Is it muttar to block illegal driveways?

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  • #1550737

    slominer
    Participant

    Is it okay to park in front of illegal driveways?

    #1550754

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    If no one is inside, why not? If it’s illegal, it’s not a driveway.

    If someone’s there, I wouldn’t do it. I’m not sure it’s mutter to inconvenience someone that way.

    #1550765

    icemelter
    Participant

    yitz-“If someone’s there, I wouldn’t do it. I’m not sure it’s mutter to inconvenience someone that way. ”
    -Oh but its ok to inconvenience someone if they might want to pull IN to their driveway. Good to know.

    #1550766

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    What constitutes an illegal drive way?

    #1550771

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What constitutes an illegal drive way?

    If it gets separated from its parents at the border.

    #1550772

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Oh but its ok to inconvenience someone if they might want to pull IN to their driveway. Good to know.

    They have no more right to park in their illegal driveway than you have to park in the spot in front of it.

    #1550782

    icemelter
    Participant

    Daas-“They have no more right to their illegal driveway than you have to the spot in front.”

    -youre right. I was thinking if it was a legal driveway, sometimes people block it if noone is inside. But even with illegal driveway youre still taking a chance of getting your car scratched if the owner doesnt see it as an illegal driveway.

    #1550784

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    The problem is it’s difficult to ascertain if a driveway is illegal. I’m referring to NYC. There is no central online database for it.

    #1550799

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    chances are that if the curb cut does not lead to a garage or driveway, and similar houses do not have a curb cut it’s illegal.

    #1550810

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    anonymous Jew,

    that’s not how it works.

    #1550812

    Meno
    Participant

    In NYC you can search the DOB website and find out if there was a permit to create a driveway. It’s not so straightforward and the information isn’t always there, but it can sometimes help if you get into trouble.

    #1550820

    Meno
    Participant

    that’s not how it works.

    Actually it is (at least in NYC).

    A curb cut with no driveway is not legally considered a driveway.

    #1550882

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Meno,

    I’m sorry you’re misinformed

    #1550887

    Meno
    Participant

    4-01(b) states the definition of a driveway:
    Driveway. Every entrance or exit authorized pursuant to applicable law and used by vehicular traffic to or from lands or buildings abutting a roadway

    4-08(f)(2) states the law regarding parking by a driveway (emphasis mine):
    (2) Driveways. In front of a public or private driveway, except that it shall be permissible for the owner, lessor or lessee of the lot accessed by a private driveway to park a passenger vehicle registered to him/her at that address in front of such driveway, provided that such lot does not contain more than two dwelling units and further provided that such parking does not violate any other provision of the Vehicle and Traffic Law or local law or rule concerning the parking, stopping or standing of motor vehicles. The prohibition herein shall not apply to driveways that have been rendered unusable due to the presence of a building or other fixed obstruction and, therefore, are not being used as defined in §4-01(b) of these rules

    #1550884

    The little I know
    Participant

    Some comments here address aspects of the legality, but the OP asks about a driveway that is illegal. The question posed was about the halacha side of this. I’m not sure that the halachos relevant to the access to traffic (I think the term for this is easement) are equivalent to the secular law. If not, the fact that someone has been using this place for access to his property might be enough to have a halacha (as in hilchos shechainim) to prohibit blocking it. Any halacha experts here wish to weigh in?

    #1550907

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The halacha is Dina D’Malchus Dina and if you disagree, Please tell me what Halacha you broke by going through a Stop Sign or parking in a “No Parking Zone”. If the law says you cant park there, then its an Averiah to park there and if the law decides the street is a one way street, its an Averiah to go down it the wrong way (Even if you are late to Minyan)

    #1550914

    The little I know
    Participant

    ZD:

    You missed my point. DDMD is not the question here. If someone has established a pattern of access to his property, may I block it as per halacha? The matter of the legality of the driveway is not the issue. Maybe that person is in violation of halacha by virtue of Dina Demalchusa Dina. But he has been accessing his property, and has a chazakah of doing so for a long period of time. May I block him?

    #1550915

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Meno,
    That rule means that if there’s nowhere for the car to park in the driveway or curbcut due to a permanent obstacle, it’s no longer illegal to block it.

    A curbcut can lead to a front yard.

    #1550916

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    zahavasdad
    Dina D’Malchus Dina doesn’t extend to every violation. It only extends to violations usually enforced by local law enforcement. (I heard this from R. Reuven in the name of his father)

    On some blocks it’s customary to park on the sidewalk. Even though it violates a law, it’s not a problem of Dina since the local PD looks away

    #1550922

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Before answering the OP, lets back up. It is muttar to make a snap judgement that someones driveway is illegal, because “it just looks like it is”.

    #1550924

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    A curb cut with no driveway is not legally considered a driveway.

    Exception to that is curb cut to mini driveway that leads to basement garage. There are a few of those in my neighborhood, all perfectly legal.

