November 28, 2016 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #618744ZionistWannabeMember
I saw someone posted something about anti-semitism in another thread that Israel is the safest place they can think of. Really? With all of the violence going on in Israel, is it really safe?
I know that chazal say that it’s the safest place on the planet, but how does that reconcile with the latest acts of arson terror? The years of intifida? (Okay, that’s less of a factor, but the fires and the last few summers really seem to have taken up the nisayon a notch.)
What say you?November 28, 2016 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1196711akupermaParticipant
It is Olam ha-Zeh that is unsafe. Eretz Yisrael and America are both within Olam ha-Zeh, which is the problem.November 28, 2016 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1196712golferParticipant
a. The CR has been here, done this, countless times.
b. You’re trying to introduce logic and statistics into a subject that is above and beyond that kind of mathematical thinking.
Israel, the place and the nation, exist on a plane that is lema’alah mi’derech ha’teva.
I realize my words can be misunderstood.
We all know who “Israel the nation” refers to (I think).
When I say “Israel the place” I’m referring to Eretz Yisrael, as in “Elokei Hashamayim ve’Elokei Ha’aretz”. Not to the modern political entity.November 28, 2016 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1196713
Remember that Chazal’s statements about the safety of Eretz Yisroel applies equally to all parts of EY, whether Tel Aviv, Southern Lebanon or Jordan. And it does not apply to parts of the State of Israel that is outside of Eretz Yisroel, such as Eilat.November 28, 2016 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1196714
Statistically speaking, the average life span is higher in Israel than in the United States, so apparently it is safer to live here.
Hashem decides how long our lives are. No one else can determine that. If someone dies in a terrorist attack, it means that they were meant to die and would have done in the US if they had chosen to live there.
The only exception would be (possibly) if the person chose to live somewhere that was declared a dangerous place by the Gedolim and they said that one is forbidden to go there.
If someone is going to die anyhow, it is way better to die in Eretz Yisrael, al Kiddush Hashem (and receive all the reward that entails) than to die a meaningless death in chutz l’aretz.November 28, 2016 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1196715
The average US lifespan is brought down notably by inner-city/minority drug use and crime that Jewish life isn’t affected much by, much as the Arab lifespan in Israel reduces the statistical figures there.November 28, 2016 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1196716
“The average US lifespan is brought down notably by inner-city/minority drug use and crime that Jewish life isn’t affected much by”
We are affected by it to some extent. Also, the suicide rate is probably much higher in the US, which unfortunately is also true of the Jewish population there.
My real point is that there are so many factors affecting a person’s lifespan, so you can’t really say that Israel is dangerous because of a few terrorist attacks. Even within Israel, terrorist attacks do not come close to being the main source of death. Car accidents are much more common, but no one considers it dangerous to live in Israel because of that. And no one avoids crossing the street or taking a taxi because of it.
Statistically speaking, the chances of being killed in a terrorist attack or even of being killed in a car accident are negligible.November 28, 2016 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1196718
But the main issue is still the one I mentioned above that Hashem decides our lifespan. As long as you aren’t doing something assur. And since living in Eretz Yisrael is a Mitzvah, you will only gain by it (unless there is a reason that you, personally are not supposed to be living here – for example, you have a responsibility to consider where your kids’ chinuch will be better).November 29, 2016 12:07 am at 12:07 am #1196719Torah613TorahParticipant
Hashem decides who and where is safe.November 29, 2016 5:47 am at 5:47 am #1196720
Joseph, there are separate statistics by race and gender. While it varies from state to state the overall white life expectancy in the US is 79.12 You can google “LIFE EXPECTANCY WHITE AMERICAN”. Israel is number 6 in the world (there are ties for 4 and 5) at 82.5. The annual World Happiness Report published by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network (SDSN) ranked Israel as the 11th happiest country in the world for a third year in a row. The US is number 13.December 1, 2016 4:45 am at 4:45 am #1196721LightbriteParticipant
The risks are different in Israel.
Even between religious and secular Jews, depending on whether they and/or their children serve in the IDF.
It may be safer and more socially acceptable to hitchhike in Israel and totally normal to go to a stranger’s home for a Rocha tzorayeem, which is more risky in the US.
Yet then there is terrorism and missiles in Israel in the backdrop. If not physical then that alone can also psychologically damaging.
Yet ain kmo ha comradery b’Aretz. And obviously living in a holy medina can infuse one’s life with so much meaning that it affords higher tolerance to cope with the challenges.
There are so many angles hereDecember 1, 2016 5:18 am at 5:18 am #1196722
I once hitchhiked with a friend and was treated to a lecture about the dangers of hitchhiking by the person who gave us the ride. Only in Israel.
(Disclaimer: I would normally not do anything quite that dumb, but I was sort of forced into it).December 1, 2016 5:46 am at 5:46 am #1196723
Lilmod, once wjhen I hitchhiked (in Yehuda v’Shomron it is widespread and one can usually even tell the driver’s destination by a windshield sticker) and was asked to pay for the ride with a devar Torah. I told the driver that I heard from one of his talmidim that Rav Gustman prohibited listening to tapes of shiurim while driving as oine could be distracted. The driver went into a long pilpul about why he thoughtt hat it is permitted.December 1, 2016 8:39 am at 8:39 am #1196724WinnieThePoohParticipant
Don’t forget that E”Y has more hashgacha pratis than other places, although that does not mean that bad things do not happen. yet, even when bad things do happen, we are also zoche to many miracles that prevent even more loss of life. Does anyone remember the Scuds during the first gulf war. Yes, scuds falling nightly and people sitting in sealed rooms was bad, yet there were almost no fatalities, while 1 scud in Saudi Arabia killed over a hundred (I don’t remember exactly how many) American soldiers.
