June 17, 2018 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1540763LightbriteParticipant
1. Girls are being raised to believe that their role in life is to be a wife and mother.
2. According to halacha, women are not obligated to get married.
3. Some claim that the excess of marriageable women is contributing to the Shidduch Crisis, since some men are inundated with so many potential matches that bochurim end up delaying marriage, or c”s end up not getting married.
4. What if having less women on the Shidduch market would narrow the dating pool, and make space for more compatible matches early on, where bochurim are more motivated to act while they have the opportunity?
Thank youJune 17, 2018 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1541158
If you accept #1 as being correct (it is), the rest becomes moot.June 17, 2018 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1541172
#1 IS a fact.June 17, 2018 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1541233JJ2020Participant
There are basically an equal amount of boys and girls born. (Very slightly more girls). Therefore whenever a guy gets married so does a girl. For every girl who decides not to get married there will be a boy not married.June 17, 2018 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1541221Midwest2Participant
Sorry guys, but the Torah view is that women are intended to be wives and mothers – and anything else they want. Men are intended to be husbands and fathers and Torah learners, as well as whatever else.
The major driver of the shidduch crisis is simply numbers – more girls than boys on the market at any one time. HOWEVER it doesn’t help that girls are not just admonished to be wives and mothers, they can only marry a guy who’s a lamdan and will sit in kollel until he’s gray. I once tried to red a shidduch for a working guy and the reaction was almost as if I had been advocating for a street sweeper. We have a set formula for what a girl should want, not just a set formula for what the girl should be. If she doesn’t want to spend years as a full-time working mother supporting the family, she doesn’t dare admit it. And if she “settles” for a working guy, she has to worry that her younger sisters may have problems.
I was once in the precincts of one of Brooklyn’s premier local colleges when I noticed a young man in yeshivish dress. He noticed me looking at him, and we got to talking. He felt he had to justify being in college (this was twenty years ago) and told me, “I’m here so that when I get married I can make enough money so that my wife can stay home with the children.” I told him “Yashir koach.”June 18, 2018 9:01 am at 9:01 am #1541344Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Unfortunately, I’ve heard similar such arguments as the OP and it’s really terrible. Basically what it boils down to is “we should just teach girls to be OK with never getting married.”
The human emotion of loneliness has nothing to do with upbringing. These girls didn’t do anything to deserve never getting married.June 18, 2018 9:01 am at 9:01 am #1541349
Midwest2, the Torah view isn’t that they can be whatever they want.June 18, 2018 9:02 am at 9:02 am #1541350Atl123Participant
I think there’s a stigma against working bochrim, Which must be changed. There are plenty of working bochrim who learn everyday and have great middos, but girls won’t look at them because they’re not learning full time.
On the other hand there are plenty of boys who are not cut out for learning full time, but they are scared to go to work because of “shidduchm”. So they stay in yeshiva/kollel (the coffee room……) for a bunch of years doing nothing .
If girls, parents and shadchanim will only recognize that not everyone is cut out for learning full time. And there are many boys who are working who learn everyday and have great middos. There will be a lot more boys available. And a lot more shidduchm.June 18, 2018 9:26 am at 9:26 am #1541422
It’s funny, the working bochurim claim that even though they’re kovea itim, daven with a minyan, don’t watch movies, etc., they don’t get redt shidduchim.
Meanwhile, the girls looking for working boys whio are kovea itim, daven with a minyan, don’t watch movies, etc., claim they can’t find any.
🤔June 18, 2018 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1541624Midwest2Participant
The problem is that everybody is afraid of what other people will say if they “settle” for a working boy. It’s assumed that there must be something “wrong” with the girl, so people will talk, wonder “what’s wrong with the family,” etc. Also, they may worry that it will harm the younger girls’ shidduchim.
The real problem in all this is the parents and their need to keep up appearances. Supposedly the parents do the selecting because the young people themselves aren’t mature enough to choose wisely. Looking over the current scene, I think in many cases the parents are less mature than the kids.June 18, 2018 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1541827hujuParticipant
I have been reading about the so-called Shidduch crisis for years. All the theories about why the Shidduch crisis exists are nonsense. But more important, no one has cited any statistics to confirm that frum Jews are not getting married.
If there is a Shidduch crisis, why is the frum population growing?June 18, 2018 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1541857
If there is a Shidduch crisis, why is the frum population growing?
Because the people who are getting married are having lots of kids.
BTW, from where did you get your statistics that the frum population is growing?June 18, 2018 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1541867Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“If there is a Shidduch crisis, why is the frum population growing?”
The shidduch crisis exists BECAUSE the frum population is growing. How do people still not get this?June 18, 2018 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1541877
The shidduch crisis exists BECAUSE the frum population is growing. How do people still not get this?
That depends how you define the shidduch crisis.
If you define it as not enough shidduchim taking place for the population to increase, then he’s got a good proof.June 18, 2018 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1541880June 19, 2018 12:25 am at 12:25 am #1541907icemelterParticipant
lightbrite-“1. Girls are being raised to believe that their role in life is to be a wife and mother. ”
– really? I thought nowadays girls are raised to believe they can be and do whatever they want in life and most importantly, INDEPENDENT! Youre probably referring to the Torah way Beis Yakov girls who are still left.
