September 21, 2008 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #588300sambamMember
should weddings be regulated by rabbanim, or should everyone just learn to live within their means without the need to show off what they don’t have? The world has always had its rich and poor….why should today be any different?September 21, 2008 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #623096Give Me a BreakMember
Answer to your title – no.September 21, 2008 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #623097BuzBuzParticipant
Yes. This is why we have rabonim. To guide us in the right way. How many stories are there of people spending way beyond their means ? Some times they do not have a choice. Some times “the other side” demands it. If families were able to fall back on a taknah it will help klal yisroel as a whole.September 22, 2008 12:11 am at 12:11 am #623098mdlevineMember
If the Gedolim feel that it is appropriate to have takanos, the answer is a resounding YES.September 22, 2008 1:11 am at 1:11 am #623099oomisParticipant
I have mixed feelings about this. I don’t have a great deal of money, but I don’t feel it is my place or anyone else’s to tell someone else how to spend his. Yes, people get way too frivolous at times, and spend conspicuously, but as long as these same people are giving their maaser money to Tzedaka with the same open hand as they spend it on their simchas, then I have no reason to be critical of them. We cannot all be equal financially, and I think it is wrong to try to tell someone who can afford certain things, not to use his money to buy them. Then again, I feel uncomfortable with sometimes feeling as though we need to “keep up with the Goldbergs,” when many of us clearly cannot. I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle, and maybe in Kallah classes, and even starting early in Yeshivah, priorities should be taught to be less grandiose. Just my opinion…September 22, 2008 2:50 am at 2:50 am #623100
mdlevine, beautifully said.September 22, 2008 3:00 am at 3:00 am #623101yossieaParticipant
People need to learn responsibility. All these constant takanahs are taking away personal choice.
Furthermore, if the rabbonim were serious about this, they would follow it as well.September 22, 2008 3:13 am at 3:13 am #623102just meParticipant
Unfortunatally, the takonos are only as effective as the rabbis who really stick to them. How many rabbis still go to the simchos of their rich balbatim who don’t stick to the takanos?
I DO think the takanos are a good idea because then peole who can’t afford it, can have a simpler wedding without having to admit to having money problems. They can always say that they are tzadikim and following the takanos. The takanos gives people a way to save face.
Personally, I think it is obserd to spend a fortune for 6 hours. I truly don’t understand ice carvingsSeptember 22, 2008 4:40 am at 4:40 am #623103
To answer your question, Noooooooooo! Loy mit an aleph!!!
Maybe we should have rabbonim make Takanos for people who eat too much?
If parents are not mature enough to know how to spend within their means
they shouldn’t be parents.September 22, 2008 8:21 am at 8:21 am #623104Geordie613Participant
answer to Yossiea: The Gerrer Rebbe, The Lev Simcha ZY”A made takonos for weddings many years ago. One of them is that one may only invite 400 (I forget exactly the number) guests for the actual meal. To this day, even the biggest Gerrer Rebbishe Chasuna will only have 400 guests for the actual seudoh. (There is also the famous Spodik story, but let’s not go off the topic)September 22, 2008 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #623105tzippiMember
Takanos aren’t a 20/21st century invention in the Jewish experience, you know. We’ve had them before.September 22, 2008 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #623106rabbiofberlinParticipant
This whole takonoh business reminds me of the plaintive request of the obese..Please,please, stop me eating!
Come on, if parents cannot control their own stupidity or think they must keep up with the “Kleins” , why should a Rov make a takonoh that will not even be respected?? Next thing and we will have a takonoh about wha twe can or cannot wear..oops, this takomoh already exists!September 22, 2008 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #623107namelessMember
Very well said! However, if the Gedolim make these takonos and STILL attend weddings even if those takonos are not implemented, doenst that send mixed signals and confuse people?September 22, 2008 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #623108SJSinNYCMember
In my humble opinion, the answer is no.
Why are we trying to put a bandaid on the problem, instead of SOLVING the problem? I see the problem as twofold:
1) People who cannot afford expensive weddings but spend the money anyway
2) People who can afford the expensive weddings, but do so in a gluttonous manner
I think #2 is more rare (how many of us can afford weddings of that ilk?) so I will address #1.
If you cannot afford the expensive wedding DO NOT SPEND MONEY YOU DO NOT HAVE. This is a very american concept of “keeping up with the Jones.” I dont understand why we cannot educate our people to be able to live within their means. Its one thing to use money for the sake of a mitzvah, but its another to use that as an excuse to spend outrageous amounts of money.
I’ve heard people say things like “But how can I disappoint my child?” or “How can I give my child less than what everyone else has?” This makes no sense to me – you are sending your child off to get married, and start a home of their own with their own responsibilities but you cannot explain to them that you cannot afford a lavish affair? Kids need to understand that money doesnt grow on trees and that you need to live within your means.
