March 9, 2014 5:26 am at 5:26 am #612292HLMMember
Is it appropriate to propose at kotel…
Opinions?March 9, 2014 10:32 am at 10:32 am #1007490notasheepMember
Perhaps not right in front, but maybe somewhere in the plaza if it’s done right, just a simple proposal and nothing schticky or flashy.March 9, 2014 10:33 am at 10:33 am #1007491notasheepMember
Maybe something like, “I would like to come back here with you sometime in the future… will you marry me?”March 9, 2014 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1007493ronrsrMember
what better place to consider starting a new jewish home.March 9, 2014 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1007495
Go ask a Gadol Hador in Eretz Yisroel and let us know what he says and what he says on the whole idea of proposing which is something not according to Torah values.
The kosel is a Makom Kadosh and abused in many ways with people using it as social hangout. Someone once pointed out to me that one was not even permitted to taked photos as the kosel, so we stopped.March 9, 2014 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1007497midwesternerParticipant
Source for “one was not even permitted to taked photos as the kosel” please?March 9, 2014 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1007498zahavasdadParticipant
There is a Kosel Webcam
Perhaps some dont allow Photos, but there are others who do allow itMarch 9, 2014 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1007499the-art-of-moiParticipant
Mazal Tov!March 9, 2014 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1007500writersoulParticipant
My friend saw an adorable proposal not at the Kotel but in the Old City overlooking the plaza- I saw pictures and, if by some chance my future chosson is on here, he should take notes because I want one :). As ronsr said, I can’t imagine a more beautiful and significant place for something like this.March 9, 2014 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #1007503👑RebYidd23Participant
If there is no proposal, the marriage is not right because both sides mightn’t agree.March 9, 2014 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #1007504akupermaParticipant
Assuming they are both Jewish and of different genders, why not?March 9, 2014 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1007505
Yaakov Avinu met Rochel at the well and fell in love.
The following is a rough translation of a paragraph written by R’ Aron Kotler ztz”l. It is part of an essay bemoaning the juvenile and uneducated way people understand chumash:
Another example of a parsha in the Torah which people in the street understand in a distorted fashion is the story of Yakov and Rochel … if we evaluate this story by mixing in even a hint of personal desires, we have offended greatly towards Yakov, whose image is engraved on the Kisei HaKovod … furthermore, there is no basis at all to such an understanding … thus such an explanation is certainly a perversion, and indeed blasphemous.March 9, 2014 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1007506FriendInFlatbushParticipant
No, it is inappropriate. Proposing is neither erusin nor kiddushin.March 10, 2014 1:46 am at 1:46 am #1007507
I personally feel very strongly against the many inappropriate “uses” the Kosel is put to, which turn it into a tourist attraction at best, and often much worse.
In this case, I just can’t see anything inappropriate with it serving as a setting for a proposal. (As opposed to, say, when kallah’s come to use it as a background for their pictures on their wedding day – don’t get me started!)
This is a completely different discussion from the appropriateness of different ways of proposing, many of which employ a levity which perhaps detracts from the seriousness and importance of what’s occurring, and is what I imagine most people really have a problem with when they say they have a problem with “proposals”.
Someone who does indeed have a problem with proposals per se should better address the main issue of the way we date, of which our proposals are only a natural outgrowth.March 10, 2014 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1007508no longer need seminaryMember
i dont think it is right. it is like you are not allowed to kiss a baby in shul because it shows love towards the baby when you are in Hashems home. you are supposed to be showing love to Hashem. so by the kosel, i think your focus should be on tefillos and then leave and propose in the old city.March 10, 2014 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1007509zvei dinimParticipant
My Rebbe HaRav Asher Arieli once came back from the Kosel friday night, his new father in law, Rav Nachum Partzovitz, asked him how it was, and he mentioned there was dancing. Rav Nachum asked if it was appropriate to dance in front of a dead body of a relative, i.e. the Churban.March 10, 2014 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1007510twistedParticipant
See Yirmiyahu 33;11March 10, 2014 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1007511
This is one of the (very few) times I feel I have to disagree.
While it’s true Yaakov did “fall in love” with Rochel, he was certainly on a higher plane than our fleshy desires and cravings, as Logician noted, brought too in many seforim.
However, you are right to a degree, as the Ohr Hachaim writes, the Torah, while relating any episode chooses the wording it does to teach the right way of life. So yes, to propose (however way deemed appropriate) is commendable, actually a (hecsher) Mitzva.
The main point I’m disagreeing on, is that there’s a place for everything. The setting of a propositioning is not really in line with the Kedusha of the Kosel, or any Holy area. Actually it really should be done more privately as the setting of one’s intimate closeness with his/her future other half. We find in Gemarah it’s wrong to be Mekadesh in a public domain, it’s not something done in the “public eye”, it’s a private thing, introducing a “home privacy”. This is certainly not in line with the Kedusha, the decorum of a holy place.
There are many Mitzvhos. To attend one’s bodily needs is also a Mitzvah, yet it’s certainly not done in a holy place, nor in any public area. Every Mitzvah, every deed has its place, its proper setting. Feelings of awe and respect, holiness and sanctity are the right settings for a Makom Kadosh.March 10, 2014 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1007512besalelParticipant
a juvenile and uneducated way to understand chumash is to accept medrash aggada as pshat, disregard all authorities except rashi and explain the words in a way that contravene common sense. it is also a fallacy to believe that the avos were malachim and not people and that they did not not have human emotions.March 10, 2014 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1007513
Oh, excuse me! I didn’t realize that our resident Bible Critic was logged in.
Ah, if only R’ Aron could have met you, and you would have set him straight from his uneducated and juvenile ways!March 10, 2014 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1007514
LF – I’m not quite understanding how you are mixing the need for privacy, with the awe of the place.
