Is it Bittual Torah to learn to be a Marksman?

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    With all the new lately, Calls are coming in to arm Jews. One cannot just carry a gun, you have to be a good shot and a good shot requires practice

    How much bittual torah is allowed to learn to learn how to be a good shot

    Reb Eliezer

    They apply the pasuk ื”ืงืœ ืงื•ืœ ื™ืขืงื‘ ื•ื”ื™ื“ื™ื ื™ื“ื™ ืขืฉื• Yaakov is suppose to accomplish things with his voice and not with arms, let others protect us and at this time, those who sit at learn, should do so.



    Why does the time have to come from your learning schedule? Why not limit your internet and commenting time to schedule your shmira training?

    Or ask a Rov? You know?


    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I personally have plenty of other sources of bittul Torah to be concerned about before this.


    The Midrash Raba (65:20):
    ืื™ืŸ ื™ืขืงื‘ ืฉื•ืœื˜ ืืœื ื‘ืงื•ืœื• โ€“ ื”ืงื•ืœ ืงื•ืœ ื™ืขืงื‘, ื•ื”ื™ื“ื™ื ื™ื“ื™ ืขืฉื• โ€“ ืื™ืŸ ืขืฉื• ืฉื•ืœื˜ ืืœื ื‘ื™ื“ื™ื… ื‘ืฉืขื” ืฉื™ืขืงื‘ ืžืจื›ื™ืŸ ื‘ืงื•ืœื• ื™ื“ื™ ืขืฉื• ืฉื•ืœื˜ื•ืช… ื•ื‘ืฉืขื” ืฉื”ื•ื ืžืฆืคืฆืฃ ื‘ืงื•ืœื•… ืื™ืŸ ื™ื“ื™ ืขืฉื• ืฉื•ืœื˜ื•ืช… ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ืฉืงื•ืœื• ืฉืœ ื™ืขืงื‘ ืžืฆื•ื™ ื‘ื‘ืชื™ ื›ื ืกื™ื•ืช ืื™ืŸ ื”ื™ื“ื™ื ื™ื“ื™ ืขืฉื•, ื•ืื ืœืื• ื”ื™ื“ื™ื ื™ื“ื™ ืขืฉื•

    Does not say not to fight back. Says that prayer will determine if Eisav’s might will prevail.


    Habah l’hargecha hashkem l’hargo.
    Laskern, the posuk clearly states you should kill him, not wait for someone else to do it.
    And you will need a gun to kill a gunman, so it is not bitut torah to get a gun. And having a gun without learning to use it us clearly a lack of hishtadlus.

    Hiring someone to protect you is another option, just like hiring a mohel or teacher for your kids, or hiring someone to learn torah on your behalf.


    “They apply the pasuk ื”ืงืœ ืงื•ืœ ื™ืขืงื‘ ื•ื”ื™ื“ื™ื ื™ื“ื™ ืขืฉื•”

    who applies that?
    Other than people who don’t keep going in chumash and perhaps add Rashi “ื”ึดืชึฐืงึดื™ืŸ ืขึทืฆึฐืžื•ึน ืœึดืฉืึฐืœึนืฉืึธื” ื“ึผึฐื‘ึธืจึดื™ื, ืœึฐื“ื•ึนืจื•ึนืŸ, ืœึดืชึฐืคึดืœึผึธื” ื•ึผืœึฐืžึดืœึฐื—ึธืžึธื””


    Wouldn’t supporters of banning weapons oppose allowing non-law enforcement people having weapons in worship houses?


    They apply the pasuk ื”ืงืœ ืงื•ืœ ื™ืขืงื‘ ื•ื”ื™ื“ื™ื ื™ื“ื™ ืขืฉื• Yaakov is suppose to accomplish things with his voice and not with arms,

    Yet when Yaakov went to meet eisav he prepared himself for war

    Nowhere does it say he โ€œlearned Torahโ€ it says he davened, sent gifts, and prepared himself for war

    To answer the OP, the Torah says ื•ื—ื™ ื‘ื”ื


    Joseph, your need to show how clever you are knows no limits.


    What happened to the concept jews supposed to be pacifistic’aidel’ people
    a friend whose parents and grandparents were Gun Runners for the pre state underground
    They kept one old piece in their apartment

    When Lindsay was mayor he had a gun amnesty
    so embarrassed that other Jews would see that they had a gun in their house they wrapped it up before they turned it in


    Please provide a source for that concept.
    (Someone else can count the number of wars we fought in Tanach.)



    Yes. Yes, they would.

    Next question.


    The most important thing isn’t to be a good shot. It’s to be good at not having the gun go off accidentally.