Feminism and equality have always been around but never this strong and have already done much damage in changing the way people think.June 19, 2018 12:30 am at 12:30 am #1541897GadolhadorahParticipant
The phrase “working boy” is itself offensive. Throughout our history, men have taken responsibility to live a balanced life that allows them to support their families while engaging in limudei kodesh. It was only the rare exception who was such an outstanding learner that he was encouraged to shteig 24×7 and his wife and their respective families would support them. Today, we have normalized the notion that virtually all bochurim should learn full time with their wives having to earn some money for their parnassah as well as raise increasingly large families. The opportunity to find a “working boy” shidduch who will care for you and your children should be the ideal, not something you “settle for” . To the extent a young woman expects to support her husband while he learns full time, she should take a few years to acquire education and job skills so she can earn a professional salary while working part-time and not have to spend most of her day at minimum wage jobs while she also has children at home who need her attention.June 19, 2018 8:41 am at 8:41 am #1541919LightbriteParticipant
Neville ChaimBerlin: Thank you for your reply. I am really glad that you offered another perspective because I never heard my argument/question before, and you’re right. I am basically saying that maybe not all women deserve to be in a relationship. It also wouldn’t be fair to prevent some women, who might be hesitant about their wants, from exploring Shidduchim.
Much appreciatedJune 19, 2018 8:41 am at 8:41 am #1542037RBS_gimmelParticipant
training girls not to get married?
the unfortunate results of that is that they could become “frei” rapidly.
it is easier for an older boy to remain frum. he can either stay in yeshiva longer, or even in working, he goes to minyan 3x daily, has night chavrusas, shiurim, whatever.
but for an older girl the opportunities are sadly limitedJune 19, 2018 8:42 am at 8:42 am #1542137lesschumrasParticipant
joseph et al ,
Ideal 1: women should be wives and mothers
Ideal 2: women are taught in seminary to
marry and support a full time learner.
Ideal. 3: accomplish both simultaneously without
hiring a nanny or stressing out mentally
and physicallyJune 19, 2018 9:27 am at 9:27 am #1542036hershel2626Participant
One of the problems is that our heads are bashomayim not rooted in day to day olam haze reality. What do I mean by this? An increasing number of apparently normal looking girls are suffering from serious mental health issues that are simply brushed under the carpoet in order to let them find their bashert. What am I talking about: anorexia, bulimia, BPD, post-traumatic stress, to name just a few. These are serious, and I stress the word serious, psychiatric issues. Many of these girls have spent months in inpatient closed psychiatric units. They then present as quite normal except for a small issue that is “well under control”, which is true until the next attack which may come in a day, a month, a year or after they become pregnant, if they can forge that close a relationship with a man. The more astute boys and or their parents find out what the background is and sensibly run a mile. Living with someone who has anorexia or BPD is very very difficult and these are conditions that are extremely difficult to cure. Marriage is just nor for them. They have extreme difficulty in forming and sustaining relationships and most BPD marriages end in divorce. I know my daughter is a sufferer. She is part of the shidduch crisis adding another name to the list of older girls looking for a shidduch. The truth is she is not marriageable. That is an olam haze reality. We still daven daily for a solution from shomayim.June 30, 2019 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1749345RavkahanazadakParticipant
This so called shidduch crisis has little if anything do with age gap.
The premise that girls marry at 19 and boys 23 is very enchanting and sounds wonderful, however for the vast majority of frum couples, this is not the case. Shidduchim is a difficult experience and many boys an girls start at 25, an only a muniriy of girls marry under 21.
The real problem boils down to stigma. I am not talkin from my own experience bug also fom the experience of many people i know.
In many communities the shidduch process has become so complex and insanely judgemental that the vast majority of suggestions are rejected, even before the boy meets the girl. In some communities the following factors can be game changers as to not whether they will get married, but meet up in the first place;
Job of parents, income of parents, siblings school reports, clothing style of boy, vague reports by some witness who claimed to have seen or know the boy, city of origin of the boy, some sin he committed which hashem forgave years ago, shoe style, glasses color, how long snd what place he learned torah in. House of fanily. Style of family. Asthma of 2nd cousin
And the list goes on and on.
Is it a wonder why so many young people are not getting married?
Instead of approaching shidduchim with openness and tolerance(within the framework of halacha of course) positivity and hope, many people coming with artillery oc elimination, of judgement, misbelief and in many cases ,it is the parents themselves who are rejecting one shiduch after another without even consulting the person for who they are looking.
The answer to this crisis is to stop thinking so much and to allow dates to happen.
The problem is not lack of marriages, but lack of dates . It can typically take, in some kehillas, 20 even 50 suggestions until a boy meets a girl. Yes pre checks are often important ,however this whole culture of judgement is ridding boys and girls of hundreds of potential matches. Thd vast majority , although not all, concerns , questions and thoughts will be answered kn the dating itself. Genuine human interaction and emotion provides the answer to everythingJune 30, 2019 8:50 am at 8:50 am #1749351rationalParticipant
“What if having less women on the Shidduch market would narrow the dating pool”
Please read what you write before posting.