Equating a quiet, private conversation with a kidushin ? I don’t think so.March 11, 2014 12:03 am at 12:03 am #1007515
I don’t know what you’re getting at. There are four general views to the Torah, and they branch off to seventy. Many levels, and all are true, some in a different angle, sense, direction. The actual, factual “down to earth”, gashmius level is often discussed in the many commentaries of Chumash. Medrashic lore is generally understood in a different view – Drush. All views are true.
What you write about the Avos is slightly true, they were certainly NOT malachim, they were so much higher! They had, as you noted, human emotions, yet worked themselves up the spiritual ladder far, far more than a celestial Malach. Me and you don’t have daily conversations with angels. Last time I fought with a Malach, it bode me no good. And my (your’s too) portrait is certainly not posted on the Kesei Hakovod. Obviously the Avos were something way way up! We’re supposed to goad ourselves on in life – ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? – when will our actions TOUCH UPON, a mere touch, to those of our holy forefathers. There’s a very special reason we mention our forefathers at the beginning of Amida thrice daily. Their zchusim were and are the pillars of our Nation’s existence.March 11, 2014 12:54 am at 12:54 am #1007516
You don’t know what I’m getting at ? Did I say something ? I quoted a source. You don’t like it ? You disagree ?! You have a differing one ?
What does your beautiful little monologue have to do with anything ? Because you’re supposed to learn from them, that gives you the right to interpret their actions according to your understanding ?
Pshat does not mean the first thought that pops into our puny little minds. It is the meaning of the words themselves, not what the words represent or hint to. The meaning of those ‘simple’ words, however, are still subject to only certain possible choices, and there can certainly be invalid ones [a common misunderstanding].
Anyhow, we are hijacking this thread. I’m much more interested in your answers to my response to YOUR post.March 11, 2014 1:19 am at 1:19 am #1007517besalelParticipant
Much has been said about the failure of the yeshiva system to bequeth its talmidim with a secular education. Not enough has been said about its failures in giving a true torah education. Usually everyone can agree that the bnei yeshiva are of impeccable middos and derech eretz. With some unfortunately this too has eluded them.March 11, 2014 2:00 am at 2:00 am #1007518☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Besalel, if, “Usually everyone can agree that the bnei yeshiva are of impeccable middos and derech eretz”, then the exceptions are not a failure of the system, but a failure of those individuals.
Not sure what the shaychus is to this thread, though.March 11, 2014 3:02 am at 3:02 am #1007519
Little Froggie, if this is one of the few times with which we disagree, I would say we are doing pretty well, so far. 🙂
Now as to your quote:
“The setting of a propositioning”
I believe you meant “proposing,” as propositioning someone is NEVER a tzniusdig davar sheb’kedusha.
I still feel(albeit emotionally and without Halachic foundation) that the Kosel does not seem to me to be an inappropriate place to ask someone to agree to marry. If anything, to me the Kedushas Hamakom would inspire me spiritually to really feel awe-inspired at that moment, and to ask Hashem for a special Bracha while standing there. In the absence of an actual Halacha that forbids such a thing (and I have no idea if that is the case or not, so forgive my admitted ignorance), I don’t think anyone needs to project his/her own personal feelings onto it to say it is wrong. Maybe it is, but maybe it is NOT. What does Daas Torah say about this?March 11, 2014 4:26 am at 4:26 am #1007520
Be careful, Oomis, I may end up agreeing!
I did mean “proposing” instead of the other word.
What does Daas Torah say about it? How should I know. I’m the last (ok, second to last) Froggie to know the Torah, practical Halachah etc. Everything I spout out here is pure speculation.
I still feel there is a certain “lightness” to the proposing, something to the contrary of Chazal who say ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????, even though this isn’t really Sha’ar Hamizrach. The union of man and woman, no matter how sublime, uplifting, elevated has a nekudah, a point of “kalus”. – again, those are my own humble views, feelings.March 11, 2014 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1007521jewishfeminist02Member
need seminary help, do you have a source for not kissing babies in shul?March 11, 2014 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1007522
I cannot think of many things that require more solemnity than making the decision to get married.March 11, 2014 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #1007523
Shulchan Aruch 98:1
and not only children.
Not during davening is questionable.March 12, 2014 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1007524play no games plsMember
oomis, i tend to agree with you, but i don’t think the other posters are really disagreeing. i think though, that proposing has changed a lot over the past several years. now, a bochur is expected to put on a song and dance, declare his love in a humorous and flamboyant way, and present her with flowers, balloons, etc all declaring loudly his “love”.
surely, you would agree that the place for this is not in front of the kosel?
if he is solemnly asking her in a meaningful and introspective place, then yes, at the kosel is beautiful. they can join together in tefilla for their future.March 12, 2014 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1007525Veltz MeshugenerMember
Besalel is completely correct. I was going to write that I agree with him, but then I dug deeper into the matter and determined that I agree with him because he is correct.
The story with R’ Nachum as well illustrates the fallacy of this mode of avodah. Would you dance at the grave of a relative? Under certain circumstances, sure. For example, if the relative spent his life trying to find a cure for cancer, and some time after he died, a process he discovered is perfected and turns out to be effective. I would absolutely celebrate at his grave.
The Bais Hamikdash was destroyed because of sinas chinam. It is perfectly valid avodah to dance at the kosel as an expression of achdus. If R’ Nochum doesn’t want to dance he doesn’t have to. I assure you, R’ Nachman will not give him lomdus tips.
editedMarch 12, 2014 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1007526
surely, you would agree that the place for this is not in front of the kosel?”
I do agree with your entire post.March 13, 2014 10:32 am at 10:32 am #1007528interjectionParticipant
It is appropriate to propose at the kotel. It can be argued if it is inappropriate to make a whole scene of it.
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