May 15, 2011 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #768184
So, who will start the thread titled “is it tznius to come late or talk during davening” as requested. I’m not sure how to start a new thread.May 15, 2011 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #768185
apy: There are many existing such threads already, discussing those issues.May 15, 2011 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #768186☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I’m not sure how to start a new thread.May 15, 2011 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #768187
Pacman. And what was the consensus, it it tznius or not to come late to shul? What about applesauce? Tznius or not?May 15, 2011 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #768188
depends how high the mechizta isMay 15, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #768189
The consensus was that it is very easy to engage in letzanus on a halachic issue that makes one uncomfortable.May 15, 2011 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #768190
booya! well said pac-manMay 15, 2011 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #768191brotherofursParticipant
so what age should girls begin to wear make-up?May 15, 2011 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #768192shlishiMember
When she enters into shidduchim.May 15, 2011 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #768193
as soon as every girl here who wears makeup will avoid the uncomfortable confrontation of whether or not it’s actually halachikally permissible.May 15, 2011 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #768194
“The consensus was that it is very easy to engage in letzanus on a halachic issue that makes one uncomfortable.”
I readily admit I would be VERY uncomfortable to go out in public wearing makeup.May 15, 2011 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #768195
If there is any laitzanus, it is directed at the notion that “makeup” is inherently not tznius. Remember what the kiyor was made from.May 15, 2011 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #768196
I’m all for intelligent discussion, but many of the responses have been “It just is and who are you to question me!?”
I believe everyone agrees with the premise concerning tznius, that it is an attitude/spirit of the law as well as covering the knees and elbows…
With all of that said, it seems, at least to me, there is some explanation required. More than just “Women need to feel beautiful”… Halacha sometimes goes against our human urgesMay 16, 2011 12:16 am at 12:16 am #768197
A group of people who feel a certain way about something, do not determine halacha. Make up is not inherently tznius, nor is its use by those not in shidduchim. Being in shidduchim does not automatically confer tznius status on all applications and uses either.
If the above is wrong, please name a posek who said so.May 16, 2011 12:29 am at 12:29 am #768198Rabbi Dr. Avi CohenMember
“If the above is wrong, please name a posek who said so.”
One, amongst several, that immediately comes to mind is Tanchuma Vayishlach Piskah 5. To quote:
Makeup and perfume is intended to beautify a wife for her husband, beyond this it should be used scarcely if at all.May 16, 2011 1:09 am at 1:09 am #768199
apy… reread your post… I think you meant to say something different. If not, I’m not sure what you’re saying, please rephrase.May 16, 2011 2:48 am at 2:48 am #768201
I know what I meant to write, still do.
But, here is take 2.
Makeup is not inherently “untsnius”.May 16, 2011 3:15 am at 3:15 am #768202
I will look into the tanchuma, bli neder, tomorrow morning when I get to shul. I don’t own a medrash tanchuma at home. In the meantime, this tanchuma is brought lihalacha, where?May 16, 2011 3:23 am at 3:23 am #768203
I will look into the tanchuma, bli neder, tomorrow morning when I get to shul. I don’t own a medrash tanchuma at home. In the meantime, this tanchuma is brought lihalacha, where?May 16, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #768204yeshivabochur123Participant
Forgive me for being naive but why should girls be allowed to wear makeup in shidduchim anyways? L’masseh they all do and it seems that the frummer they are the more makeup they tend to wear but the torah says that a woman should look good for her husband and not other men. If you say it should be muttar because they are potentially going to get married while that is true the chances are not in their favor as evidenced by the large shidduch crisis and even so if the shidduch worked out it might be a mitzvah haba baverah because the makeup was gorem the shidduch. if the makeup is not gorem the shidduch or doesn’t help then why wear it at all?May 16, 2011 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #768205ZeesKiteParticipant
Let me attempt to answer your very valid question. I think it’s the same ‘heter’ as the boy, who learns ‘lishmah’ (mapik hey – for HER sake), even though chances are it could be gorem…May 16, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #768206
pac-man states that the woman should dress to her husband’s likes in the house and b’tuah outside the house. if that is true, why is it that many to most wowen would not be caught dead outside without a sheitel (which in many cases is anything but tzuisdig) and find no problem with putting on a snood (which we know is not as flattering) as soon as she comes home?! it would seem to me that the opposite should be the norm.May 16, 2011 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #768207
So, you are interpreting tachshitin as makeup?May 16, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #768208
moishe dovid- start a new thread, interesting question. just be prepared for the wrath involved when questioning people’s established habits.May 16, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #768209
Orach chaim siman shin gimmel.