This suggestion or even thought is outrageous.
The Jewish people survive because men marry women and the women bear children. Any deviation from this basic tenet is dangerous to the continuity of the Jewish people. Everything else is secondary.June 30, 2019 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1749739HaimyParticipant
Girls have a mitzvah to marry in order to enable boys to be mekayem their mitzva (Ran in Keddushin). The Rambam also states that mederabonon a women should not remain single in order to avoid chashad. There’s no question that al pi hashkofas Torah a women was created to be an Eizer kinegdo & bring children to the world. The fact that tragically this doesn’t always work out doesn’t change the way we should raise our children. We should instead try to solve the problem we are facing.July 1, 2019 12:40 am at 12:40 am #1749775MRS PLONYParticipant
I think that there aren’t enough good boys for all of the good girls. And by ‘good boys’ I don’t necessarily mean learning – I’ve met my fair share of yeshiva bochrim with rotten middos. Maybe the boys think that they don’t have to self improve because for them it’s a buyers’ market?July 1, 2019 10:31 am at 10:31 am #1749897
Mrs P: Au contraire. There aren’t enough good girls. Really it is much easier being a good girl than being a good boy, since far far more is expected of boys in other to be considered to be good. But for a boy to find a girl equally good to himself is hard since there aren’t many.July 1, 2019 10:46 am at 10:46 am #1749902CTRebbeParticipant
You will not solve the shidduch crisis by telling girls to not bother getting married. It would be a good idea to impress upon girls in both high school and seminary that they can still lead productive and fulfilling lives until they get married. Everyone should be prepared for the possibility they will be one of those statistics that will get messed up by the system and think about how they will lead a fulfilling life and be servants of Hashem if they are not married. OVER-emphasizing marriage to girls is a way to lead to miserable erroneously thinking they do not have a life if they are not married.
Also a good idea to teach the basics of emunah and bitachon and how it relates to shiduchim. For some reason everyone talks on and on about the importance of emunah and bitachon but then feels like they can’t make a move without the shiducch boogeyman coming at them with the idea of “how can you do that? Don’t you know its bad for shidduchim?”July 1, 2019 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1749992PhilParticipant
“There aren’t enough good girls. Really it is much easier being a good girl than being a good boy”
More fake news from you. A “good girl” must excel in tzniyus, yiras shamayim, practical Torah knowledge and chesed. If she wants to support a husband in learning, she must also excel in secular knowledge and be prepared to navigate the working world. A “good boy” need do nothing more than stay in yeshiva until he’s married. There’s usually no objective measure of how “good” he is in learning.
If it was so hard “for a boy to find a girl equally good to himself” there would be many more older single boys than girls, yet the exact opposite is true. So are you dismissing them as not being “good girls”? And was your recent heartless comment on another thread, “A majority of Chareidi girls are married before they’re 25” intended as a comfort to the many girls who aren’t? What’s wrong with you?July 1, 2019 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1750003N9NWOParticipant
We have problems larger than just the Frum community. The US is facing a labor shortage. By 2025 half those working now will be retired. Thus there will be pressure to have more young people working.
I wonder how one can study Torah and never be a farmer. Why no Frum farming communities? There would be more than enough time to study Torah yet exposure to the Torah in action.
Also why not have young men become college professors? We have a shortage of US born PhDs. It would not be difficult to have a mix of secular and Torah as part of the program. Plus areas like food science would compliment Torah study.
Just some thoughts.July 1, 2019 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1750011user176Participant
Pray hard. Be open minded. Like any other “crisis” everything is from Hashem. That’s the solution. Nothing unique about not finding a spouse over any other struggle. Girls should not be taught that “it’s ok not to get married” instead we all should be taught to pray, do hishtadlut, and accept what Hashem gives us.July 1, 2019 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1750015mserenParticipant
The most sensible post in this thread is Gadolhadorah’s.
It’s hilarious seeing adults argue about if it’s harder to be a “good” boy or girl. Unless you’ve literally been both, you can’t possibly know.July 1, 2019 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1750049The little I knowParticipant
With all the public discussion about the “shidduch crisis” in our media, conferences, meetings, etc., there have been many ideas proposed to solve it. I have yet to hear any indication that there has been even nominal success with any of the suggested interventions. I might be wrong on this, but there is enough debate on how to assess the “crisis”, what to measure, etc., that finding statistics that indicate progress would be a huge challenge.
I suggest that the focus has been on numbers, or at least perceived numbers. And I am not so sure that trying to change things at a more general level will accomplish anything – except to make one feel as if they are doing something. Maybe each situation is different, and should be addressed individually. There are unmarried boys and there are unmarried girls. It would be counterproductive to try and help an individual with a strategy that would be more appropriate for someone else. Of course, any individual can set standards that are impossible to achieve, and freeze himself/herself out of the market.
Also worth repeating is the notion of the “good” boy or girl. The common uses of the word in the shidduch scene are woefully misleading, and it will take a generation or more to achieve the level of change needed to see young people in a more useful light.
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