rav Chaim Vital they were only for 1,000 years (Intro. to Sefer Etz Chaim 8).
    5. According to Rav Meir Simcha the San Remo conference repealed them as the other nations agreed to establish a Jewish state in what was called the province of Palestine (which, BTW, included what is now Jordan).
    6. According to Rav Soloveitchik (Kol Dodi Dofek) Hashem has called.
    7. The other nations violated their oath not to persecute us too much on several occasions (Crusades, Chmelnitsky massacres, pogroms, Petlura massacres, Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off (Sotah 10a with Rashi d”h huchal shevuato shel Avimelech and Shulchan Aruch YD 236,6).

    #1753312

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Uknow,

    Gut voch,

    I’ll answer your last part first

    “Also, can you explain your בלעם line?
    Not sure I was זוכה to understand”

    Billam said he was יודע דעת עליון (he knew what Hashem was thinking) so I don’t know what is correct

    And this is how I’m answering your first question

    All I know is what my rebbe tells me and both my Rosh hayeshiva and the Rav of my shul left eretz yisrael and live in the states so it doesn’t seem like there’s a חיוב to move to Israel, and just like there are countless gedolim that live in the states

    #1753373

    uknowwhatimsayin
    Participant

    Avi k,
    Thanks for the list! Good stuff!

    CA,
    Isnt there is a difference between a מצוה and a חיוב.
    While there may be a מצוה if ישוב הארץ, it doesn’t make it a chiyuv.
    What I was saying is that because it’s brought down as a מצוה by the רמב״ן and is certainly of religious value according to the רמב״ם I would assume that is ideally what ה׳ would want someone to do. (ה׳ wants people to do the מצות….)
    (If it’s a proper עשה and a person CAN do it and they choose not to —-may fall under the category of ביטול עשה).
    (There are plenty of people that can’t live in א״י for many reasons ie. financially….)

    #1753477

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Uknow,

    Correct,
    I’m not saying that one shouldn’t live in Israel

    I’m saying the opposite!

    Posters comment whenever there is an antisemitic attack “move to Israel!” Making it like it’s the safest place which isn’t exactly true and there are countless other reasons why a person has to stay in חוץ לארץ which you agree to!

    #1753527

    Avi K
    Participant

    CA, we do not pasken from a maaseh rav. You do not know why they left. Rambam gives four heterim (HIlchot Melachim 4:9). As for the gedolim who never lived here, they have a different cheshbon. because of their communal duties.

    Uknowwhatimsayin, you are correct but a person must also ask if he really needs to maintain a high life-style. I heard of someone who went back (decades ago) because at the time Israel did not have cream cheese! In addition one must take into consideration the lower costs here, particularly in education.

    #1753583

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “As for the gedolim who never lived here, they have a different cheshbon. because of their communal duties.“

    Avi,

    So they’re making themselves lose out for a bunch of רשעים that don’t want to move? Better yet have them pasken to their community that they should move

    And your reply to uknow implies that everyone in chutz l’arertz is rich, and can make it in Israel

    You’re delusional (I guess that’s why all the meshulachim go there, right?)

    #1753581

    Joseph
    Participant

    “As for the gedolim who never lived here, they have a different cheshbon. because of their communal duties.”

    Those Gedolim never told their kehilos and adherents to move to Eretz Yisroel.

    #1753601

    manitou
    Participant

    Joseph
    The ohr hachaim in parshas Behar says that the Gedolei Yisroel who don’t encourage Aliya are Asidin litein es Hadin.

    #1753632

    Joseph
    Participant

    Manitou: That’s one out of hundreds or thousands over 2,000 years.

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