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With so many tragedies lately r”l, and Gedolim telling us there are signs that this is the generation before Moshiach comes, does anyone know the real signs that would show we really are experiencing ikvesa dimishicha? Can’t the same have been said about the time of the holocaust?
How would we know the scale of time for the ikvesa d’mishicha? People can say it is, but there’s no way to truly know. The time of Mashiach’s arrival is hidden. Rashi states that Yaakov Avinu wanted to tell the shevatim when Mashiach would arrive, and Hashem took away his ruach hakodesh. Do you think Hashem would allow us to know now the time of Mashiach’s arrival?
At the end of the day, we just need to prepare for the arrival of Mashiach every day – achake lo b’chol yom sheyavo. Could the tragedies be ikvisa d’mishicha? Sure, they could. But Rabbonim said at the time of tach tat that Mashiach was coming. It was said at the Holocaust. It was said after the 9/11 attacks. Who knows? Only Hashem, and He’s not telling us! All we could do it prepare ourselves, and pray for Mashiach to come!
Every time a Gadol passes away, Eretz Yisrael is at war, or some Arab country changes leadership, everyone is sure Mashiach will be coming in a few hours. I’ve learned to take that with a grain of salt. Mashiach could come any day.
True. But i dont think you wanna disagree with the likes of the Chofetz Chaim (not saying you are) which say that we are in Ikvisa. We dont know how close, but were definitely close.
The Chofetz Chaim was niftar 81 years ago. Clearly, ikv’sa d’M’shicha is not a short period, and who knows how long it may last?
It is more important that we want him to come than that we know when he will be coming.
This whole concept is completely anti “achakeh lo becho yom sheyavo.”
ETA: I don’t necessarily mean the concept of ikvesa demeshicha, I mean more saying that moshiach can’t come yet because there hasn’t been a real ikvesa demeshicha yet or really stating the thread title’s question: “Is Moshiach’s arrival really imminent?” The ikrei emunah would imply that that’s self-evident.
I do not want to discount those that say that tragedy is a harbinger of moshiach coming but one has to understand how much the frum nation has grown the sheer population explosion means there are more tragedies and more simchos!!
writersoul,
doesnt acheko mean hope (which is what randomex is saying)
I heard that when moshiach comes it will be on the papers
The Rambam in his exposition of the twelfth of the Fundamental Principles of Judaism, writes:
??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????
PAA, there seem to be a lot of mechashvei kitzin round here…
The title of this thread bothers me every time I see it.
The Mods seem to think it’s a fine thread and they’re not removing it, but I wish someone would change the title.
Actually, it bothers me quite a bit. I will try to think of a solution-29
Thanks, 29
coffee, writersoul was emphasizing the b’chol yom she’yavo part (according to my understanding of the pshat ;).
hayom–im b’kolo tishma’u: it will come this very second if we will only listen to the voice of Hashem. -not sure who said it but remember it from high school
First of all, “await” is a better translation than “hope”. Now I think that Coffee Addict misunderstood writersoul. I think that Francorachel3 was saying that people are claiming that the signs indicate that we are in the times before Mashiach, but since these signs have indicated such for a while already, perhaps there are different signs which REALLY indicate that Mashiach’s arrival is immininent. Randomex was pointing out that the time period before Mashiach can be quite a while so there is no proof either way. In other words, it would seem that according to Francorachel3, Mashiach’s arrival is not imminent because there are still pre-Mashiach signs that have to happen whereas according to Randomex Mashiach’s arrival could be imminent but we can’t say so for sure. I think writersoul was objecting to the whole idea Mashiach can’t come unless a whole list of things have happened – he can come anytime.
I will bring the same proof that the Rambam brings (but each of the three people above can construe it as supporting his/her position): R’ Akiva accepted Bar Kochva as Mashiach which means that R’ Akiva thought that Mashiach could come at that point even without checking off the list of pre-Mashiach signs (writersoul) or that the pre-Mashiach signs have been here for 2,000 years (Randomex) or that R’ Akiva misinterpreted the pre-Mashiach signs (Francorachel). The only thing is that if the greatest people for all these years were misinterpreting the pre-Mashiach signs then I’m not sure how asking “does anyone know the real signs?” will accomplish anything. That is my analysis of the debate in this thread. For anyone who is interested, the Rambam in hilchos melachim chapter 11-12 discusses Mashiach and what he has to do and how we can know if he is Mashiach etc.
I will close with the following (hilchos melachim 12:2): ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? (although the first part of the quote is primarily talking about post-Mashiach things).
Instead of saying there are signs that the arrival of Moshiach is imminent, I’d rather say there are signs that the redemption of the Jewish people seems to be under way:
1. After 2,000 years of exile, we are witnessing the return of the Jewish people to the land of Israel – probably the biggest sign of all.
2. The mitzvos are starting to be returned to us, as is evident with the re-emergence of the chilazon and techeiles (yes, I do wear it, especially for this reason).
Remember that the arrival of Moshiach is much more than a person riding up on a donkey and blowing a shofar – it is the redemption of the Jewish people followed by the redemption of humanity.
For me personally, when I think about these happenings, I have a lot more feeling when saying “Ani Ma’amin” – because it seems clearer by the day that Moshiach can arrive at any moment.
We are supposed to serve HaShem Yisborach in this world AS IT IS NOW! When Mashiach comes, he’ll be here. Until then, just live according to the Torah and leave the big questions to HaShem.
Yussel, you only say 12?
The Orchos Tzadikim in Sha’ar Hasimcha says ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ????? which would mean that you have to believe that it will happen in your lifetime. Which might get a little dicey considering it hasn’t happened in the past thousands of years.
I heard in a shuir once that when the people who talk to the dead tried to talk about moshiach then it all stopped and the glass exploded. Very interisting.
I asked a very powerful mekubal this question. He said moshiach would come after I sold my house and gave him the money. So now I’m pretty sure its gonna come any day, but I can’t ask for updates bec I have no money left to pay to see him.
There’s a reason they’re called mekubals and not noseins.
I thought you weren’t cynical.
If that was from the internet you can be guaranteed it’s rubbish as clearly Moshiach hasn’t come yet. I don’t know why everyone believes all these things that are written on these phoney websites. Come on, guys it’s time to wake up, use your senses and stop believing rubbish!
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