    Have the women carry the guns, it’s less bitul Torah that way.


    On a list of “My 10 Favorite Bitul Torah Activities”, learning how to defend oneself/family would not even register….posting stupid threads in the CR would certainly be no. 6 or 7….


    ื ื•ื“ืข ื‘ื™ื”ื•ื“ื” in his Strong Aversion to hunting


    Have the women carry the guns, itโ€™s less bitul Torah that way.

    ื‘ื’ื“ ืื™ืฉ?


    Gadolhadorah lol literally


    Jews are not pacifists. One ex-jew – whose name i omit – maybe.
    Lakol zman va’eis (koheles, ecclesiastes)


    For those of you who are machmir on the Second Amendment and love your Glocks, consider forming a circle with your chevrusah after davening and improve your shooting skills while simultaneously reducing the threat to the rest of us from introducing even more weapons into the public space.


    RebYidd do you have experience with guns or are you shooting in the dark? Modern firearms have excellent accident-prevention features.


    GadolHadorah, are you in Canada taking advantage of the new law? Your last post is incoherent .


    I donโ€™t believe private citizens should have guns in the USA and support strict gun control as well as bans on certain weapons.
    That said, I would draft the laws to allow licensing of private security guards such as work in banks to be trained and guard houses of worship and schools.

    Back when I was in Junior High School (more than 50 years ago) we walked from yeshiva to the public school for physical education classes three times a week. There was a shooting range and we were taught to fire pistols and rifles. I assume they expected most of the publicrandchil school kids would end up going to Viet Nam after High School.
    At age 18 I was issued a pistol permit based on this training. I have never owned a gun and would not allow it in the house. I do occasionally go to a local range and target shoot and take gun safety classes.
    None of my children or grandchildren have ever fired a gun and thatโ€™s fine with me.


    Coffee addict, many don’t hold that way.


    StuartW, one of the most common types of gun accident is human error. The gun can’t tell if you mean it when you shoot, and it can’t tell if someone else takes the gun.


    GadolHadorah, are you in Canada taking advantage of the new law? Your last post is incoherent ..”

    Stewart W: The concept of a “circular firing squad” is well established and first associated with the Third Armored Brigade of the Chelm Defense Force.

    “Circular Firing Squad: A military formation among those ostensibly allied against a common enemy or opponent but whose internal disagreements and attacks end up doing more damage to each other than to their target”

    P.S. The Canadian stuff is actually quite good and there is at least one dispensary with hashgacha from the Kashruth Council of Canada. No Badatz weed yet.


    Rabbi Dr. Raymond Apple, 29/10/18 11:37 | updated: 23:33

    Rabbi Dr Raymond Apple AO RFD is Emeritus Rabbi of the Great Synagogue, Sydney. He is now retired and lives in Jerusalem, where he publishes OzTorah, a weekly email list and website with Torah insights from an Australian perspective.

    Q. Should people be prohibited from having guns?

    A. Guns have wrought immense harm in the United States and elsewhere in the hands of people on a rampage. Hundreds of innocent victims have been killed and hundreds wounded.

    Whatever the perpetratorsโ€™ motives they have made normal life like going to school and shul vulnerable and unsafe.

    There can be no justification for imperiling or destroying human life: everyone, young or old, must be able to โ€œsit under their vine or fig tree with none to make them afraidโ€ (Micah 4:4). Wanton killing is the worst crime there is (Exodus 20:13), even if it is unpremeditated (Numbers 35:11).

    The problem with guns is threefold:

    1. The gun, which is the symbol of all means of doing harm.

    In Jewish law a person must not own a dangerous dog (Bava Kamma 79a). If one owns a dangerous dog it must be kept under restraint at all times (Choshen Mishpat 409:3). Even a dog that is unlikely to do harm must be kept under restraint because it can frighten people (Shabbat 63b).

    Hence it is best that nobody should own a gun and if they do they must keep it under restraint. Not only guns but all potential means of harm must be identified and dealt with as if they were guns, though it is admitted that guns seem to have a worse potential for harm than many other means of damage.

    2. The motivation: society must train its members to be law-abiding and peaceful and not use violence even if they are aggrieved or angry. In the long term, therefore, moral education must aim for good citizenship…

    The community as a whole has this responsibility because no-one should โ€œstand idly by when your fellowโ€™s blood is shedโ€ (Leviticus 19:16). This recommendation does not imply that teachers should be armed. That would be an irrelevant โ€œquick fixโ€.

    Some gun owners will insist that they have valid reasons to possess weapons. This may have an element of validity but there is still something that they can do.

