Is Israel part of galus?

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  • #1742641

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Why do posters specifically and Israelis in general think that Israel isn’t a part of galus?

    Case in point the Chabad family that wants to homeschool one poster said

    “This is what golis is all about. You made your השתדלות now hashem wants you to leave.
    Pack your bags and leave while you still can. בטל רצונך מפני רצונו”

    Maybe I should say that about the people who don’t want to be a part of the draft

    #1742801

    Joseph
    Participant

    Of course it is. Only Zionists think the galus ended in their State of Israel.

    #1742800

    Avi K
    Participant

    Israel is by definition not part of the galut. Of course, there are some people whose souls are in galut even though their bodies are in Israel. Those who do not want to be part of the IDF, for example. If they get bad enough the Land expels them.

    #1742989

    reform rabbi
    Participant

    Galus Yavan was in Israel with the Bais Hamikdash built. So you see it is possible to be in Israel and Galus simultaneously.

    #1743076

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Excellent point reform rabbi

    So what defines galus?

    #1743075

    manitou
    Participant

    Reform rabbi
    Galus yavan was only until the yidden gained independence/sovereignty with the Chanukah story. That is why there was no commemoration for the beginning of bayis sheini since there was no independence.

    Obviously living in Israel under Jewish rule is not galus.

    #1743065

    Yiddishekup
    Participant

    to answer the question – Galus is still going on until mashiach comes. When the leader of israel (I davka didnt say eretz yisroel) walks around without a hat on, let alone a yarmulke, dead giveaway, we’re in Galus.

    #1743063

    Yiddishekup
    Participant

    Avi. K I think you had a typo
    “there are some people whose souls are in galut”
    galut? galuttttt?
    Nah Avi K., you mustve had a typo bec. unless you read the question wrong where its correctly spelled galus with an ‘s’ you had to have had a typo. The only minor excuse you could have is if you’re a sphardi

    #1743088

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Manitou,

    So if I immigrated to Israel I experienced geulah without moshiach? Why are we davening for moshiach just daven that we should win the lottery so we could move to israel

    #1743089

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The dati leumi are essentially a type of meshichist (no relation to the Chabad type). I’m not sure they would approve of that title, but it’s works for ease of use.

    Avi has explained it before. The two types of moshiach, Rav Kook and 1948 stuff being the first, etc. I’m not endorsing it, but if the question is how they can say it’s not galus when moshiach hasn’t come, you can ask directly/respectfully and Avi K will tell you the official answer.

    #1743090

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Of course the galus exists in Israel On the contrary, over there the galus is deeper and darker, because one is in the place where the geulah should be visible, and yet it’s not. To stand at the kosel and know that the so-called “Israeli” government does not have the power to rebuild the beis hamikdosh or even to start korbanos even if it wanted to — and even worse that it doesn’t even want to! — what darker galus could there be? That it openly declares that it is not and will never be a state of halacha, what bitterer galus could there be?

    #1743092

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See Yechaveh Daas 1:43 about saying Nachem, that certainly we are still in galus.

    #1743093

    samthenylic
    Participant

    Israel is the EPITOME OF GALUS. If the “leader” of Israel can say “WE are strong,…We will react harshly to any aggression” WITHOUT mentioning HASHEM in any way (not to say anything about the anti-charedi stance), then we are in a GALUS CHOSHECH indeed!

    #1743091

    too geshmak
    Participant

    I read a really interesting explanation of this topic in the name of Reb Mottel Pegrimansky, one of the great thinkers and baalei musser of pre and post war Europe. He asks, why is there no reference to the establishment of a Jewish state, before moshiach comes, anywhere in tanach, chazal, the zohar or similar places where we find descriptions of moshiach’s arrival. You would think something so momentous would be mentioned if it was part of the geulah OR if it was part of the pre messianic suffering, both of which are described in great detail. His answer is that the state must simply not be part of either one. Rather it is a nisayon, can we stay true to the Torah in a Jewish state. It’s not mentioned because by definition a nisayon cant be revealed ahead of time. However before we can get to the ikvusa d’moshichusa, we need to go thorough many nisyonos and Israel is one of them.

    #1743104

    samthenylic
    Participant

    This TOO GESHMAK post really hit it on the head!! The gedolim of yesteryear, (Munkacs, Belz, Satmar, all of gedolei Europe) said this Re; Zionism, and experience has shown them to be right! After Haskala, this is the biggest anti-religious Jewish movement there is!

