July 23, 2012 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #604235
the happy oneMember
i always wondered if there is a makor for thisJuly 23, 2012 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #888512
igros yd 4,11July 23, 2012 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #888513
Nothing inherently wrong with it…just consider this:
1. Totally not tzinus women everywhere.
2. Complete waste of time
3. Complete waste of money
4. If you really think about it (and I mean NOOOOO offence to anyone) but the core reason of why people like sports is because they want to be part of a winning team. Why do people need to feel that? Because they’re losers in the parts of their life where they feel they should be winners. For example, you know you need to keep shabbos but you don’t. And if your team lost, well no worries at least there are thousands of others who feel let down so you’re “not alone”. It’s like taking a test in school, when you see you failed you feel horrible. But when you find out that everyone else failed you don’t feel as bad. But the reality is that you still failed….just because everyone else did shouldn’t make you feel better.July 23, 2012 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #888514
its actually a rashi mifureshes on the passuk of ubichukosaihem lo seileichu. a”s.July 23, 2012 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #888515
but i thought there was a rabbi if im not mistaken the rav of the mir in yershalyim did once ask abt a game? so then why is it assur?July 23, 2012 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #888516
There are many rabbonim who say it’s muttar to go to games. I got an heter to go from a few rabbonim.July 23, 2012 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #888517
As if people ask for a heter before heading to the stadium…
They do what they want.July 23, 2012 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #888518
I have boys and they love ball games. When I went to a cyclones game in Brooklyn I was very upset when I saw their cheerleaders who are all over the stands constantly. It’s a problem but how can you tell sons they can never go to a game they love?July 23, 2012 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #888519
@bustercrown A jew is required to guard his eyes, you are not allowed to look at immodest women. Granted today this is near impossible because women all over the streets don’t care. But at the very least you could try avoiding places where they purposely dress practically naked and show off their bodies. Cheerleading has only one purpose, show off a bunch of naked girls and it gets everyone pumped. I mean c’mon tell your kids that you decided their soul is more important than a sports game?July 24, 2012 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #888520
and if they love pork? or looking at the cheerleaders? how can you deny them the things they love. great point.July 24, 2012 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #888521
There are no cheerleaders in Baseball games and the Football Giants dont have them either (The Jets and Knicks do)July 24, 2012 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #888522
There is widespread nivel peh and pritzus in the stands at baseball, football and other games.July 24, 2012 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #888523
Why not ban riding the subway in the summer too, there is Prizut, Nevel Peh (Especially when the train is stopped and the AC shuts off for a min) , The Subway Preacher (And when you get one of those its in a crowded train and you aint moving)
There is many times Kol Eisha (Ever see a Subway “performer”)July 24, 2012 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #888524
The questions isn’t about a game, it’s really how you define “wrong”. Going to a game isn’t wrong per say, however it’s not exactly the “best” thing either”. It’s one of those “gray areas” that we put on the “there’s nothing wrong with it, or whats wrong with going to a game” list.
That being said, the fact that there is Kosher food, “minyanim”, etc etc at games does NOT make it a Jewish event or “muttar”. I have davened at these “minyanim” and it’s a complete joke. Try davening while people walk past you half dressed, drunk and yelling. Or try davening while a great play happens and the crowd erupts cheering.
Again – everyone has to do what he/she feel is right, including to define the word “wrong”.July 24, 2012 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #888525
Since when are there grey areas in Judaism. Theres assur or mutar. A sports game bizman hazeh with all the pritzus, non Jewish music and drunk fans screaming expletives is assur gammur. Of course theres also the issur deoraysoh of chukas hagoy.July 24, 2012 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #888526
A person must go to work to feed their family. However you are correct. One who has no need to go to Manhattan but does so anyways just to “hang out in Manhattan” or whatever and boards a train to do so is likely oiver on some issurim for both what he sees and hears on the train and in Manhattan.
Sadly many people dont know what you are talking about when you mention Kedusha, Tehara, Prishus….July 25, 2012 10:21 am at 10:21 am #888527
zdad- i know how you love to make the dumbest tzushtells in the world, but just give up already. a person attending an event for enjoyment should reconsider attending if he will unquestionably be oiver issurim, whereas a man going to work is michuyav to do so in order to support his family. if he encounters bad things while tryig, he should attempt to be omed b’nisayon.July 25, 2012 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #888528
Bava Basra 57b, if I recall correctly.July 25, 2012 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #888529
Bustercrown, how can you to tell a baal teshuva not to eat a Cheese Burger that they loved. What a dumb attidude. If its wrong you dont let them go. Even if they love it.July 25, 2012 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #888530
there is a tshuva from reb moshe about going to sports events. he says its an issur doiraysah and there are 3 lavim including pritzus and chukas hagoyimJuly 25, 2012 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #888531
many yeshivas (Like Chofetz Chaim ) that have chinese auctions , and at these chinese auctions they give away tickets to sports games.
