August 7, 2014 3:21 am at 3:21 am #613347
I was popping popcorn in a fleishig pot. I have not used the pot in several months, however, it has been sitting full of oil that was used to fry fleishigs the whole time. Before use, I wiped it pretty much dry.
One of the popcorn kernels flew out past the aluminum foil I had covering it, and bounced against my cold empty pareve pot sitting across the stove.
Is my pareve pot still pareve?
Ben yomo? Well, if the oil is fleishig, then it is still there. But, can kavush ever be ben yomo? I forget how that works. I think it can be ben yomo, just can’t make the issur through kavush because won’t be ben yomo.
Suppose yes ben yomo–still the popcorn is a nat bar nat, and one should imagine really a nat bar nat bar nat, since the oil itself was not fleishig–it had beliyos from the stuff I fried in it (I fried kibbeh which is balls of dough with chopped meat inside).
The popcorn is a davar gush, which shows up in hilchos shabbos a lot, but only really in that one shach about the food on the telier. Otherwise, we’d call this an irui kli rishon, which mavliah k’dei klipah.
Tasaa gavar? No, it hit the side. What is the halacha on that? What is gavar?
What happens next time I heat up the pareve pot? There is no chanan issue to be mefaapeah inside.
Is my pot still pareve?August 7, 2014 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1026740SayIDidIt™Participant
Did you clean the pot out with hot water? If yes, the hot water could make the pot a Ben Yomo (cause the dirty stuff can ‘cook’ with the hot water).
Just throwing out a thought.
SiDi™August 7, 2014 4:31 am at 4:31 am #1026741
The popcorn probably was cold by the time it your other pot
also the oil probably dried before 24 hours
& why wouldn’t the oil be genuinely fleishig?
I’d assume wipe off the spot (not that there is one- but it’ll make you feel better) and your good to go
(besides even if it is fleishig- it would be eino ben yomo so the nat bar nat in it wont be a problem)August 7, 2014 5:00 am at 5:00 am #1026742
Maybe cold. I dunno.
The pot was half full with oil.
So i thought of that. But, then how do we ever say that it is nat bar nat when cooked in liquid–doesn’t the food leach into the liquid?
But can I go l’chatchila make stuff in it to eat with milchig?
SIDI: I didn’t clean it at all. Why would I?August 7, 2014 6:02 am at 6:02 am #1026743eparoshParticipant
You left a pot half full of oil for several months??August 7, 2014 6:10 am at 6:10 am #1026744SayIDidIt™Participant
SIDI: I didn’t clean it at all. Why would I?
One word: Yuck.
SiDi™August 7, 2014 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #1026745
eparosh: I thought I might fry with that oil again. But now I needed the pot for making popcorn, so I dumped out the oil.
SIDI: Don’t be ridiculous. I wiped the pot clean of the oil, and it was visually clean and felt clean. Then I heated it on the stove to probably 700 degrees, and I’m sure it killed any surface bacteria. I’m sure it was a whole lot cleaner than whatever you cook with.August 7, 2014 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #1026746dial427436Member
Why are you making popcorn in a pot. Isn’t that why God created microwaves?August 7, 2014 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #1026747
PBA: Tasa’a Gavar means the thing that isn’t moving, not direct top or bottom. I think that’s a Rashba.
Also, I believe there are those who say L’ma’aseh that for there to be any Havla’ah the contact has to last long enough to heat up the Tasa’ah for Yad Soledes Bo.August 7, 2014 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1026748emmetMember
If you were frying Kibbeh, then you may have an issue with ‘Tataah Gavar’, not with ‘Tasaah Gavar’!August 7, 2014 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1026749
Thank you sam
But I seem to recall a shach or taz about next to each other. Maybe in 91?August 7, 2014 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1026750TheReaderParticipant
Nat bar nat might not apply here – as the popcorn could have some of the actual oil on it and this oil touched the parve pot. But, it probably wasn’t hot enough anymore and also it would be botul – considering the amount of the oil to the size of the pot.August 7, 2014 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1026751oomisParticipant
Botul b’shishim?…(this is why we have a Rov to ask such kashas).August 7, 2014 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1026752
Just to clarify- are you assuming that there was more than shishim of the original oil remaining in the pot combined with the new oil?August 7, 2014 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1026753
I asked a rav, but he’s too busy with all you big fat jerks to answer my shailas.August 7, 2014 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1026754
In 105-3 there appears to be a machlokes shach & taz if we’re machmir when not hefsed meruba to say when side by side & the issur is hot that assurs kulo or just klipaAugust 7, 2014 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1026755
In 105-3 there appears to be a machlokes shach & taz if we’re machmir when not hefsed meruba to say when side by side & the issur is hot that assurs kulo or just klipa
I knew that klipos are bad, and that we try to avoid them, but I never figured they are assur!August 7, 2014 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #1026756
Just to clarify- are you assuming that there was more than shishim of the original oil remaining in the pot combined with the new oil?