    #1743111

    manitou
    Participant

    Munkacs, Belz, Satmar, all of gedolei Europe were right???
    Tragically they were so wrong as Harav teichtal z”l who was one of them and was killed in the holocaust write about in his Sefer.
    Unfortunately people don’t learn Navi so they can say such ignorant statements about kibutz galuyos as a bigger galus than ever.
    We heard all kinds of predictions from gedolim that the state won’t last fifty years etc. meanwhile it is a thriving success in every metric including ruchniyus as shown in so many studies.

    #1743113

    manitou
    Participant

    Coffee addict
    We are davening for the completion of the geula
    Sanhedrin, Bais Hamikdosh, malchus Bais Dovid, nevuah etc. but some of the most significant steps have occurred. We are deep in kibutz galuyos, political independence, land giving fruit bayin yafeh, the revival of lashon Hakodesh….

    #1743114

    manitou
    Participant

    Too geshmak
    No reference to establishment of a Jewish state before mashiach? How about Megillah daf 17b on the bottom and the yerushalmi in maseches maaser sheini for starters?

    #1743207

    rational
    Participant

    One can choose to view the establishment of a Jewish State as a positive and desirable expression of God’s will to help His people return to their Homeland. It is a gift to embrace and cherish. The Mechanism and Process that He used to enact this return to Eretz Hakodesh and what comes next was and is for Him to decide. I choose this view.

    Alternatively, one can view the establishment of the Jewish State as a condemnation or punishment by God. He loosened the restraints of the Sitra Achra, the cosmic force of evil, as a result of our betrayal of Him. Who betrayed Him? The Enlightened, the Reformists, the Zionists, the Yiddishists, the Communists, and more. We are destined to suffer from this terrible and painful long-lasting debacle until the Moshiach reveals himself, bem’herah v’yameinu.

    Unless of course we win the Yeshiva Lottery and get two free tickets on United (El-Al? shumu shamayim) to enjoy all the beautiful and holy (sic) sites in Palestine, maybe even visit our nephew in Brisk. Then we just ignore those evil forces and have a great time at Ein Gedi and the Banyas. And once we’re here, we’ll chap some Geulah (ironic name, no?) chulent on Thursday night and grab a black & white at the Brooklyn Bakery. Ahh, the pleasures of pure golus. A m’chayeh. Don’t miss the Koisel Tunnels.

    #1743193

    Avi K
    Participant

    Galut (exile) is the situation of living outside of one’s land. Thus, by definition a Jew living in Eretz Yisrael is not in galut, at least not physically. Those chareidim and leftists who do not understand the meaning of having a state are in spiritual galut. There are, however, level of geula as the Yerushalmi (Berachot 1:1) states. First we have to have a king (or any leader elected by the people as stated by Rav Kook in Mishpatei Cohen 144 and see also He’emek Devar on Devarim 17:14). Then he has to wipe out Amalek (according to Rav Chaim Soloveichik antisemitism) and then he has to build the Beit haMikdash (Rambam, Hilchot Melachim 1:1).

    #1743194

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Manitou, you have seriously misread the gemara. It doesn’t say that בן דוד בא after J’m is built. It says דוד בא. First בן דוד has to come, because nothing can happen without him. Only then will he fight Hashem’s wars and win, return the exiles, reestablish the courts, rebuild Y’m, and then the House of David will be re-established, which is דוד בא.

    #1743220

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Galut (exile) is the situation of living outside of one’s land. “

    So according to avi k גלות יון wasn’t galus and yidden have been Israel for thousands of years so I guess thereabouts galus edom (just btw during פרס ומדי there wasn’t 70 years of galus for those people that went back during דריוש the first

    #1743279

    manitou
    Participant

    Milhouse
    Read the Gemara again with Rashi as it says clearly that we will come to the Bais Hamikdosh and daven for moshiach.

    Coffee addict
    The reason it was galus yavan is because eretz yisroel was under Greek rule, just as Dovid hamelech said that he was sent into exile when he went to the plishtim even though Gaza is clearly a chelek of Eretz Yisrael.

    #1743372

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    According to religious Zionists, galus is definitely not over, even for those living in Israel. We believe that the State of Israel is part of the geulah, but it’s not complete.
    When the Old City was retaken in 1967, what did Rabbi Goren do? He made a brachah of Menachem Tzion u’voneh Yerushalayim. He recognized that our geulah was still not complete, since Yerushalayim is not completely rebuilt yet. Zionists in Israel still say Leshana haba’a b’Yerushalayim. If they believed that galus was over, why would they say that?
    As for non-religious Zionists, do they really believe in galus at all? After all, they don’t believe in Shabbos, kosher, taharas hamishpacha, and many other things, so why would you really take their opinion into account?

    #1743380

    jdb
    Participant

    This isn’t a yes or no question, there are varying shades of gray. You can be in EY and still be in galus.