    #1550929

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Meno: Your quote from the Traffic rules does not support your definition of a driveway. My neighbor obtained a permit for a curb cut to a little area in front of his home that fits the definition of 4-01(b) but would not be in anyone’s imagination a “driveway”.

    The question for the OP is how do you know if it’s an “illegal driveway” or not? and what geographic location are you located?

    #1550937

    Joseph
    Participant

    TLIK, what if the homeowner isn’t Jewish?

    #1550944

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Maybe that person is in violation of halacha by virtue of Dina Demalchusa Dina. But he has been accessing his property, and has a chazakah of doing so for a long period of time. May I block him?
    —————————————
    If ddmd applies then how can he have established a chazaka . I dont believe a chazaka can be established if it was done through an avaira, ie: ddmd.

    #1550948

    Yankelle
    Participant

    It’s a mitzvah actually.

    #1550951

    icemelter
    Participant

    It’s an aveirah to break a traffic law? I’m not sure it’s an aveirah to not fully stop at a stop sign or to reverse through a one way street. Maybe only to save you from a fine but pretty sure it’s not an aveirah.

    Even the laws aren’t always enforced it depends on the circumstance and the officers mood.

    #1551002

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    To ZD and all others discussing dina demalchusa,

    I’m sorry to have to break it to you, but actually dina demalchusa according to most opinions only applies to thing the government raises revenue from, like taxes. It is not a violation of halacha at all to blow a stop sign or red light simply because the law says you can’t.

    Of course there is still the halach of venishmartem lenafshoseichem, but in situations where there is no danger (a quiet road in the middle of open country with full 360 degree visibility perhaps?), there is no need to follow such laws.

    #1551821

    Midwest2
    Participant

    ChadGadya, I’m sorry to have to break it to you but you’ve been misinformed. Dina d’malchusa dina applies to all laws that don’t force one to transgress halacha. It isn’t just a matter of cheating on your income tax.

    And what happened to plain old menshtlichkeit? If someone is obviously using something as a driveway, why deliberately block it (even if the person isn’t Jewish)? That’s not how we make friends and influence people (while incidentally avoiding Cillul HaShem).

    #1551822

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “A curbcut can lead to a front yard.”

    Then it isnt illegal to park there.
    Meno has it right.
    A driveway doesnt entitle you to a free parking space on the street. You cant have a “Driveway” that is actually a lawn, or finished garage that his actually a bedroom. Then it isnt a driveway. The law allows you access to your driveway therefore nobody else can park there blocking you.
    There is a dispensation for the homeowner t o block his own driveway. Though even there, it is limited “provided that such lot does not contain more than two dwelling units”

    The classic example is a cafe that has tables for seating in their driveway. If the tables are bolted to the ground. It is no longer a driveway and anybody can park there. IF the tables are not bolted, then nobody can park there except the owner (unless more than 2 dwellings are contained therein)

    #1551838

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    ubiquitin,
    You’re right about the second point, you’re wrong about the first.

    As iacisrmma points out, his neighbor got a permit to create a curbcut driveway the leads to his front yard, no garage or alley needed. I know of many houses in Brooklyn that have that same legal setup.

    #1551860

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Meno and Ubiq.: From a statutory analysis standpoint your interpretation of “fixed obstruction” is ludicrous. A lawn is not a fixed obstruction by any reasonable interpretation.

    Further, while an approved permit is likely, on it’s own, a sufficient reason to assume a “driveway” is “authorized pursuant to applicable law” it is not the only “applicable law” which is relevant. Thus technically, even with a permit, a driveway can be unlawful, and even without a permit a driveway can likely be lawful. Property law is complex, and simplistic statements as to the lawfullness of driveways do not appear to be accurate.
    Towing or a ticket can occur if the relevant authorized party has a reasonable basis to believe that 408f2 was violated – even if it was not. Thus, parking in front of any curb cut should likely be avoided if possible and may result in annoyance or worse. That is my opinion, which is supported by a reasonable interpretation of the relevant municipal code and rules.

    #1551901

    kollelman
    Participant

    Personally, I wonder why an illegal driveway wouldn’t constitute gezel de’rabim (stealing from the public). Imagine how many people spend time looking for a spot and miss davening, or learning due to the illegal removal of a public street parking spot.

    #1551876

    Joseph
    Participant

    NYC ALJ’s in the TVB will dismiss any driveway blocking summons issued to a vehicle parked in front of an illegal driveway, upon receipt of documentation that it is an illegal driveway.

    #1551868

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    yitzcokm

    “As iacisrmma points out, his neighbor got a permit to create a curbcut driveway the leads to his front yard, ”

    I dont know the specifics involved. IF his front yard cannot accommodate “vehicular traffic” (definition of driveway) then it isnt a driveway and anyone can park there. It isnt automatically illegal to block a curbcut (though many cops don’t know this) See NYC.gov’s website regarding regarding T intersections.

    frumnotyeshivish
    “A lawn is not a fixed obstruction by any reasonable interpretation.”
    If it isnt then it isnt. Though if it cant accommodate cars then it is. also note the law says “and used by vehicular traffic” not “can be used”

    #1551969

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    ubiquitin,
    Yes, the yard can accommodate a car. It’s still a front yard, and it’s still legal.