It would be completely assur to raise money in this fashion if the game was assur.
I do not see the same yeshivas give away McDonalds Gift cards for exampleJuly 25, 2012 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #888532
My kids also go to Charedi Day Camps and they have gone on trips Citifield, Yankee Stadium and MCU Stadium (Brooklyn Cyclones)
And some of the male counselors are above 13 who chapperone the kidsJuly 25, 2012 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #888533
Git you have every right to disagree with a poster if you find their views are wrong but you dont have a right to call that poster dumb, over the line.July 25, 2012 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #888534
I don’t think you ever saw the Teshuva from R. Moshe Feinstein because I once heard Rav Shlomo Pearl say @ a shiur that according to Igras Moshe games are only Ossur because of Bittul Torah & nothing else.July 25, 2012 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #888535
The tshuva isnt in igros moshe. its in a sefer put out recently of his tshuvas that weren’t published. the 3rd reason he says is because of “moshav leitzim”July 25, 2012 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #888536July 25, 2012 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #888537
If you’re a guy, it’s assur not to go to sport game. Why would you deprive yourself from kosher fun?July 26, 2012 12:55 am at 12:55 am #888538
kfb go ahead argue on reb mosheJuly 26, 2012 1:24 am at 1:24 am #888539
Chacham: Arguments on R’ Moshe are quite foolish. But it’s not ridiculous to argue that we can’t trust that that’s R’ Moshe.July 26, 2012 1:42 am at 1:42 am #888540
Is better to go to a FEW ballgames a year OR waste your WHOLE year in the YWN Cofferoom dicussing this silly topic and 78 other variations of solving the Shidduch Crisis?
Whats “muttar”/good about the CR?July 26, 2012 2:01 am at 2:01 am #888541
The CR doesn’t have the pritzus and nivel peh.July 26, 2012 2:16 am at 2:16 am #888542
sam do you mean because of chelek 8?July 26, 2012 2:30 am at 2:30 am #888543
Chacham: Chelek 8 had enough controversy about it. Kal V’chomer Chelek 9.July 26, 2012 2:45 am at 2:45 am #888544
Sam2 ON this inyan it is yadua that this is reb moshes opinion and his talmidim say it over also,July 26, 2012 4:25 am at 4:25 am #888545
Chacham: That could be. I will admit there are many “Yadua” opinions of R’ Moshe that I am unfamiliar with. But I do take anything from the last two Chalakim with a grain of salt. I respect it so long as there is no good reason to say otherwise, but I certainly don’t feel M’shubad to it the way I do to the first 7 Chalakim. (I have at different times called someone who would argue with R’ Moshe’s P’sakim L’ma’aseh (in America, at least; not necessarily in Eretz Yisrael) a Zaken Mamrei or a Mored B’malchus. But I only say that on the first 7 Chalakim.)July 26, 2012 6:48 am at 6:48 am #888546
Of course it’s wrong. The question is if it’s assur.July 26, 2012 10:58 am at 10:58 am #888547
Sam: I take it that you do not use a Shabbos Clock on an air conditioner, per Rav Moshe’s psak? And you hold anyone who argues on that is a Zaken Mamrei or a Mored B’malchus?
(Not that anyone argues on the issur of going to a sports game. Just as a general point.)July 26, 2012 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #888548
csar – I think sam is reffering to small rabbonim in this dor arguing on reb moshe.( ie the eruv)July 26, 2012 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #888550
Csar: I almost parenthetically added the words “with very select exceptions where the Tzibbur was not Noheg like him”. But even then, it’s clear that he was against Shabbos clocks L’migdar Milsa, and not from straight Halachah. Thus, using on an air conditioner or even anything else in the house doesn’t violate his P’sak the same way doing something that is actually Assur would.July 26, 2012 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #888551
“Totally not tzinus women everywhere.”
I believe that this is the biggest problem with going to a sports game. If a man goes to a stadium during the summer, he will see things that he absolutely may not be seeing.
“the core reason of why people like sports is because they want to be part of a winning team. Why do people need to feel that? Because they’re losers in the parts of their life where they feel they should be winners.”