    On that note, geulah and moshiach are also generally not regarded as black and white. There are stages and phases. Even the most ardent Zionist say a Yehi Ratzon on Yom Haatamuat and Yom Yerushalayim praying for the guelah shelayma – implying that we don’t yet have the full geulah. And many who are not zionists still believe that we are in ikvesah demeshicha – because of the holocaust, etc.

    Let’s focus on what we have in common and daven for progress.

    #1743399

    charliehall
    Participant

    manitou,

    The events surrounding Chanukah led to a pre-Mashiach Jewish state that lasted for 80 years. It, too, is mentioned in Chazal (not always favorably).

    #1743412

    charliehall
    Participant

    Avi K,

    That it is a requirement to have a King is NOT unanimous. Ibn Ezra says it is optional and Abarbanel explains in great detail why it is a bad idea. Anyone who has learned Sefer Melachim and Sefer Divrei Hayamim would see how badly monarchy worked out for us.

    #1743448

    manitou
    Participant

    Charliehall
    It’s true that it isn’t always mentioned favorably but the Rambam says that we celebrate Chanukah shechazra malchus liyisroel yeser mimasaim shana, so it need not be all rosy to appreciate that we have our own self determination.

    #1743432

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “According to religious Zionists, galus is definitely not over, even for those living in Israel. We believe that the State of Israel is part of the geulah, but it’s not complete.“

    So if that’s true that brings me back to my original question

    “This is what golis is all about. You made your השתדלות now hashem wants you to leave.
    Pack your bags and leave while you still can. בטל רצונך מפני רצונו”

    Maybe I should say that about the people who don’t want to be a part of the draft

    #1743455

    Avi K
    Participant

    Charlie, did you read my entire post? I wrote that any leader elected by the people can be in place of a king.

    #1743507

    Health
    Participant

    manitou -“meanwhile it is a thriving success in every metric”

    Yes, especially the Gays! Did you hear that they had 250K at their parade in Tel Aviv?!?

    #1743640

    manitou
    Participant

    Health
    There are always people who see the bad even in a great situation.

    #1743850

    Avi K
    Participant

    There is a type of tamei bird that is called a ro’eh because he sits in chutz la’aretz and sees a neveila in EY (Chullin 63b). The Kotzker says that nothing is more tamei than that.

    #1744077

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “There are always people who see the bad even in a great situation.”
    What’s the great situation? The pride parade specifically, or just the general warm vibe of living in an anti-religious state which does not guarantee basic liberties like freedom or speech and/or fair trial?

    “so it need not be all rosy to appreciate that we have our own self determination.”
    A state run by atheists and arabs with a ~5-10% representation for frum yidden is not a Jewish state. The Torah has no interest in chilonim having “self-determination.”

    #1744101

    Joseph
    Participant

    Well said, Neville.

    #1744211

    MrSarahLevine613
    Participant

    “The Kotzker lived in chutz l’aaretz, Avi.”

    Avi — say it again…just slower this time.

    #1744257

    Avi K
    Participant

    Neville, you probably look at half a glass of water and say that it is half empty. We have our own security services which have rabbanim, kosher dining facilities, etc. I know for a fact that sometimes they also send questions to Rav Asher Weiss as he has so stated in his shiurim. In fact, all public institutions have kosher eating facilities, except where pikuach nefesh is involved they close on Shabbat (and in most cases also erev Shabbat). Jewish civil law (Mishpat Ivri) has official status and is often cited in court decisions. I could continue but my post would be deleted as overly long.

    MrSarah (I thought that we don’t allow that), he did not denigrate EY or its inhabitants. Interestingly, this week we in Israel are reading the parsha of the spies.

    #1745843

    EphraimBarLevi
    Participant

    Of course Israel is not part of galus. Galus by definition means being outside of Eretz Yisrael. Are a significant portion of Am Yisrael in Galus, yes. Therefore, it can be said that Klal Yisrael as a whole is still in a state of Galus. A Jew who lives in Eretz Yisrael is not in Galus. Even so, Has the Geula been finalized? No, not even in Israel. That is a different question. We all still have a long way to go.

    #1745862

    Joseph
    Participant

    It depends whether you practice Judaism or whether you practice Zionism.