    #1552156

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Yes, the yard can accommodate a car”

    Again if it can then it can. As I said I havent seen his yard.

    (Though worth noting, even if it CAN be used, arguably that isnt enough see the definition “and used by vehicular traffic to or from lands or buildings abutting a roadway” if it isn’t used (as evidenced by the beautifully manicured lawn then it isnt a driveway. Words have definitions “מַּעֲשָׂיו הָרָעִים” doesnt mean culture, “driveway” doesn’t mean lawn.)

    #1552176

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Many years ago I sat on a jury for a case in which a guy shot his neighbor over a parking space. The space was in front of a driveway that had been made unusable as such because a garage had been converted into living space. The prosecutor pointed out that because it was not longer possible to park in the driveway or use it to access the garage, the space in front of the former driveway was available to all.

    #1552260

    Joseph
    Participant

    YY: Did you convict or acquit?

    #1552283

    ah yid
    Participant

    I heard a choshen mishpat shiur the rov held that the person who makes the driveway has a big halacha problem. since the street and sidewalk technically belong to the city by making an illegel driveway you are preventing all others who are entitled to park there from parking. In nyc there is also a law that you are not allowed to save parking spaces. This comes up after a snow, there are people who feel if I dug out the spot then its mine. NYC law says it’s not yours. This would apply to an ilegal drive too.
    True story: I went to a friend to drop something off. As I was getting out of my car I saw a lady flag down a cop. she points to a car blocking her “driveway” ( it didn’t even look like a driveway). The cop wrote a ticket. I mentioned to my friend what I saw. The next day my friend tells me the rest of the story. That night he heard yelling and shouting. The owner of the car saw the ticket. He told the lady he was going to call 311. At the end they gave him money for the ticket.

    #1552629

    Dina d’malchusa dina applies to all laws that don’t force one to transgress halacha.

    I heard in a shiur from Rabbi Yisrael Reisman that this is not
    the case, although I don’t remember exactly what it applies to.

    #1552891

    Joseph
    Participant

    Dina DD only applies to taxation issues according to Rav Elyashiv. According to everyone it does not override the Halachas of Choshen Mishpat.

    #1552966

    icemelter
    Participant

    Isn’t it illegal to block your own driveway as well? Seems pretty ridiculous I think you need to get a permit to park on the street blocking your own legal driveway. Makes somewhat sense if you aren’t using your driveway why do you have one, but on the other hand it doesn’t make sense I mean what is it if you don’t park in your driveway then that mean noone can use the spot including yourself? Why not there’s no parking regardless of if someone is in the driveway or not so why is it an issue? I think traffic cops can time let you for it. I’m not sure if they only ticket if it’s pointed out or automatically if they see a car blocking a driveway.

    #1553326

    Participant
    Participant

    block illegal driveways from coming and deport those that already came unless it has children here.

    #1553334

    Meno
    Participant

    Isn’t it illegal to block your own driveway as well?

    No (at least not in NYC – see the law quoted above).

    #1553367

    apushatayid
    Participant

    For arguments sake. Let’s assume the answer is, “it’s muttar”. Should you? Just because you may, doesn’t mean you must.

    #1553385

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    To me there are two questions:

    1. Am I greatly inconveniencing a particular person for no justifiably important reason? If yes, don’t park. If no, then,

    2. How likely is it that there will be ramifications either legally (eg ticket or towing) or morally (eg chillul hashem or altercation). This is a hefsed aveira kineged schara type analysis.

    As a general rule, when in doubt, absent significant exigency, don’t park. My rule of thumb.

    #1553449

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Joseph, we found him guilty of assault, not guilty of attempted murder. I later found out that he received a prison sentence of a few years (I don’t remember the actual number since this was long ago).

    #1553467

    Joseph
    Participant

    For arguments sake. Let’s assume the answer is, “it’s muttar”. Should you? Just because you may, doesn’t mean you must.

    Why in this case not, any less than parking in any other public parking spot? An illegal driveway, by definition, is a public parking spot.

    Am I greatly inconveniencing a particular person for no justifiably important reason? If yes, don’t park.

    What if by ever parking in a public parking spot in front of someone’s home you greatly inconvenience him by forcing him to park in a public parking spot further from his home. Should you never park in any public spot in front of someone’s home? Why should it change if the homeowner created an illegal driveway out of the public parking spot in front of his home?

    #1553517

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “For arguments sake. Let’s assume the answer is, “it’s muttar”. Should you? Just because you may, doesn’t mean you must.”

    Well for arguments sake, yes you must.
    If we dont park there then this avaryan who stole a public parking spot might think he is entitled to it and establish some sort of “chazaka” We must park there to make it clear that this stolen spot is not his.

    #1553637

    The Other Person
    Participant

    Don’t, but you could.

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