Looks like the trolls are moving in.May 16, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #768210
apy: You said above you’re looking into the Medrash Tanchuma after shachris this morning, and will report back. What were the results?May 16, 2011 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #768211
maishe dovid: You’ve precisely identified a major problem.May 16, 2011 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #768212
i feel that we should be dealing with a total package. we should not only be talking about makeup when sheitels often times draw much more attention to the woman, especially to the younger women who are “in the parsha” and wear the natural hair cuts. these are often so good, that one cannot tell that the hair is being covered. my sister on more than one occasion was approached by someone at a chasunah and asked if she “was bizy”.May 16, 2011 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #768213
@ Pac-Man. We must have crossed each other.
@ Maishe. So, start a thread on sheitels.May 16, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #768214
“my sister on more than one occasion was approached by someone at a chasunah and asked if she “was bizy”.”
So was I. Should I start wearing a tallis to weddings? A wedding band? A red sticker on my forehead?May 16, 2011 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #768215canineMember
It’s vital a woman be immediately identifiable as married. It would be nice for men too, but not as critical. Sinning (even “innocently”) with a married woman is a doomsday scenerio; a married man is bad too, but different.May 16, 2011 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #768216
the point that i am trying to make is wearing a sheitel in most cases defeats the purpose of t’zeus. there was an ad in several of the frum papers several months ago that said in part ” your sheitel can be so good that noone needs to know that you are covering your hair” is this what we as frum yiddin are striving for? we see many times that people are complaining that we are influenced by the “goishie vert” in terms of have we act and think, etc. i find that sheitels are a perfect example of this. the gedolim of previous generations would most likely look aghast at the current state of affairs.May 17, 2011 12:04 am at 12:04 am #768217ShrekMember
I have noticed that frum women can almost always tell whether a woman is wearing a wig or not. Men, on the other hand…should check to see if the woman is wearing a wedding band. (oops, really bad pun.)May 17, 2011 1:41 am at 1:41 am #768218
So don’t buy a sheitel if you feel it isn’t tznius.May 17, 2011 2:31 am at 2:31 am #768219s2021Member
I dont get canine’s post.May 17, 2011 3:19 am at 3:19 am #768220
Apushtayid, look in the beginning of Yishaya about the Bnos Zion and the Gemora in Shabbos which elaborates on it.
And, quite frankly, this matter is obvious. Stop being so riled up about it, when you are on the wrong side of the issue.May 17, 2011 7:38 am at 7:38 am #768221hanibParticipant
who said the inyan of wearing a shaitel is so that people know the person is married? maybe the inyan actually is for the woman to cover her hair?
(obviously, something very long and attraction-getting is not tznius, but not because it looks real, but rather because it is attracting attention to that person, just like bright make-up, certain clothing,etc.).
i’m not a rav, obviously, but i think people have to realize that there are halachos and we do not have to add to them. if someone, for themself, with husband’s agreement, feels that it’s not tznius for them to cover their hair with a shaitel, then fine. but, there are so many other things that we MUST work on (like not doing aveiros and our middos), that it seems silly to add a chumrah when the essentials are not being done.
disclaimer: if they are living somewhere where people do not wear shaitels, then it IS untznius for someone to wear a shaitel in that particular community.May 17, 2011 8:50 am at 8:50 am #768222
MDD. Again, the gemara discusses HOW the women carried themselves, HOW and why they wore perfume. I am not making a case for emulating such behavior. I am making one argument only. Makeup is not inherently untsnius. Neither is perfume, jewelry or clothing. It is how it is used, applied, worn or carried. To argue from the tanchuma (which is a snippet of a sugya in 6th perek of shabbos) or the gemaras elaboration of pesukim in yeshaya to the contrary, is a distortion of the gemaras.