Also, lets examine (arbitrary) takanos. So lets say 400 people max for the seudah – for some people, thats plenty and for others, its nothing! Case in point – my friend’s parents are each one of 10 and each of their 10 siblings averages 10 kids. Thats 100 first cousins on each side, plus 40 for the aunts and uncles (and then 2 parents from each side). And many of her first cousins have kids – so lets add another 30 for those. Now you are at 270 for her side, without a single friend or non-immediate family member. If she marries someone in a similiar situation, thats Thats 548 people without a single friend.
Now, take someone whos parents have 2 siblings each and each of them have 3 kids. Thats 12 first cousins plus 8 aunts and uncles and 4 grandparents. Thats 24 people per side. They have plenty left over for inviting other family and friends.
So does 400 people make sense?
Why do we expect people to be able to keep shabbos by themselves or keep kosher, but “we” have to step in and curb their spending if they cannot afford it? I think if people stopped spending so much money on weddings, others (who also cannot afford it, or barely can) would stop also. The “Jones” would turn into 1-2 families rather than the entire community.
Also, there are ways to pare down your spending without compromising the quality of the wedding. At my wedding, we didnt have floral centerpieces because we were working on a limited budget and that was an easy way to save a few thousand dollars. No one missed them at all. In fact, when my friend got married, she asked for my florist because she loved the flowers at my wedding. We got beautiful flowers for me (the bride), all my bridesmaids, and the chupah. We cut out where it wasnt neccesary.
OK this has become a megillah!!September 22, 2008 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #623109LeiderLeider…Participant
I don’t understand the question.
This is not a Takona per-se. They offer the takonas as guidelines for their community. The Rabbis postulate that they will not attend a simcha that doesn’t meet their criteria. I don’t believe that they’re attempting to impose their criteria on anyone.
Whether they break their own Takona’s is a different matter entirely, and is not the subject of this thread.September 22, 2008 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #623110
Aaron Chaim: the differance witht he gerrer rebbes takonos were that it applies only to gerrer chassidim. takanos made “chareidi” wide dont work. not before, not now, not ever.September 23, 2008 6:04 am at 6:04 am #623111RBS_gimmelParticipant
Hey raboisay, there are plenty of takanos in Chazal about this exact thing: Rabban Gamliel made a takana that even the wealthy should make inexpensive levayos, etc. – all for the purpose of not embarassing those who don’t have.September 23, 2008 6:17 am at 6:17 am #623112
Bein Hasedorim should spend one Bein Hasedorim learning a beautiful ‘shtikel’ in the Pelle Yoetz (not a 21st century gadol!). He was a strong proponent of takanos. Even in those days it was a problem. After learning it, let me see if you feel the same way.September 23, 2008 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #623113cantoresqMember
From a perspective of pure Halacha, I’m not sure any rabbi or group of rabbis has the authority to issue takkanot, at least no binding ones. There is no institutionalized Beth Din to allow for such a mechanism. As such, any “takanot” issued are at best suggestions to be voluntarily followed or not.September 23, 2008 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #623114
kitzur_dot_net: you are correct about rabban gamliel, except two things. one he was a nassi, and had the power to issue takanos. and two, in that takana he was issuing, it was for kavod hames, something that is considered more importatnt then kavod hachayim. it was not made for teh serviving family, but for the actual person being eulogized.
also, if he is to be your source for issuing takkonos, are you aware that the wealthy of his day made weddiong that lasted days. and the poor just had a minyan. so i will take your proof and say that it is clear from rabban gamliel that one may NOT issue takanos for chasunas.September 24, 2008 4:47 am at 4:47 am #623115
REALIST: I have my opinions, Af Al Pi Kain,
but i will take a look before i reply.September 25, 2008 3:46 am at 3:46 am #623116
If I can find exactly where it is, I’ll post it for you.
Secondly, when I was planning my daughter’s chasuna, I had the Novominsker Rebbe in my car and discussed the inyan. I mentioned to him this Pela Yoetz also.
He strongly encouraged me to make the wedding within the ‘takana guidelines’, and I will be ‘M’KADESH SHEM SHAMAYIM B’RABIM’.
To which I rep[lied, “Maskim, but it wont be ‘B’rabim!”.September 25, 2008 6:22 am at 6:22 am #623117
REALIST: if you find it let me know.
To clarify my opinion, It’s not the Takanos, that i’m against
(see original post) it’s.. should they make them for this type of thing.