Think of this mashal- a parent punishes his child, the child may feel like bad things are happening to him, but he still would rather be home with the parent, and feels safest there, than anywhere else.
Not to mention, that most people in most places feel perfectly comfortable walking alone late at night, letting their kids go out alone, etc. How true is that is most other places?December 2, 2016 5:59 am at 5:59 am #1196725
Avi K – cute story. Thanks for sharing. I guess he got his Dvar Torah after all.December 2, 2016 6:36 am at 6:36 am #1196726LightbriteParticipant
“I once hitchhiked with a friend and was treated to a lecture about the dangers of hitchhiking by the person who gave us the ride. Only in Israel.”
lilmod ulelamaid: LOL!!!!! Seriously still laughingDecember 4, 2016 5:50 am at 5:50 am #1196727yehudayonaParticipant
LuL, I looked up suicide rate in Israel and the U.S., and you’re correct: the U.S. rate is more than double the Israel rate. You mention traffic accidents as major cause of death. The rate of deaths from traffic accidents is higher in the U.S. as well, no matter how you measure it. In the U.S., adult deaths from traffic accidents are dwarfed by deaths from drug overdoses. If you think that drug use is an inner city problem, you haven’t been paying attention. America’s heroin overdose capital is Huntington, WV, population under 50,000, about 90% white.December 4, 2016 8:24 am at 8:24 am #1196728
Lakewood is far down the list. A better rate even than the national rate of the State of Israel.December 4, 2016 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1196729
Joseph, I checked and the crime rate in Lakewood is times higher than in Israel. The murder rate is three times that of Israel.December 4, 2016 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1196730
Not in the Jewish community of Lakewood. Not even close.December 4, 2016 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1196731
Also, the State of Israel’s murder rate excludes terror related deaths and war deaths of civilian and military personnel.December 4, 2016 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1196732
The Jews aren’t committing the crimes, but crimes are committed against them. There are tons of mugging in Lakewood, and there would be more if people weren’t scared to walk around at night.
There have also been several attempted kidnappings and abductions, and at least one actual abduction.
There are far more muggings and attempted kidnappings in Lakewood than in Israel. And this is despite the fact that people are much more careful there than in EY. In Israel, people walk around late at night, and give their kids much more freedom, since kidnapping is not an issue.
Also, if you are only talking about Lakewood, then you shouldn’t be comparing it to the entire Israel – you should be comparing it to places like Beitar, Ramat Beit Shemesh and Kiryat Sefer. The crime rate is way lower in those places than in Lakewood!December 4, 2016 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1196733
“Lakewood is far down the list. A better rate even than the national rate of the State of Israel.”
If you are talking about drug use and suicides in the Frum community, I think it is probably higher in Lakewood than in EY.December 4, 2016 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1196734zahavasdadParticipant
The problem with lakewood is not crime, but rather traffic fatalities. there are plenty of parts of Lakewood with no sidewalks and no traffic lights so people are forced to walk Friday night on the streets and some are unfortunatly hit by cars.
I saw somewhere it was recommended people were some sort of reflective coats to help drivers see them, but when I go there I dont see anyone wear themDecember 4, 2016 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1196735
YY – thanks for the statistics. It is interesting that the rate of traffic accidents is higher in the US than in EY. I had not known that.December 4, 2016 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1196736
We’re speaking of the murder rate, whether criminal murder, terror related or military and civilian deaths in war or peacetime. And we’re speaking of victims in the Jewish community specifically, not the Arabs, African-Americans or Hispanics.December 4, 2016 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1196737
We weren’t talking about the murder rate. We were talking about danger in general.December 4, 2016 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1196738
Murder, terror and war related deaths are a far greater danger than muggings.December 4, 2016 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1196739
But muggings are much more likely to happen, so they have to be taken into account as well since they can be dangerous. Even though murder is a greater danger in theory, l’maaseh, it if doesn’t happen to me, it is not at all dangerous, whereas the mugging that did happen to me was dangerous.
How likely something is to happen is a very big factor that has to be taken into account when talking about potential dangers. That’s why people don’t usually bring up statistics comparing the numbers of people who are struck by lightning.December 4, 2016 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #1196740
I don’t think there has ever been a murder in Ramat Beit Shemesh or Kiryat Sefer, bli ayin hora.December 5, 2016 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1196741
How many Jews in Lakewood were murdered in that timeframe?December 5, 2016 2:15 am at 2:15 am #1196742
I didn’t say there were any. My point is that you said that the US is safer than Israel because there are no murders of Yidden in Lakewood (bli ayin hara) so I am pointing out that haven’t been any murders (bli ayin hara) in Ramat Beit Shemesh or Kiryat Sefer either.
And in addition, there haven’t been any muggings or abductions which there have been in Lakewood.December 5, 2016 6:08 am at 6:08 am #1196743
Joseph, the Sate of Israel’s murder rate includes terrorist murders (bli ayin hara attacks in the last couple of years have been almost completely unsuccessful) – and also “family honor” crimes. Civilian war deaths have also been, ba”h, negligible. In fact, baruch Hashem, the rain of scud missiles in the first Gulf War resulted in only two deaths – one heart attack from fear and an asphyxiation death due to not putting on a gas mask properly.
My question is why are you motzi dibbat haAretz? Are you wracked by guilt over not making aliya or are have you been elected President of the Association of Erev Ravniks and Spies?December 5, 2016 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1196744
Thanks Avi for bringing up the dibas haAretz issue.December 5, 2016 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1196745
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