I’d say there was possibly. I wiped it clean, but presumably there was some residue. And I only added a couple tablespoons of new oil.
However, the old oil was mostly just oil, and only contained a minimal amount of fleish, if you don’t just call that beliyos anyway. And there is no chanan by heter.August 7, 2014 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1026757
PBA: Whoa whoa whoa. Months-old Mamashus is without question Nosein Taam Lifgam.August 7, 2014 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1026758
why wouldn’t the popcorn help?August 7, 2014 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1026759
I dunno about that Sam. Oil is a preservative.August 8, 2014 12:11 am at 12:11 am #1026760yentachayaParticipant
You don’t ask a halachic question in a group forum like this. Call your rav.August 8, 2014 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1026761
Just to be clear, you are worried about Mamashus in the oil on the popcorn directly touching the pot? Or you’re worried about the oil (which itself is only meat via Nosein Ta’am) making the pot meat, which would be a Nosein Ta’am Bar Nosein Ta’am? Meaning anything cooked in the pot is totally fine because it’s a Nosein Ta’am Bar Nosein Ta’am Bar Nosein Ta’am?August 8, 2014 12:57 am at 12:57 am #1026762
I was originally worried about the latter, but am now beginning to be worried about the former as well perhaps.August 8, 2014 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1026763golferParticipant
Yentac, are you kidding? Or you mean that literally?
Call your rav, you say!?
Each and every one of these esteemed CR posters IS a Rav.
In fact, one of them might just be YOUR Rav.
The one you call to find out if your pot is pareve…August 8, 2014 1:33 am at 1:33 am #1026764
If the pareve pot is now fleishig, is it ben yomo?August 8, 2014 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1026765☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
How long after it happened did you post?August 8, 2014 3:15 am at 3:15 am #1026766
PBA: If the latter, there is no issue. If you want to be Machmir boil up a pot of water (you don’t have to wait Ben Yomo) to be M’vatel the NA”T BAR NA”T D’heteira.
If the former, then there is no way there is enough Mamashus of hot meat on a popcorn kernel to affect your pot. If you want to be Machmir you can do a Hagala after Ben Yomo but there’s no way that that’s not Lifgam and… ew.August 8, 2014 3:44 am at 3:44 am #1026767
If you want to be Machmir
How you talk!
Would you say “if you want to keep shabbos?”August 8, 2014 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1026768
PBA: Ah, I see your point. I apologize for ever being Choshesh you to act Shelo K’din. I’ll restate my post.
If the latter, there is no issue.
If the former, then there is no way there is enough Mamashus of hot meat on a popcorn kernel to affect your pot and there’s no way that that’s not Lifgam and… ew.August 8, 2014 4:39 am at 4:39 am #1026769
well kavush needs 24 hr. and then its nosen taam lifgam so at first glance it should be ok.
but wait a second —then how do ou ever have a problem with kavush ? it should always be nosen taam lifgam.
so until we resolve that we cant use my heter.August 8, 2014 5:33 am at 5:33 am #1026770
yikkum: See shach/taz beginning of 105 (I forgot which one discusses it).August 8, 2014 11:35 am at 11:35 am #1026773
wow- there are so many talmidie chachomim in the cr.
but your are all so capable of learning -SO WHY DO YOU WASTE SO MUCH TIME IN THE CR?
I see the same posters ans bloggers day in and dy out- RACHAMAN LITZLANAugust 8, 2014 11:36 am at 11:36 am #1026774
POPPA BAR ABBA = I THINK T WAS THE CRASI UPLACI WHO DISCUSSES ITAugust 8, 2014 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1026776🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
poppa_bar_abba- it’s actually very poshut. When the popcorn was touching the oil, it was still a kernell. When it popped and flew out of the pot, it turned inside out so that the part that hit the pot never touched the oil at all!August 8, 2014 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1026777HaLeiViParticipant
By the way, I really don’t think we say Tata’i Gavar on a pot. We find in the Sugya of Korban Pesach that what touches the walls cooks itself.August 8, 2014 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1026778oomisParticipant
Gamanit – how CLEVER!!!!!!!!August 8, 2014 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1026779
Haleivi: Was the wall hot there?
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