It goes without saying, that if you believe that any of the aforementioned items are in fact inherently not tsnius, don’t use them. Don’t confuse your beliefs, with halacha though.
Again, I asked for a posek who says “makeup is inherently not tsnius” and the obvious implication that it not be used at all. Since I got answers from sources that include perfumes and jewerly, let me add those to the question as well. In fact, the bnos yerushalayim walked the streets of yerushalayim, are you inferring it is assur for them to do so as well? Where are these poskim? (I have no doubt there is a Rav somewhere who made a takana for his tzibbur regarding these things but it is not my question..)May 17, 2011 10:45 am at 10:45 am #768223
I meant to prove that wearing a lot of make-up in public is not tsnius for a married woman. Most sheitels look too good, frankly.May 17, 2011 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #768224
(Yes, I learned to keep my mouth shut after this, yes I learned a lesson in being dan likaf zchus, even when it seems farfetched too)
In reference too “wearing a lot of make-up in public is not tsnius for a married woman.” Waiting for the valet after a chasuna I commented to my wife about a woman standing a few feet away from us who was wearing way too much makeup. I said something to the effect of, if she smiles any wider, whole sections of her face will crack off. Unfortunately, I said it a bit too loud and she heard. She pulled my wife to the side and (my wife reports) proceeded to wipe away makeup from a section of her face revealing a large welt.May 18, 2011 1:43 am at 1:43 am #768226
so what? Just because of those rare situations society at large should compromise tznius? (if one wanted to entertain the possibility that makeup is not–I’m not saying it isn’t)May 18, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #768227
Yid. All I’m saying is that not everyone who wears makeup, even lots of it, does so for nefarious reasons.May 18, 2011 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #768228whatrutalkingabtMember
“if that is true, why is it that many to most wowen would not be caught dead outside without a sheitel (which in many cases is anything but tzuisdig) and find no problem with putting on a snood (which we know is not as flattering) as soon as she comes home?! it would seem to me that the opposite should be the norm”
I agree 100%. The issue of makeup is not as bad as the issue of shaitels. I think the men notice the hair way more than the makeup.
I wish it would be the norm to wear shaitels in the house and snoods outside and where I live now (yerushalayim), I do just that. But when I move back to America…I dont know if I’ll be able to because people in america think of snoods as undergarments or pajamasMay 19, 2011 2:44 am at 2:44 am #768229
Whatrutalkingabt, may you have siyatta di’Smaya to continue.
Aposhutyid, even if a woman does not have badd kavonos, it is wrong for a married woman to wear a lot of make-up as it attracts strange men.May 19, 2011 3:05 am at 3:05 am #768230emlfMember
So, I’m not crazy!
1. While it may not be practical, I very much agree that a shaitel should be inside and a snood outside. Granted, whatever one is wearing, make sure no hair shows! I don’t mean to say I’ll never wear a shaitel outside, but I most certainly agree with the idea behind it!!!!
2. It’s one thing if makeup is used in a natural way – for example, to cover a blemish on the skin. Or if someone is really pale. Etc. But to be made up in such a way that it’s obvious?!
Just my personal take: if all girls (shidduchim-age) didn’t bother with makeup, or only wore an amount necessary to look pleasing (not attracting, rather pleasing – please see what I wrote above), it would be a lot better. More tzniusdik, less involvement in gashmiyus, and frankly, less money spent, too!
I could write more, but I’ll either sound like a broken record or I’ll regret it.May 19, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #768231
MDD. I’m not sure where you live and I dont know what men you are talking about. I can only speak about one man, me. Where I live and work, the only women whose makeup attracts my attention are those who wear as much as Bozo the Clown and use similar colors too.May 19, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #768232adorableParticipant
so then it should be the same thing with a manicure- are they assur because they attract attention to the women’s fingerS?May 19, 2011 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #768233
As long as your nails dont hang 4 inches below your knees, they are probably OK.
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