Today is different then Amol B”H
(in some cases that might sound wrong)
however every simcha today, even by the poorest of us there is
nice bilkalach for all, FurShpiez, NochShpiez, MittelShpiez,
chairs to sit on, tablecloths cutlery, sodas, music, be it a one-manband
or cd playing(i’ve actually been to a Chasunah like that)
who cares which hall? or how fancy?
Ice sculptures? waterfalls? Gevald!!!
Today all our simchas are made Batampt.
not like Amol where there was a huge difference
& people could feel ashamed.
We seems childish when such a Takanoh is actually made,
we’re talking about basic maturity, is our tzibur so immature?
that takanos have to be made on the most common sense things.
If this is ok, then they should make a takanah
that immature people shouldn’t get married!September 25, 2008 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #623118feivelParticipant
how can anyone here answer such a question that shouldnt even be asked.
but if you ask it then ask it it one who is qualified to answer, a Godol.September 25, 2008 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #623119oomisParticipant
” I don’t believe that they’re attempting to impose their criteria on anyone.”
But is that not precisely what they are doing? If a rov whom you respect says he won’t come to your simcha unless you do x,y, and z, what does that mean to you? Sometimes that kind of measure, though drastic, is necessary for the greater good,but it still is somewhat intimidating, would you not agree?September 26, 2008 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #623120squeakParticipant
“From a perspective of pure Halacha, I’m not sure any rabbi or group of rabbis has the authority to issue takkanot, at least no binding ones. There is no institutionalized Beth Din to allow for such a mechanism. As such, any “takanot” issued are at best suggestions to be voluntarily followed or not.”
No one can tell YOU what to do. Is that right?September 28, 2008 12:49 am at 12:49 am #623121
squeak: no squek, that is not what cantoresq meant. what he meant, that al pi halacha, which i am assuming, as does he, is what you follow, they dont have any grounds to make one. takanos need to be made by a nasi or av beis din. that power was given over to chief rabbis in europe. nowadays every 10 golems create a shul and make a rabbi. no one agrees on anything. to you the moetzes is all binding, but to yenim, it is the rca, young israel board of rabbis or ou. yes, if all these groups were to get together and make the takanos, i think then it would be halachically binding, as almost no one can get out of it.September 28, 2008 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #623122000646Participant
How do we determine who is a gadol?September 29, 2008 12:12 am at 12:12 am #623123
ooo646: i was always told it was a male over 13, and a female over 12. but maybe you mean hight, so i would say gadol is over six feet. under that is just regular.October 20, 2008 5:12 am at 5:12 am #623124
att: bein_hasdorim wrote: REALIST: if you find it let me know.
Sorry it took me soooo long.
It is found at the end of the sefer ‘Pele Yoetz’ UNDER ‘TIKUN’.
PLEASE GO THRU IT AND LET ME KNOW IF IT SOFTENS YOUR POSITION A BIT.
A GIT KVITTEL
A GIT YOM TOV
A GIT YUHR
REALISTOctober 23, 2008 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #623125
Allow, and trust, the Rabbonim to make the call when takanos are (or are not) necessary.October 27, 2008 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #623127enlightenedjewMember
No. Not takanos in the traditional sense. Rabbanim can say what they want, and express da’as Torah opinion and concern. But the idea of trying to regulate one’s way out of a problem is always a bad idea. The flip side of the issue should not be ignored – people need to learn to have less kin’ah to what “the Joneses” are doing and be responsible and make weddings they can afford!!October 27, 2008 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #623128000646Participant
Who are “THE rabbonim” does this term only include bnei brak rabbonim, black hat rabbonim, modern orththodox rabbonim, syrian rabonnim, morrocon rabonnim, persian rabbonim, taymoni rabbonim, chassideshe rebbes ect. ect. does the term “THE RABBONIM” mean that if any of these rabbonim say somthing all of klall yisroel should follow whatever takonos they make for there communitys? please clarify. Thank you.October 27, 2008 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #623129
All of the above.
And everyone should follow all of their Rabbonim’s takanos. (i.e. the Syrian community should follow the Syrian Rabbonim, etc.)October 27, 2008 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #623130
000646: what you dont undersatnd is that certain people who say terms like “the rabbonim” and “gedolim” only mean thos aspousing their line of thinking. any other rov who doesnt fit into their daled amos of judaism is not only not part of this “league of rabbonim” (similar to the justice league, you just some how get super powers, and your in!) but is deemed a mishugenah, am haaretz, or some other nonsense. the term daas torah is a new invention. daas torah means absolutely nothing. it is a platitude. it attempts to give legitimacy to the illegitimate. the idea that one is to follow some group of rabbonim is absurd. one is to follow his rov. if ones rov decides to acquiesce to the general rabbinic perception of a halachah in the said generation, then it is that rov’s prerogative. we no longer have a av bes din and a reish galusa to mandate halacha.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.