- This topic has 21 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
My neighbor is sitting shiva. Is it proper for me as a female to go be menachem avel by him? I was just curious to get the CR’s opinion on this issue. Thanks!
Can you go with your husband or a close male relative?
If you have no one to go with you (male or female), I think the mitzvah of nichum aveilim, especially to one’s neighbor, is very choshuv. I would try to bring someone with me, if my husband were not available for some reason. You don’t have to stay for a long time, and you can watch to see that other people are going in, and immediately go in too, then leave when they do or sooner.
in addition to the answers above, i think it also depends on WHO you are visiting. Meaning- would the family themselves feel uncomfortable?
ex: possibly in a very yeshivish home, they wouldn’t feel comfortable unless you’re a relative.
Just go.
I would like to suggest that you call the home and say you’d like to be Menachem Ovol in person and when would be a good / appropriate time for you to drop by. In this way it leaves the decision open to your neighbor and his family.
If, and when you do go I would further suggest that you go, remain standing, say what you have to say plus the possuk and then leave. This is not a time to be too neighborly or personal as the man sitting shiva is in a vulnerable state therefore a little formality would go along way at this time
In my community, it is no big deal for a woman to be menachem avel to a man.
Being that you are asking the question, I am assuming in your community it is not really the norm. I would try to go during slow periods so as to not make the person uncomfortable and I would bring some food. Its a domestic display that would appear “more appropriate” to people.
“Just go”
For those who go to Shiva houses for their own benefit, this would be appropriate advice.
For those who go to a Shiva house for the mourner’s benefit, it would be appropriate to determine if the mourner would be comfortable with the visit.
I know you did not realize how this came out, onlyemes, but sensitivity is a prerequisite in a Shiva situation, of all times.
Having just dealt with this – Know before whom you stand and act accordingly.
If you cannot bring your husband or son – go – stay for just a few moments and if the avel is more Yeshivish in nature, he will appreciate the short visit and understand your short visit.
You’d be surprised by who or what brings comfort…
Go in. If it’s crowded, just say hamakom, and then go to where the female family members are (even if they’re not sitting, they are usually there – maybe in the kitchen, etc.)
If it’s not crowded, then stay and speak to the avel for a bit.
Go in. If it’s crowded, just say hamakom, and then go to where the female family members are (even if they’re not sitting, they are usually there – maybe in the kitchen, etc.)
If it’s not crowded, then stay and speak to the avel for a bit.
I was faced with exactly that issue recently. two brothers were sitting shiva for a parent, at the home of one of the brothers. My husband and I are friends with the OTHER brother and his wife. It would have made absolutely NO sense for me to sit and talk with the female members of the household who are not friends of mine, and to be honest, making such small talk seems inappropriate to me in a shiva house. I grant that is was an awkward shiva, but the mitzvah is to pay a shiva call respectfully, and my awkwardness would be of little consequence, if my presence is comforting to the aveil who IS my friend.It happened that my husband and son came with me, but it did not really alter the dynamics of the visit. I say just go, do the mitzvah, and be supportive of your neighbor.
This woman asking the question has received so many lumdishe hair splitting arm chair psychology pieces of advice, I wouldn’t be surprised if by now the shiva is over.
I suggested common sense. It’s your neighbor, they are sitting shiva , don’t agonize forever over it.
Just go.
As someone who has recently sat Shiva, I think the focus on “common sense” and not to bother “agnonizing over it” is abhorrent. A Shiva visit is not a social call. We don’t go because WE don’t want to do due diligence and “agonize”; it’s not about us. It’s about the mourner.
In certain circles, visits are not made to individuals of the opposite gender. In others, it is appreciated when the visitor (of opposite gender) says the Posuk but does not sit down. In yet others, a regular visit is perfectly fine. What counts is not the prevailing feelings of all and sundry, but those of the mourner. Will THIS mourner be thankful for such a visit? Will THIS mourner be uncomfortable to be visited by an individual of the opposite gender? All it takes is a simple phone call to another family member to find out. No more than three minutes of your time.
The holier-than-thou “just go” is all about the visitor. And of course, MY opinion. The only feeling that counts is that of the mourner.
Situations may be different at various times of the day.
If the room is crowded with men (without women), then say your hamakom on the way out and/or call the house and ask if you can prepare a meal for the availim.
If it is a yeshivishe crowd, do not go into the men – absolutely not – if you like, you can go to the women and ask to please pass on your feelings – if there is an attached doorpost, and you see the aveil is sitting by himself, you can stand at the door post and nod your head, and if he acknowledges you, you can say, Hamakom, and let him set the pace if he would feel right about you coming in while it is emptyish.
I had the same situation. My next door neighbors wife was niftar and I went to be menachem avel with out my husband and it was fine because we knew each other for many years and our families are very close, but if am not so close to the husband but I was friends with the nifteres I would send my husband.On the flip side I was sitting shiva for my mother and a single guy who was a ben bais in my house came to be menachem avel me, he did not sit down and stayed in the back and then went to find my husband.
I would go and if you walk in and feel uncomfortable just stay a few minutes and then leave.
Iv’e seen rabbanim be menachem women.
Is it assur for a woman to order a pound of salami from a man standing behind the counter at the deli? why is doing the mitzvah of nichum aveilim any different (I assume yichud is not an issue).
Bemused, I am sorry to hear of your recent loss. May you have many simchas in the coming years.
Are you aware of varying customs?
oomis,
Thank you. I wish I didn’t “know” so much about the topic. And thank you for taking the time to make that comment.
jphone,
I have seen many men come in and say the Posuk. However, one must know the mourner before paying a neighborly Shiva visit to someone of the opposite gender. There is a big difference between coming in after sitting with the men (or women) and saying the Posuk to the woman (or man), and coming in for a Shiva “visit”.
Furthermore, there is a difference between a Rav (or similar) coming in to console the mourner, even sitting down for a lengthier amount of time, and a neighbor or acquaintance of the opposite gender coming in. I’m sorry that I don’t have the right words to describe why this is so; this entire subject is getting to me in the wrong way, and I’m out of words. Perhaps someone else can do a better job of explaining this, or perhaps everyone will argue and say it isn’t so. Regardless, I would hope only those who have unfortunately experienced sitting Shiva, and live among circles in which gender is separation is the norm (I don’t mean impersonal purchases at the grocery counter) would comment one way or another on this particular question. The second criterion is not intended to be arbitrarily exclusive, but is simply a recognition of the psychological fact that those who don’t see any problem with personal intergender communication altogether will not be able to differentiate the subtle nuances here of whether or not its appropriate, just like I would not have the know-how to comment on any dynamic or appropriateness of interaction in the Satmar sector.
I still hope that potential Shiva visitors use sensitivity when determining whether to visit, regardless of the outcome of this thread.
For selfish reasons, it’s better for me if I don’t comment on this particular topic anymore, so if I don’t answer someone, please don’t be offended.
bemused:
once again you demonstrate your grasp of an issue, encompassed within the Holy Mesorah
Minhug khalacha.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.