I don’t believe that’s true at all. Everyone enjoys winning.
“its actually a rashi mifureshes on the passuk of ubichukosaihem lo seileichu. a”s.”
True, Rashi does say it is assur to go to a stadium. But you have to realize, the program in the stadiums then quite literally consisted of giluy arayos, shvichas dumim, and avodah zarah. Today its just some ball.
“Why not ban riding the subway in the summer too, there is Prizut”
If it can be avoided, by all means stay away from it.
Petty insults have no place here. Or anywhere, for that matter.
All you’ve done is prove that people do go to ball games, not that it’s okay to do so.
“(I have at different times called someone who would argue with R’ Moshe’s P’sakim L’ma’aseh (in America, at least; not necessarily in Eretz Yisrael) a Zaken Mamrei or a Mored B’malchus.”
Didn’t R’ Moshe hold it was assur to listen to music?July 26, 2012 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #888552
I started seeing CR in Yeshiva World news last week. I don’t see why this is any better then a sports game. It is also a big waste of time with a bunch of people who are not talmidei chachamim without daas torah writing their own opinions and bashing erliche yidden. as far as pritzes their are a lot of people defending these flatbush women who don’t dress tzniusdik. Don’t you all have something better to do like maybe go open up a sefer and learn a bisel Torah.July 26, 2012 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #888553
Rav Shteinman Paskened that it is Assur to play sports, let alone go to a game.July 26, 2012 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #888554
Sam where do you get it from that America has to follow Rav Moshe’s Psak? Didnt you yourself say that sometimes the Tzibbur is clearly not noiheg like him? What would determine that if not for not following his Psak from the get go? And there are plenty of reliable Achronim who preceded that argue with Rav Moshe sometimes.July 26, 2012 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #888555
It should be noted no one argues on Rav Moshe regarding sports.July 26, 2012 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #888556
mw13: Yes. Yes he does.
Kozov: It is precisely because he was accepted that we have to listen to him. It’s kind of circular when you think about it, but not quite. He was recognized as the undisputed Posek Hador, and therefore we were Meshabed ourselves (yes, even those of us who weren’t born until after he passed away) to every P’sak of his. Cases where he was ignored are tough to deal with, though it should be noted that people were Noheg to use Shabbos clocks before everyone started listening to him (and before he Assered them), which is probably an important factor.July 26, 2012 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #888557
on the ballParticipant
“True, Rashi does say it is assur to go to a stadium. But you have to realize, the program in the stadiums then quite literally consisted of giluy arayos, shvichas dumim, and avodah zarah. Today its just some ball.”
No, please don’t krum op that Rashi. He clearly means partaking in non-Jewish entertainment and sports irrespective of what it entails. If it contained A’Z and Gilui Arayos it would anyway be Asur.July 26, 2012 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #888558
on the ball: I don’t think so. The Chiluk is obvious. The Gemara has very harsh words for those who attend stadiums because that’s what attending a stadium entailed back then. It’s clearly not what it entails now. You are the one reading something into Rashi that isn’t obvious (that he is including even something that didn’t exist back in his time). It could be that Chazal would have included today’s sports in that. But the Chiluk to say that they would not be included is obviously there. It didn’t exist, so we honestly have no idea if Chazal included it or not. Saying that Rashi clearly includes it is just as not-Muchrach as saying he clearly excludes it.July 26, 2012 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #888559
mw13- i will pettily insult whomever i pleaseJuly 26, 2012 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #888560
on the ballParticipant
Sam2: Yes there is a chiluk. But without a halachic source, it is not a ‘mechalek’. You must admit that it is at least very possible that Rashi (from Chazal) meant any form of non-Jewish entertainment even non-violent and non-salacious ones. Ergo, you have no right to create an arbitrary limitation on his words just because you can identify a difference.
Doing just that with no halachic backing is a slippery slope that can eventually lead to the Reform idealogy of rejecting any halachah that has no clear modern rationale – Rachmana Litzlan.July 26, 2012 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #888561
Here’s one thing I’ve never understood and have brought it up to many people who agree with me. Why do so many frum people take their kids to baseball games, in the middle of the summer, to sit amongst the goyim that are drinking beer, cheering on their team, cursing, women wearing low cut shirts, etc. and are fine with that, but make it completely assur to go to watch a movie, in a dark movie theater, with no interaction with the goyim around you?? Why is that a problem?? Let’s say your only going to watch a PG movie…
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