    #1745923

    Grey matter
    Participant

    Clearly none of us have any clue when and how moshiach will come. Everyone seems to have very strong opinions but that are based on pure conjecture. But perhaps it is possible based on the explosion of the Kiruv moment and the exponential population growth of observant Jews that we will in the very distant future gain more influence until observant Jews take over Israeli institutions

    #1745925

    Grey matter
    Participant

    Correction not so distant future

    #1745985

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    EphraimBarLevi: Actually, R’ Hershel Schachter says that galus doesn’t mean being away from Eretz Yisrael. He says it’s a lack of gilui shechinah. So even though we have Eretz Yisrael now, doesn’t mean the people there aren’t in galus – until the full geulah, when the shechinah will dwell among us in the Beis haMikdash, we are all in galus.
    The whole piece about it is in the sefer R’ Schachter on the Parshah. I don’t recall which parshah it’s written for, and I don’t have the sefer with me now to check.

    #1746032

    YossiBaumol
    Participant

    no reference to the establishment of a Jewish state, before moshiach??? The Maabim brings a detailed description of the pre-moshiach state with a number of sources- Michah 4:8:
    שהגליות יתחילו להתקבץ וגלות יהודה ובנימין שהם בת ציון שגלו מציון בחורבן בית שני יתקבצו אליך, ואח”כ ובאה הממשלה הראשונה, תבוא ממשלה קטנה, שיהיה להם קצת ממשלה והנהגה כמו שהיו לישראל בימים הראשונים לפני מלך מלך לבני ישראל שהיה להם שופטים מנהיגים אותם, ואח”כ תבא ממלכת לבת ירושלים יהיה להם מלכות קבוע שהוא מלכות ב”ד, שאח”כ ימלוך המלך המשיח בממלכה קבועה, (וכן התבאר ביחזקאל סי’ ל”ד כ”ג כ”ד, וסי’ ל”ו כ”ד כ”ה, ועמוס ט’ י”א), שמלכות ב”ד תתגלה בהדרגה, ותחלה לא יהיה רק במדרגת שופט ויתעלה לאט לאט עד שיהיה לה’ המלוכה, עיי”ש:
    The re-establishment of the Jews as a “strong fortress” will happen in 3 stages: 1) Those who were exiled from Yehuda and Binyamin will begin to return to Tzion; 2) There will be a “small government” like Bnei Yisrael had before their first monarchy, led by shoftim; 3) There will be the establishment of malchut beit David, when Mashiach will rule. Malchut beit David will be revealed in stages, the first of which is only at the level of a shofeit, and then it will slowly rise to the point that HaShem will have malchut.

    #1746128

    lakewhut
    Participant

    The fact that we were zoche to start living again in Israel and have successfully opened up so many yeshivos and seminaries where Jews of all types grow, doesn’t mean that it’s not part of golus. This can be a vehicle to bring moshiach, if we show we want it.

    #1746214

    Grey matter
    Participant

    The question wich the thread is dealing with seems more like a question in terminology than anything else especially relevant. We all agree Israel right now is far from ideal and that there are some aspects theat are historicaly very good

    #1746343

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This was the argument at the meraglim wheher the redemption will come spontatenously with only the help of Hashem or together with our help. The meraglim held that they have to put their effort into it which they are unable to do. Currently, we have a similar argument between the Minchas Elozor and the Aim Habonim Somecha who says it will come slowly like a עני רוכב על החמור.

    #1746375

    Grey matter
    Participant

    Rambam says that the way in wich moshiach will come is unknown to us. It is closed to the prophets and there is no tradition wich explains it. It is based on the reading of pesukim.Thusly there are disputes about these things. A person should not become too involved or spend to much time in these matters for they do not bring fear or love of heaven.Rather a person should believe in general. In other words this is an exercise of futility.

    #1751947

    uknowwhatimsayin
    Participant

    Hey coffee addict,

    Would like to suggest a possibility and would love feedback:
    The term גלות means exile. If this is correct there can be two definitions of the term. (Place and and era/period in history)
    {There is a concept of ישוב ארץ ישראל , regardless of whether משיח has come or not. }
    There has been a level of קיבוץ גלויות in the past 100 years… עיין history.
    While there are some that believe that this קיבוץ גלויות is an התחלה to the גאולה, I don’t believe anyone actually thinks that משיח is here.
    So while משיח hasn’t come yet, we still have the ability to live in the מקום of ארץ ישראל— not the land of גלות, but we are very well still in the era/period of גלות.

    #1752873

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Uknow,

    What you’re saying makes sense, however my main beef is when people make it sound like Israel is a utopian place where there is no שנאה which isn’t true

    Therefore moving to Israel might not help save oneself from persecution

    #1752915

    Avi K
    Participant

    CA, my beef is with people who say that the glass is half or even mostly empty. If one is supposed to judge one’s fellow favorably (and the Sefat Emmet interprets “כל האדם” as opposed to “כל אדם” as meaning that one should look at everything about the person) how much more so the nation-state of the Jewish people.

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