    Acknowledging that other gun owners are a threat to others, โ€œdecentโ€ gun owners must exercise self-discipline and allow themselves and their genuine motives to be placed on a register and be regularly monitored. Fairโ€™s fair and this is something they can do to alleviate the problem.


    Dogs act of their own volition. It doesn’t say that a person shouldn’t
    own weapons, and that they should keep them locked up if they do.

    “Society must train its members to be law-abiding and peaceful
    and not use violence even if they are aggrieved or angry.”

    What does the record show about lawful gun owners using guns in violent crimes?

    โ€œ[D]ecentโ€ gun owners must exercise self-discipline and allow themselves and
    their genuine motives to be placed on a register and be regularly monitored.

    Legally acquired guns in the US are registered to their owners.
    The owners’ motivations, genuine or not, not so much (unless I just don’t know it).

    (The problem with guns is threefold: 1. … 2. …
    Did you omit the 3rd problem or did he?)


    CTL – “I donโ€™t believe private citizens should have guns in the USA”

    You seem to disagree with the Bill of Rights.


    There is a famous story of the Chofetz Chaim, who was asked by a non-religious father to daven for his son that was to be drafted into the (Austrian?) army. (Note – The son was presumably not learning Torah at the time.) He refused the request and said “Vos Iz Shleck as Er Vet Lernin Tzu Shissin?” – ‘What is so bad if he learns how to shoot?’

    The father went home angry and never forgave the Chofetz Chaim. The son did indeed get drafted. Then came WW2, and the son found himself running away from the Germans in the forest along with a group of other Jewish young men. They were discovered by non-Jewish Partisons (non-army independent freedom fighters) who were ready to kill them to prevent them from drawing attention from the Germans. This man spoke up in their defense by offering to join them with his expertise in weapons on condition they take all of them together. They accepted him and thus he saved not only himself, but a group of other young Jewish men as well.

    The son realized then the Chochma of the saintly Chofetz Chaim, and regretted only that his father never lived to understand the truth.

    I am quoting a story I last heard some 15 years ago. Excuse me if I messed up some of the details. The punchline is still relevant – ‘What’s so bad if you learn to shoot?’ (But maybe not during Seder. Use your Bein Hazmanim or other off time.)


    BTW – my father was a marksman in the US Army. He learned it during his 2 year tour of duty. He was drafted in 1952, not during any wartime. He was not in Yeshiva anyway – even back then they only accepted the best students.

    He never did anything with it after he came back home. He didn’t carry a gun or shoot any terrorists. But he still had the skills many years later. He taught me to shoot and was still a crack shot, even with aging eyesight and shaky hands.

    But we always considered it just a game or hobby. We never considered that there might be a question of bringing guns to shul.


    “decent gun owners must exercise self-discipline and allow themselves and their genuine motives to be placed on a register and be regularly monitored.”

    One thing about guns that my father was worried about. I asked him why he didn’t buy any guns (legally) and he said – when the situation eventually changes in America and becomes bad for the Jews, the first ones they will round up and shoot are the ones on their list that they know own guns and are a threat to them.

    Maybe paranoid, but it has happened before elsewhere, and just because it didn’t happen here yet, doesn’t mean that it never could happen.


    Your story proves the almost precise opposite The reason why it was remarkable and extraordinary for him to say that because normally he was very averse for Jewish youth going to the Army

    iirc In 1952 most institutions accepted almost anybody as long as they were sincere and ready
    to self sacrifice To the nth degree,which indeed wasn’t usual

    Avi K

    On the contrary, Time. He was in favor of military service for Jews so that we would be prepared for our own state.


    That wasnt the punchline! The punchline was, “i can see things you cant, ehat looks bad may be good, trust Hashems plan”

    Avi K

    Stuart, Yaakov also prepared for war. I imagine that he took weapons training.

    CTL and Time, criminals will obtain guns no matter what. Today one can even print a gun from the Internet. After a wave of terrorist shootings in Israel the Minister of Public Safety eased the regs for gun licenses. Many attacks have been completely prevented or at least stopped because of armed civilians. However, to get a license one must show need (living in certain areas in considered an ipso facto need) or be a reserve officer in the IDF. Periodic weapons and psychological training are also required.


    The whole question smells of ื›ื™ืฆื“ ืžืขืฉืจื™ื ืืช ืžืœื—.


    What does the record show about lawful gun owners using guns in violent crimes?

    Let me amend that.
    “…violent crimes motivated by personal anger or grievance against the victim?”

    Little Froggie

    Ask Hairy Feldman…


    Who’s that? (I assume he’s not the Jewish pitcher for the NY Giants, 1941-6.)

    Little Froggie

    Hairy Feldman? Commonly known as Esav.



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