July 10, 2013 2:55 am at 2:55 am #964821Sam2Participant
Curiosity: If that is the case, that there is no objective measure of Muttar or Assur here as is befitting a Ben Torah (e.g. Shabbos 114a) then shouldn’t it stand to reason that this is an entirely social point? If you are somewhere where no one would even give a second look at the most venerable of people drinking from a water fountain then shouldn’t there be no issue here? Which, I don’t think is too much to presume, is the case in the vast majority of places today.July 10, 2013 2:57 am at 2:57 am #964822Sam2Participant
Curiosity: If that is the case, that there is no objective measure of Muttar or Assur here as is befitting a Ben Torah (e.g. Shabbos 114a) then shouldn’t it stand to reason that this is an entirely social point? If you are somewhere where no one would even give a second look at the most venerable of people drinking from a water fountain then shouldn’t there be no issue here? Which, I don’t think is too much to presume, is the case in the vast majority of places today.July 10, 2013 3:05 am at 3:05 am #964823VogueMember
#1 Rated most awkward thread everJuly 10, 2013 3:31 am at 3:31 am #964824WIYMember
I hope nobody suffers dehydration due to this thread…July 10, 2013 4:09 am at 4:09 am #964825CuriosityParticipant
Sam2, I guess it would depend who you view the purpose of acting refined is for. Some people may not give a second look if a chashuv ben Torah is or not wearing his hat outside, especially in “out of town” type places, but that doesn’t make it okay for a chashuv ben Torah to do. I think it’s an issue of how much appreciation the ben Torah has for his own dignity, rather than caring about how other people view his dignity. Meaning, let’s say theoretically you granted that it was beneath his dignity to drink directly from a fountain; I presume you would not say that if he went to visit a third world country where it was an acceptable norm that he should therefore be lax on his own personal standards. I, for one, cannot picture the Queen of England or even the Pope drinking from a water fountain.July 10, 2013 9:42 am at 9:42 am #964826just my hapenceParticipant
Curiosity – 1. Forgive me but if it is the bending that’s undignified then the dimyon to horses doesn’t work. Horses can’t bend down as they don’t stand upright. They drink by lowering their head, by partially kneeling so that the front of their bodies is lower than the back or by kneeling fully to bring their head to the water level. I therefore assumed that the dimyon to horses was to the manner in which they drink, i.e. lapping. This is also the way one drinks from a water fountain, and the manner of drinking of the soldiers who were kept (regardless of whether they were sitting, standing, bending, lying down or jumping around no-one disputes the lapping). This also answers your fourth point.
2. Don’t tell me what I am and aren’t expecting to do. What I was doing was pointing out the difficulties, which, unless you believe it’s assur to ask kashas on a shitta you don’t understand, is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Given the difficulties, and given that it’s a da’as yochid that all the other mefarshim disagree with, forgive me for learning like the other mefarshim. Furthermore, if you have answers, please provide them. Don’t just sit there like a 4-year-old saying “I do know, but I’m not telling…”
3. The only reason that the Mahari Kara talks about those standing is because he has to create a 3rd group given as he can’t have the 1st group being chosen as he believes that they too knelt. He is therefore forced to create a 3rd group which he says “could have drunk standing”. None of the other mefarshim have his problem, none have any more than 2 groups – those that knelt and those that lapped – and therefore none learn like the Mahari Kara. Nowhere are any of them mashma, like you claim, farkert. The Ralbag, as pointed out, says b’feirush that they were chosen as lapping from the river showed their fearlessness. The Minchas Shai has 2 groups, those that knelt and drank from the river directly and those that drank from their hands (he is medayek “min hamayim” as opposed to “al hamayim”), which seems to indicate that this was the only difference between the two groups, mashmaus is that those that drank from their hands also knelt (in other words the kneeling was not indicative of avodah zorah, the manner of their lapping showed whether they had discipline, though both still lapped).July 10, 2013 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #964827CuriosityParticipant
Oh no. You’re right! How could I ever think to argue with somebody who is an expert in fluid dynamics and equine anatomy?! All this time in yeshiva, and I still can’t read a single mefaresh properly! It’s not even like I memorized Nach, so I’m basically just a waste of flesh and bone. I’ll go jump off the nearest bridge now because there’s no point for me to live any more. If I had cookies, jmh, I would for sure give you all of them!! 😀July 10, 2013 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #964828just my hapenceParticipant
Curiosity – And there it is again, sarcasm masking the fact that you’re avoiding answering my questions. It’s not fooling anyone you know…
I will take up your offer of biscuits (as they’re properly called) though.July 11, 2013 12:54 am at 12:54 am #964829always runs with scissors fastParticipant
where is poppabar abba and cookie and all my favorite old friends?
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